The Magnaura

[Warmaster Horus]

Why not?
If the Basileus agrees to it, then it will be done.
Let us wait for the Basileus first, though.

[Ferret]

Are we going to take away land every time an edict is broken? If so, we will be pretty busy.

Manouelitis, you took it upon yourself to punish Methodios. You didn't work through us. And the fact that you have kept the land that you stole from Methodios makes your actions look... opportunist...

As for everyone who is cheering you on, I never saw those same people demand Rhodes back from Hypatios when he exterminated thousands of people.

It seems to me that people who are using the excuse of Methodios's sacking of Alexandria are going after him for personal reasons.

This body sat on it's hands when the Caesar broke the "rules." And now, when Methodios breaks an edict, the Senate wakes from it's slumber and bangs it's gavel in the name of justice.

Even Hypatios got off easier than this and his crime was far worse.

I am very much for punishing people who sack and exterminate. And I am very much for punishing people who break edicts and rules. But we need to be consistent and not let our personal feelings for the law breaker color our better judgment.

I hardly got off easier, Tagaris is losing a piece of land miles away from where his interest lies, he still has ownership of another piece of land and still is part of his house. A house is worth more than land, especially if you have two pieces of land already. Anyway Manouelitis needs the land, Tagaris doesn't, and what Manouelitis did was within the law, why should he have to give it back?

[_Tristan_]

Scopia may be far away from Egypt but it still has a lot of worth in my eyes simply bacause it was bequeathed to me by Kosmas... And I have to disagree with you, how can a House be more important than land ? Without land, there is no hope of ever seeing one's House grow... A landless House is worthless... It will never field an army to defend its part of the Empire, it will not be able to recruit new members...

If I hear you well you would want to restrict Senators to the right of holding only a single province, I doubt those those concerned would be willing to surrender them to landless senators without any counterpart in the form of an oath. Or is it just me that you want to bar from holding two provinces ?

And I will concur with our megas : you got off easier... You cut a bloody swath through Anatolia and all you had to suffer was your Lord and vassals turning their backs on you... I might add that it was not long before you found a comforting shoulder, by the way... So tell me how harsh this was for a punishment ?

Finally, who are you to say who needs land and who don't ? And who are you to say that Manouelitis is more deserving of land than say Aristenos over there ?

The difference I see is that Aristenos will await an opportunity to claim his land honourably, while the other disnonorably created an opportunity where there was none...

[ULC]

"I agree with the assertion the Basileus should decide when land is in dispute. Deciding between House members or even other Houses creates a biased view on whom should acquire the settlement in dispute. I will raise a point though, Nikiphorus, that you are in rather tenuous arguing position. It was taken underhanded, something unto itself goes against the very House charter you said Methodios broke, so be careful of hypocrisy. Second, you have no House to belong to, and as such lack real support. Third, your claims on Scopia are weak, if only because you are so far from it. Fourth, you yourself have set a precedence for "theft". To me, your words are laden with ill logic and little substance when you say we must take a stand now. If we are to take stand on doing what is right, we should do it through just process and not set a standard for vigilantism or underhanded tactics, as it leaves us no better then whom we are prosecuting. Leave that to the men who belong to this "Organization".

[flyd]

So let the Basileus rule on this, but one thing is clear, we need better enforcement of Senate Edicts, and more importantly, punishment stated in advance, especially in case of this contentious settlement capture issue. I would think a charter amendment at the next Senate session that says something like this would be appropriate:

If a settlement is captured in violation of any valid Edict or Charter section, the settlement will automatically be forfeited to the Basileus. If it was the Basileus who performed the violation, the fate of the settlement may be decided by a normal Edict at the next Senate session.

This way, people will know the consequences, and it will be a good deterrent against violating the will of the Senate, at least when it came to settlements. It's still up the Senators to gain support to pass an anti-sacking Edict, or prevent the capture of certain cities, or whatever other legislation would be applicable to settlements, but once they do, it will mean something.

[_Tristan_]

I, for one, would be in favour of such a legislation to be proposed... Edicts that run the risk of being broken should state penalties from the start like any decent text of law. This way, law-breakers and enforcers alike will know what to expect.

I am glad to see that some apples have fallen farther from the tree in the Komnenoi family... (bowing to Isaakios Komnenos)

[Privateerkev]

While I applaud the motives behind the idea, I don't see why rewarding the Emperor is the appropriate way to punish exterminations. So basically, some future Emperor will be able to convince some lackey to exterminate territories. The Emperor then gets that territory and the lackey gets off scot-free. He might even get the territory down the road. I see it as one of the pieces of legislation that has good intentions but will probably have unexpected consequences down the road.

