The Magnaura

[_Tristan_]

Monomachos, by giving that land to the Basileus to do with it as he sees fit, I cannot see how it will deny that land to any House...

True, it might rob your House of that coveted land if the Basileus does not see fit to grant it to your House but I would trust the judgement of our Overlord to use that land as best benefits our Empire.

Moreover, your own allegiances are not so clear. Do your House have any guarantee that you will not break your oath once Dyrrakhion is taken and bring it to the Tepaki House to which you seem to also have pledged your "future" allegiance ?

[The Lemongate]

Of course. Why would the Emperor deny his permission? It does not address the point which is that Tagaris acts in bad faith and that the only goal of his legislation is to negate the rightful objectives of people whose faith in him he betrayed. He might have always been independent in public, but in private he had pledged himself to House of Asteri, and it is in its halls that he learned of the tactical situation of Durazzo.

If Tagaris would come out clean about his plans for the settlement, no Edict would be needed at all. Monomachos and I are not madmen (Anastasios gives a worried look towards Monomachos and sighs), and an accord could easily be reached concerning Durazzo. But the way he is acting now leaves us with little trust in the man.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Monomachos, by giving that land to the Basileus to do with it as he sees fit, I cannot see how it will deny that land to any House...

True, it might rob your House of that coveted land...

So you cannot see how it will deny us land, but you do see how it will rob us. How delightfully ironic.

If the Basileus does not see fit to grant it to your House but I would trust the judgement of our Overlord to use that land as best benefits our Empire.

I'd prefer the Emperor speak in his own name, thank you very much. This appeal to authority is yet another rhetorical device which is simply a tactic and nothing more.

I am not a fool to be cowed by rhetoric. Let the Emperor speak for himself and stop acting as if you were him.

Moreover, your own allegiances are not so clear. Do your House have any guarantee that you will not break your oath once Dyrrakhion is taken and bring it to the Tepaki House to which you seem to also have pledged your "future" allegiance ?

More red herrings. Since your own allegiances don't enter into the discussion, why do mine?

Stop changing the subject and address my point. You seek to deny my house and my right to claim lands for the empire and for my house. Plain and simple. Don't dare weasel out of it.

[Kagemusha]

The edict has been proposed and seconded. There is no need to argue about it by words. Let the votes show how the senate feels, for my part i would support the edict in its new form also, but it doesnt need more seconders.

[_Tristan_]

I care not for you trust, Neokaisareitis...

The Edict as it is worded now leaves ample leeway for the Basileus to choose whomever He likes to capture Dyrrakhion...

I truly hope I will be chosen but I will bear no grudge to any of you chosen for the task...

Can you say that much ?

[Askthepizzaguy]

The edict has been proposed and seconded. There is no need to argue about it by words. Let the votes show how the senate feels, for my part i would support the edict in its new form also, but it doesnt need more seconders.

I was unaware this wasn't a deliberative body whose sole purpose is to debate and make laws.

I will not be silenced by any man other than the Emperor himself. I am exposing this legislation for the feeble attempt to deny houses their right to expand that it is. None so far have been able to counter that accusation, and it still stands.

[Kagemusha]

I was unaware this wasn't a deliberative body whose sole purpose is to debate and make laws.

I will not be silenced by any man other than the Emperor himself. I am exposing this legislation for the feeble attempt to deny houses their right to expand that it is. None so far have been able to counter that accusation, and it still stands.

Efstratios Monomachos.All i have said has been my personal opinion. As far as i am concerned i can give out my opinions as senator of this Senate. If you dont trust the Basileos to be fair in his rule, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

[_Tristan_]

Since your own allegiances don't enter into the discussion, why do mine?

Stop changing the subject and address my point. You seek to deny my house and my right to claim lands for the empire and for my house. Plain and simple. Don't dare weasel out of it.

You were first to question my allegiances... Reason enough for me to question yours... As for my own allegiances, I have answered and will maintain that I have one at this point and do not envision to have some anytime soon.

I will say it once and for all my plan is not intended to deny your House of any land, though I can see that can be the unfortunate result of my Edict.