The young senator is new to this place and needs to realize that laws we pass will ripple far into the future.

[ULC]

Hmm...you do not disagree with the spirit of it Grandmaster Makedonios? Then I am sure you would find it acceptable if we continue this line of though and iron out solid legislation for the punishment of breaking Edicts and Charters?

[Privateerkev]

Of course.

I think there should be punishment for the breaking of edicts and rules. But rewarding one person doesn't seem to be the answer. Now, our current Emperor has a strong record on condemning sacking. And the Caesar's reputation for chivalry is well known. But what happens if we get someone like Anastatios or Hypatios as Emperor? Do you really think they will hesitate to send out lackeys to sack and exterminate in order to get themselves some easy settlements?

Perhaps a CA that says, "If you break an Edict, you will have 1 less influence at the next vote."

I admit I haven't looked deep into this so I don't know if it would be totally legal but we have a good amount of time before the next session to iron it out.

[ULC]

Well, may I propose the idea that there be a mandatory freeze, for as yet determined amount of time and regardless of the current Megas's political alliances or House he belongs to, to all the recruitment and/or building within the violator's House? This is only rough idea, nothing concise yet, but to me, inter-house pressure can be much more effective at curbing law breaking, as Senator Nikiphorus has shown.

[Privateerkev]

That could be interesting as it might force the violator's House to expel them so they don't suffer the consequences. But as we saw with Hypatios, there will always be another House willing to take that person in.

Unless, we made it last for so many turns and it would effect what ever feudal chain the violator happens to be in. Which would have the effect of making them an outcast.

It might need to be hammered out some more but this might be a better idea than the -1 influence idea.

[ULC]

Him, so therefore we target the person, and by proxy whatever feudal chain he is a part of? Should we make it last one whole Megas term, per past offense, so repeat offenders must wait longer each time the violate the law?

[AussieGiant]

Apionnas shakes his head slightly.

I for one will not support this type of CA.

It is short sighted and has far reaching consequences of an undesirable nature.

By codifying through a CA certain punishment for breaking edicts and other CA's simply locks us into set punishments for a wide variety of breaches.

Having a set punishment for edicts that might be as small as not providing enough Priest in a certain area, as apposed to defying an anti Sacking edict that could result in ten's of thousands of lost lives is totally inappropriate.

Any failings to date for not punishing those nobles that have defied this Chamber, is a consequence of the men here and our ability OR INABILITY to find consensus!!

Edicts and CA's are few and far enough between to quite easily pass the appropriate follow up edicts regarding punishment based on what has occurred. Not some formula or set list which given the creativity of the breaches I have seen so far will be entirely inadequate.

It's very simple my lords. Gain agreement on a topic and then pass further edicts as a response to the breaching of previous one's. They can therefore be handled in a proportional fashion and then go to vote to then prove it's appropriateness by the backing of the required number of senators.

We have more than enough regulations. In fact we have enough to nearly seize this Empire like sand on a greased axle!!

Those that propose to include a punishment in their edict run the risk of it not passing because of that section of the edict in itself. You could in fact have a very good piece of legislation but it simply fails because there is no support for your preset, premeditated penalty for non-compliance.

I rue the day where we must all bring with us a battery of lawyers to simply hold a conversation.

Our job is to govern, not pay legal fees!! One day there will probably be more lawyers in the world than prostitutes!!

With that Apionnas shows one of the few signs of emotion, by slamming his fist down on the Magnaura bench. It startles the Protoasecretes just enough to wake him, glancing about in some alarm. Clearly seeing no mortal danger to anyone present he promptly goes back to dozing, muttering something about young folk and not being civil to one another.

[flyd]

Appionas,

You make some good points, but the fact is that this body has been ineffective in enforcing its own Edicts, and will continue to be so. The problem is that most real punishment requires a charter amendment. If a punishment amendment was voted on after the fact, people would vote strictly along political alliance lines. I know you know that is true. That means that anyone who has at least 1/3 of the Senate as allies can do whatever he wants. Certainly, each Edict could specify its own punishment, but that would likely make it necessary to be an amendment, and make it more difficult to pass. The usefulness of simple Edicts is in serious question at this stage, and this body is much weaker than the Emperor, Megas Logothetes, and the Houses. And that is quite the shame, because this is the only one pillar of our government that requires cooperation from everyone. This isn't about lawyers, it's about Senators. They write laws, you know.