Lastly, let me say that the Head of your House was informed of the proposed Edict long before it was formulated before this House but has not seen fit to come forward with any observation concerning it...

[Andres]

I don't care what house you do or do not belong to. The fact is you're proposing an edict to deny other houses the right to claim lands, and it's being suspiciously supported by ALL THE MEMBERS of a certain house.

Which House exactly? Can you make a list of all the members of that particular house and refer to the statements where each individual member supported the Edict as you claim?

You seek to deny me and my house and my colleagues the right to claim rebel provinces which we have staked a claim to for a long time now. That's all you're doing, and it's the only purpose of this edict, plain and simple. You can disguise it as "serving the emperor" all you want, but I see through your deceptive ways.

You could at least be honest. Just tell us you don't want us taking Durazzo for our house. At least be a man and own up to your political ambitions.

The Edict stipulates that the Basileus will be the one who will judge over the faith of Durazzo.

Please, tell us why won't you trust the judgement of our Emperor in this matter?

Are you implying that the Basileus is incompetent?

Savvas stares at Strator Monomachos

[Askthepizzaguy]

Efstratios Monomachos.All i have said has been my personal opinion. As far as i am concerned i can give out my opinions as senator of this Senate. If you dont trust the Basileos to be fair in his rule, that is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

You can give out your opinions but dont attempt to silence mine. And why does your political faction insist on speaking as if they were the Basileos? Until he declares that you have the right to speak in his name I will continue to ignore your claims that this is his will, and any attempt by you or your allies to speak for him.

You were first to question my allegiances... Reason enough for me to question yours... As for my own allegiances, I have answered and will maintain that I have one at this point and do not envision to have some anytime soon.

I will state again: I don't care what your allegiances are. They don't enter into this discussion in my mind. If I was originally mistaken as to which house you belonged to, that point is long past us, and it makes no difference to me.

I will say it once and for all my plan is not intended to deny your House of any land, though I can see that that be the unfortunate result of my Edict.

Such honourable intentions... why would I object to denying my house land, with such good intentions.

The road to hell is paved with them.

Lastly, let me say that the Head of your House was informed of the proposed Edict long before it was formulated before this House but has not seen fit to come forward with any observation concerning it...

It doesn't matter to me whom you spoke to. The head of the House of the Asteri has already granted me my leave and that house does not speak for me.

My point remains unanswered. WHY IS THIS EDICT NECESSARY?

Why can we not simply claim rebel provinces for the empire? What business of yours is it which ones I take, especially if you don't seek them yourself?

[The Lemongate]

Anastasios is clearly losing his temper. His voice grows louder and his hands wave about to punctuate his speech.

This is a floor of debate. If there is no point in arguing, why should we even be here in the first place!

Senators, I am tired of this rhetoric. You are either blinding yourselves willingly to this man’s dishonesty – and do not make me get the charters of our House to prove it, or some of you actually have unmentionned accords with this man, which you should think about twice, seeing as he has already crossed a fine line between a simple change of heart and an odious betrayal!

Secondly, the willingness to gift land to the Emperor is commendable, but the Emperor has his own lands and his own armies. I would never act against him or deny him in any way as he is my Lord before God, but he has no need for the handful of pitiful mud houses that make up Durazzo! Some bright, up and coming Senators, on the other hand, who are not busied with the ruling of the greatest Empire our world has known, can devote all their time and attention to develop Epirus and gain position and status to enable them to lead imperial forces for the greater glory of the Empire and it’s Basileos!

Vindictive diplomacy is the action of cowards!

I would have Tagaris speak with me or Monomachos privately about this affaire, and we could all… answer for our actions and ambitions.

Surely Senators, you can see the validity of discussion this point between men, rather then rashly throwing about legislation!

[Askthepizzaguy]

Which House exactly? Can you make a list of all the members of that particular house and refer to the statements where each individual member supported the Edict as you claim?

Yes, which house indeed. Look at your blue shield and white cross and tell me which house.

The Edict stipulates that the Basileus will be the one who will judge over the faith of Durazzo.

Please, tell us why won't you trust the judgement of our Emperor in this matter?

Are you implying that the Basileus is incompetent?

Savvas stares at Strator Monomachos

Is that the best you've got? Your sole argument is that you speak in the name of the Emperor, and until he confirms that, it's total rubbish.

Yes, give me more bits of false logic to argue against. You claim to speak in the name of the Emperor, and all who question the emperor are traitors. Yes, this tactic has been used to silence critics many times.

Why don't you just ask me something equally loaded and ridiculous, like why I hate God so much, or if my parents know that I am gay. You bring false assumptions and illogical statements, and nothing more.

If another person questions my allegiance to the emperor because I oppose this legislation, I will ask them if they have been schooled in rhetoric or sophistry.

[_Tristan_]

Methodios Tagaris is seen scribbling a note and passing it to one of the Senate officials.

[Kagemusha]

Monomachos, restrain yourself. If you are calling words of Senator rubbish without any proof, you are insulting the office of Senator. You can call Tagaris a lier or that he speaks rubbish if the Basileos denies that he has consented the edict Tagaris proposed. But your current words say nothing else then disrespect towards office of Roman senator, while calling his words rubbish without any evidence of lies.

[The Lemongate]

Looking directly at Tagaris, Anastasios hisses:

You show a troubling lack of willingness to cooperate Tagaris! This is the third time I ask for your cooperation on this matter! THIRD! And yet you ignore me. If your aims are indeed worthy, then you should not be afraid to discuss them in a civilized manner.

[Andres]

Yes, which house indeed. Look at your blue shield and white cross and tell me which house.

My dear colleague. There's no need to be rude. I asked a simple enough question. Please answer it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: Don't worry about being "rude". I'm actually enjoying this

Is that the best you've got? Your sole argument is that you speak in the name of the Emperor, and until he confirms that, it's total rubbish.

Yes, give me more bits of false logic to argue against. You claim to speak in the name of the Emperor, and all who question the emperor are traitors. Yes, this tactic has been used to silence critics many times.

Don't put words in my mouth that I never have spoken. I never claimed that I am speaking in the name of our Emperor. Our Emperor is capable of speaking for himself.

Are you implying that our Emperor cannot speak for himself? Are you yet again implying that our Emperor is incompetent?

I'm merely trying to explain that the Edict lets the Emperor decide on the fate of Durazzo, no more no less and you seem to be opposed to that.

That's why I say that I find your lack of trust in the competence of our Basileus hightly disturbing.

[TinCow]

Senator Monomachos, are you insinuating that the House of the Tagamata is intentionally trying to prevent your House from acquiring Durazzo? If so, that is ridiculous. There are four members of Tagamata, and only two of us have spoken up on this issue. Furthermore, I initially attacked Senator Tagaris believing that his legislation was made for personal reasons! You have lost all sense of reasoning if you think that Tagamata is somehow conspiring against your House. Speaking of which, which House exactly are you loyal to? Since I am apparently part of some conspiracy against your House, it would be useful for me to know who I should be attacking.

[Askthepizzaguy]

My dear colleague. There's no need to be rude. I asked a simple enough question. Please answer it.

By my count, your house has at least two members seconding this legislation, and several others, some of whom have declared "no allegiance". Interesting that this legislation could be used to deny our house a province, which could benefit yours.

And to think I was considering cooperation with your house for our mutual expansion. Now I see my gestures of cooperation and friendship will be spat upon by the greedy.

Don't put words in my mouth that I never have spoken. I never claimed that I am speaking in the name of our Emperor. Our Emperor is capable of speaking for himself.

Your faction continues to imply that the Emperor is the one who wants this legislation passed, without proof, and you continue to call me a traitor for opposing it.

And you continue to use this false argument:

Are you implying that our Emperor cannot speak for himself? Are you yet again implying that our Emperor is incompetent?

I'm merely trying to explain that the Edict lets the Emperor decide on the fate of Durazzo, no more no less and you seem to be opposed to that.

That's why I say that I find your lack of trust in the competence of our Basileus hightly disturbing.