[AussieGiant]

An edict is far more workable solution and has a better chance of passing.

I would simply use those as the most appropriate way of determining the appropriate type of punishment for what has occurred.

CA's are much harder to pass, and anyones ability to write a comprehensive, forward thinking, dare I say future predicting set of punishments based on incidents that have not even occurred, is highly unlikely. In fact nearly impossible.

I'll say again, anyone's dissatisfaction at the lack of response to the breaching of edicts and CA's should first look at the lack of momentum already seen here to date. To think that a CA outlining set punishments and fines could or should pass, is not keeping the apathy of this august body in mind.

[OverKnight]

Aleksios speaks:

If I have followed the debate correctly: The ownership of the territory of Scopia is in doubt, contested between Methodios Tagaris and Nikiphoros Manouelitis. Senator Tagaris inherited it from the late Senator Mavrozomis. Then, in an effort to start a new House, he gave the territory to Senator Manouelitis. However, Senator Manouelitis objected to the sacking of Alexandria and attempted to use Senator Tagaris's own House laws to expell him from the new House. Eventually this was resolved by Senator Manouelitis leaving the House entirely. Senator Tagaris wants Scopia back because he feels Senator Manouelitis accepted it in bad faith, while Senator Manouelitis feels keeping Scopia would punish Senator Tagaris for the sack of Alexandria.

Is this an accurate summation?

It now seems both parties have asked me to arbitrate in this dispute. Is this accurate as well?

If both parties wish me to resolve the dispute and both are willing to accept my judgement, then I do not see why we would need to involve Edicts or such.

[OverKnight]

Aleksios consults with the Protoasecretes and then speaks again:

In truth I find that ruling over a highly legalistic land dispute bores me. I would like to propose another solution: A Chariot Race, let God decide the outcome through a bit of sport. We have not had a race in a long time, and I feel such a diversion would lift the rather oppressive mood that has plagued the Senate the past few years.

The race will be a standard one, with four charioteers. Senator Tagaris will split the four into two teams, two charioteers to a side. Senator Manouelitis will then select one of the teams to champion his cause, with the other going to Senator Tagaris.

Whoever's charioteer comes in first, then that Senator will receive Scopia. However, if the Senators accept this proposal, they will both swear to accept the outcome as final without resorting to violence, and will release each other from any oaths of fealty (OOC: No civil war, no 5 year wait to reswear win or lose).

Is this acceptable to both Senators Manouelitis and Tagaris?

[deguerra]

I quite agree with the Emperor, that if both sides are happy to have him arbitrate, we need not go into edicts, which as many have correctly pointed out, bring their own peculiar difficulties.

I state once again, that we have been most unsatisfactorily ineffective in punishing even the most heinous crimes. Hypatios was punished, but he was punished by House Asteri, not the Senate. You could easily have sought further punintive measures against him, but you did not. I refuse to let people say he went unpunished, espeically when those people could have asked for more had they chosen to do so.

However, just because we failed consistently, does not, in my opinion, provide an excuse to continue failing and to attempt to undermine attemps at justice, even if they are a little unorthodox. I would like to stress at this point that Strator Nikiphoros never broke the law, not even the more informal laws of his house. Yes, he did not offer vassalship in good faith, but to be frank, people have done worse.

But that is for the Basileos to decide, and I for one will accept his judgment.

I agree with those calling for an edict, that we need a more consistent approach to punishment, and that it should be formalized. However, I agree with those against an edict that one edict cannot possibly satisfy all the possibilities, nor that making it extensively legalistic is desireable. So long as the parties can agree on an arbitrator, I suppose the problem will not arise. If they cannot, however, then the Senate MUST act.

As an aside, why would you kill me, Nikiphoros?

[flyd]

If it comes down to a chariot race, I would like to see Tagaris and Manouelitis drive the chariots and use their own horses. If it will be a competition, better make it a test of skill and bravery, not a test of picking the best chariot team.

[pevergreen]

Michail's head shoots up at the mention of a chariot race.

"Isaakios, I must disagree. It seems that the fairest way to resolve this is chance. I applaud the Emporer in finding such a balanced way to determine ownership of such a province."

[Motep]

Andronikos looked at Michail, and could hardly keep the mirth from his face.

A chariot race sounds like a fine idea to me.

As to general punishments, I believe that we should have a three point policy. The first offense will suffer small lossess on the offender's part, the second with stiff penalties, and the third with exile. Of course, all of these are dependant on the nature of the crime, and the extent of the consequences suffered by the community due to the offense.