This is nothing more than accusing me of being a traitor rather than explaining ONCE AND FOR ALL WHY THIS LEGISLATION IS NECESSARY!!!

What exactly will be lost by allowing my house or my allies to claim Durazzo? If you want it for yourself JUST SAY SO.

Monomachos, restrain yourself.

When I am done being accused of traitorism, and people finally stop putting words in the Emperor's mouth, and those who seek to deny my house their rightful claims explain why, then I will restrain myself and not before.

If you are calling words of Senator rubbish without any proof, you are insulting the office of Senator. You can call Tagaris a lier or that he speaks rubbish if the Basileos denies that he has consented the edict Tagaris proposed. But your current words say nothing else then disrespect towards office of Roman senator, while calling his words rubbish without any evidence of lies.

The evidence is self-evident, my good man. The Emperor is not speaking, and someone else is claiming he said something that is not on record.

Until the Emperor speaks for himself it's just plain evident to all sane persons that he hasn't said it yet.

And for those of you who continue to question my allegiance and call me a fool, I can rightly accuse you of disrespecting a war veteran and the office of a Senator as well, BUT I WILL NOT, because it's a RED HERRING ARGUMENT and I will not be distracted by bit players and issues which are not being debated.

Now answer me. WHY IS THIS LEGISLATION NECESSARY???

Senator Monomachos, are you insinuating that the House of the Tagamata is intentionally trying to prevent your House from acquiring Durazzo? If so, that is ridiculous. There are four members of Tagamata, and only two of us have spoken up on this issue. Furthermore, I initially attacked Senator Tagaris believing that his legislation was made for personal reasons! You have lost all sense of reasoning if you think that Tagamata is somehow conspiring against your House. Speaking of which, which House exactly are you loyal to? Since I am apparently part of some conspiracy against your House, it would be useful for me to know who I should be attacking.

Yes, when only half of your house supports legislation, it would seem to be obvious that the official position of that house is against the legislation.



My allegiances are not the point of discussion. Should you want an answer to that question, talk with me privately. I WILL NOT have this argument changed for your benefit. Stick to the issues.

[Andres]

Ah, Strator Efstratios Monomachos.

The question is not whether this legislation is necessary or not. No, my esteemed colleague, the important question is : "Why are you opposed against an Edict that allows the Basileus to take a decision?"

It has been made clear that your loyalty is questionable. Didn't you already in fact break an oath of fealthy? Which House do you belong to now? The House of the Asteri or The House of the Tepaki? How long will it take before you break your most recent oath and will swear yet another one? An illegal one, might I add. Just read the Charter...

Your recent history and behaviour more then justifies the questioning of your loyalty towards the Basileus.

[Byblos]

A bumbling Tarasios Sarantinos rushes into the Senate house with a bright red face and gasping for air. "Do excuse me, my mother says I should run along to the Senate as is my duty or I will be grounded for a week." Even redder in the face he takes a seat next to Monomachos, much to the amusement of half the Senate.

[TinCow]

Begging your pardon, Senator Monomachos, but your allegiances are exactly the point of the discussion here. The current wording of Edict 1.9 is entirely in favor of the Basileus. It gives him freedom of choice and control over what happens with Durazzo. Indeed, the way Edict 1.9 is worded, you yourself could be chosen to lead the attack and the Basileus could even give the province to you as a reward! Yet instead of promoting yourself as a better alternative for the job than Senator Tagaris, you attack the legislation itself. By proxy, you are attacking the Basileus. Opposing this legislation means you do not trust his judgment on this issue. If you do not trust the Basileus to do what is right for the Empire, who do you trust?

As for my loyalities, I am loyal to the House of the Tagamata because that House exists specifically to support the Basileus and his efforts to return the Empire to its former glory. I initially opposed Edict 1.9 because I believed it was a method of circumventing the Basileus. Now that it has been rephrased to give him complete freedom of choice, I support it whole-heartedly, because the legislation itself favors the Basileus. Saying that Tagamata pursues this Edict out of greed is also blatantly false, as we gain nothing from it. None of our members has asked for command of the attack on Durazzo and the province will be given to the Basileus, not to us. The only way we could benefit from this legislation would be if the Basileus chose to give Durazzo to us after it was taken. Yet again this brings us around to whether you are questioning the wisdom and integrity of the Basileus himself.