Anyways, we should follow fair and predermined guidlines for punishment, which will be adhered more appropriately due to the nature and depth of the crime.

[_Tristan_]

Methodios bows to the Basileos.

I see decadence is already almost upon us when our jurisdiction becomes a matter of a thrown dice, or a chariot race for that matter...

Panem et circenses said our Roman ancestors, bread and games... Methodios slowly shakes his head.

Surely this will help us think of something else than the barely averted civil war or the continuing threat of the Jihad...

Anyway the will of the Basileos is my bond...

A race it will be... May Fate favour the Just...

[Warmaster Horus]

If it is the will of the Basileus, then it will be a chariot race.

Ioannis, I said that in jest. Being in your army gives me a good opportunity to act with/against you. I would have said the Caesar, but his dog - err, friend - Kantakouzinos would have jumped on that.

[Kagemusha]

Kantakouzinos looks in the direction of Nikiphoros Manouelitis and replies to his insult by laughing to his statement and saying.

"Has the puppy grown teeth,when it has now guts to bark at dogs?"

[Ramses II CP]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(This is a brief coop with AG)

OOC: This bit is, of necessity, backdated somewhat to before the rebellion of Cairo and the capture of Thebes, but I wanted a definitive track of the passage of certain information.

IC:

Seeing the war effectively concluded by a treaty and the Caesar denied his Imperial term as Megas, Vissarionas ek Lesvou stands to leave the Magnaura.

As Vissa departs from the Magnaura, Apionnas can be seen rising from his seat and making his way towards his fellow noble. They confer breifly and something is exchanged.

Without pausing further Vissa exits the Magnaura and boards a ship to Egypt.

[Ignoramus]

Ioannis Komnenos rises to speak and looks angrily at Makedonios.

I wish to complain about the treatment of the Komnenodoukai. Apart from the walls of Yerevan, which, I might add, were prioritised by me, not a single building has been built so it our lands this term.

You all remember how the Order whined and complained that I supposedly treated them unfairly during my tenure, and yet now they have proved themselves to be hypocrites.

Doubtless, the Ksanthopoulos will attempt to justify himself by claiming that the Order's lands are in more urgent need of development. However, I wish to remind the Magnaura that we have over 9,000 florins sitting in the Imperial Treasury. For what? Emergencies? Even this is absurd, as the empire rakes in around 9,000 florins every two years.

This is nothing but a deliberate attempt to weaken my power. The Megas Logothetes and his lapdog, Kalameteros, have been long plotting my removal, and seek nothing more than that aim. If you do not realise that, then I fear that the decadence of our newly found prosperity has corrupted us all as it did in the days of Caesar.

And who can forget the Ksanthopoulos' enthralling message of hope on the Roman dream? A balanced empire he said. A balanced empire with its capital at Antioch and having the splendor of a bald monk.

Will those of you who are not in his pay realise that all along he has been steering the direction of the Order towards independence from Constantinople? He refused to swear to my father publically, when almost the whole the Magnaura did. He rebuked one of his vassals for swearing to my father. Surely it is such an ungodly and unchivalrous act to swear fealty to one's emperor? But then again, Ksanthopoulos knows all about chivalry. He knows how to massacre the inhabitants of a city, and take its citizens' wealth for his own. And such was the foundation for the reestablishment of Roman authority over Antioch. And this honourable man, displaying all the true characteristics of a worthy chivalrous noble, argued so forcefully for the punishment and exile of a certain Hypatios Manchinos, whose only moral crime was to slaughter a few thousand more than this illustrious man. And this man too, was perfectly just to call for Manchinos' exile, for had not he himself atoned for his sins by a simple and concise apology? But Ksanthopoulos is an honourable man, and so are they all, all honourable men.

Ioannis resumes his seat.

[_Tristan_]

Pardon, your Highness, but seeing how you planned to lead us to civil war, I think it was some good planning on our Megas' part to prevent you from gaining anymore power than you already asserted for yourself during our own term as Megas.

I have not taken a thorough look at things but I would advise our Megas to try and maintain the balance if it is truly lacking, now that our Caesar has proferred apologies and and laid to rest his plans.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

A lot of noise and loud shouts are heard from the hallway. Suddenly the doors open and two Varangian Guards fly through the air and land on the floors of Magnaura. A very tall man enters the Magnaura and shouts..

I am not.. hkk.. a Senator??!! I'll show you what.. hkk.. I am!!

Trying to get his sword he loses the balance and falls on the floor. Quickly four Varangians are upon him and trying to hold the man down. But they are thrown away like they are nothing. The man stand up again and shouts to the guards...

I am Theo-what-ever-the-rest-of-my-name-was Petzeas!!! I am Senator of this country!!

Theo calms down and looks like he is thinking. Then with a quiet voice he asks..

What country is this anyway??

One of the scribes answer..

You are in Constatinople, Byzantium. And this man here is truly a Senator. Theophylaktos Petzeas.

The last words were for the Varangians who after hearing that back down and let Theo to take a seat..

Now.. hkk.. could someone bring me some wine and some woman?

[Privateerkev]

The Caesar is quite mistaken.

It seems he fails to read even basic Megas Reports.

Here is my report for 1126:

Yerevan: The Prioritized Wooden Walls were started. And all repairs have been made.
Athens and Bucharest started grain markets.
Dardenellia and Trebizond started Land Clearance.
Tbilisi started a small chapel and Corinth started a Chapel.
Sinop started a port.

Komnenodoukai settlements are in bold. The Caesar says, "Apart from the walls of Yerevan, which, I might add, were prioritised by me, not a single building has been built so it our lands this term."

Really Caesar? Only one building? My report, if you had bothered to read it, says otherwise.

Go and look at the settlements and you'll see the truth in what I speak. I have built far more for the Komnenodoukai in 4 years than you built for the Order in 15.

And 9000 florins sit in the treasury because I haven't gotten to spending what we made this year. You all make your moves first, then I spend money. That is how 'turns' work.

I have been spending every florin every 'turn' on armies and improvements. I detail this in my reports. Almost every settlement in the Empire has had construction in the last 4 years.

As for the Caesar's blatant fear-mongering, it is baseless. I swore to our current Emperor in private. The Emperor has never contested this. The Caesar never liked how I swore to his father. Well, too bad. That was between me and his father. And the Caesar knows this but loves bringing it up in order to paint me as a traitor. As for 'rebuking' one of my vassals, that is a bold faced lie.

The Caesar is the one that planned a civil-war that would destroy the Empire and make him despot over it's shattered hulk. He is now just bitter that the Senate has spoken with a clear voice against him.

And I see the Caesar likes bringing out the tired trope of Antioch. We all know what happened there. While regrettable, I never gave the order to sack. Hypatios however, willfully, and gleefully raped and murdered thousands of people. And not just in violation of our morals, but in direct violation of our laws. Not that the Caesar cares much for our laws...

Makedonios then walks across the chambers until he is twenty feet from the Caesar. He speaks to him but it is loud enough to be heard by all.

The next time you come at me like this, try using the truth...

[Warmaster Horus]

Heavy footsteps are heard outside the Magnaura. The doors burst open, and an angry-looking Nikiphoros charges in the Senate Chamber. He locates Michail Arianitis, goes to him, and begins to raise a fist. One of the Varangian Guard moves quickly enough to show Nikiphoros whatever he intends to do is a bad idea. The angry Senator backs off, sighs, and addresses the chamber:
"Senators, please excuse me just there. Arianitis, I don't give a #%$& if you excuse me, because I will never forgive you for involving yourself in the business of Scopia. It was for me and Tagaris to solve, and the Basileus generously tried to help us do it. When he found an adequate solution, and that solution was accepted by both Tagaris and me. You however went against the Basileus' solution.
I want the Senate to understand that by doing that Arianitis is breaking your oath of fealty to the Basileus. He may have another Lord, but our first allegiance must be to the Basileus.
In the same order of business, it is obvious Arianitis was conspiring with somebody. Before the race, he sent me a letter:"

Dear Sir,

If the Chariot Race to determine Scopia's owner goes ahead, I would like to know your plans?

Do you want to have Scopia to yourself or deny your enemy of it?

If the latter, I may be able to work out a solution to your problem.

Yours in God,
Michail.

The letter is first read by Nikiphoros. Copies are handed out by scribes to the Senators.
"I did not reply to it, since it implied methods of an illegal nature. However, by what has transpired, I get the feeling Arianitis sent this to another person directly involved with this. I get the impression, also, that the decision was to deny me of Scopia. I think you realize who I am talking about.
Senators, I find this situation shameful. I hope we can solve it quickly and in the fairest manner."
Nikiphoros starts to leave, and then turns around:
"And if there are any more competitions. I will participate in them myself, and I ask Tagaris to do so too. It seems that's one solution to this problem."