[Askthepizzaguy]

With that Efstratios Monomachos breaks into uproarious laughter!

BAH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

The question is not whether this legislation is necessary or not. No, my esteemed colleague, the important question is : "Why are you opposed against an Edict that allows the Basileus to take a decision?"

You are purposefully ignoring the question and are trying to again push your false argument that being against this legislation means being opposed to the Emperor. As such, I will not do you the same disservice. I will actually do you the honour of RESPONDING to your question. Wish you would do the same.

I am opposed to this edict because it is proposed without just cause. The Emperor has not asked for Durazzo. The Emperor has not stated that he wishes to possess Durazzo. The Emperor has not indicated to my satisfaction that he is opposed to myself or my allies or my house being the liberator of the province. The sole purpose of this legislation is to take without just cause a claimed province from those who are in position to take it and have long declared their intentions to.

Never, not once, have the supporters of this edict declared why it is necessary to steal the claim of this province for the excuse of handing it to the Emperor so he can decide whom to give it to.

It seems self-evident that those who claim and capture the province should have a right to it, but your faction seeks to take it away under the guise of "allowing the Emperor to decide who should have it".

It's a smokescreen for your true intentions, which are clear to anyone who reads the edict and our claims to the province prior to the edict that you dont want me our my allies to claim the province.

Is this really such a hard concept?

It has been made clear that your loyalty is questionable. Didn't you already in fact break an oath of fealthy? Which House do you belong to now? The House of the Asteri or the House of the Tepaki? How long will it take before you break your most recent oath and will swear yet another one? An illegal one, might I add. Just read the Charter...

I will not respond to those who are blatantly and nakedly and desperately trying to change the subject.

IT DOESNT MATTER whom I am aligned with. It has no relevance to the discussion. If you actually cared, you would ask me in private. I will not let you hijack the debate.

Your recent history and behaviour more then justifies the questioning of your loyalty towards the Basileus.

More ad hominem sophistry. Do you not know how to debate with reason, sir? Or are you clinging to denigrating and demonizing and mudslinging your opponent? CAN YOUR ARGUMENT NOT STAND ON ITS OWN? Is it so feeble that you cannot answer the simple question "why" is your edict necessary?

Why is it necessary?

WHY is it necessary??

WHY IS IT NECESSARY????

ANSWER ME!!!

Begging your pardon, Senator Monomachos, but your allegiances are exactly the point of the discussion here. The current wording of Edict 1.9 is entirely in favor of the Basileus. It gives him freedom of choice and control over what happens with Durazzo. Indeed, the way Edict 1.9 is worded, you yourself could be chosen to lead the attack and the Basileus could even give the province to you as a reward! Yet instead of promoting yourself as a better alternative for the job than Senator Tagaris, you attack the legislation itself. By proxy, you are attacking the Basileus. Opposing this legislation means you do not trust his judgment on this issue. If you do not trust the Basileus to do what is right for the Empire, who do you trust?

Thats an entirely false and disingenuous argument, and I will not insult you by claiming that you don't already know this. Surely a man of your intellect knows that what you've just proposed as a rational debate is a straw man argument. Instead of answering why this legislation is even necessary, you claim that I must argue erroneously why I don't distrust the Emperor.

I will not have you frame the debate for me. You can continue to put words in my mouth and claim that I must be disloyal to the emperor because your house and your allies don't want me in possession of Durazzo. But you're not fooling anyone with this nonsense, least of all me.

And you know bloody well this argument is not about my allegiances. And since I've already staked a claim to the province, it seems ludicrous that I should nod like an idiot and agree that "well, maybe after all this debating and political posturing, the edict won't matter anyway because I'll get to claim it after all".

Utter hogwash. The only purpose an edict like this serves is to deny those who have already claimed the province the right to take it.

My question, why, still stands.

As for my loyalities, I am loyal to the House of the Tagamata because that House exists specifically to support the Basileus and his efforts to return the Empire to its former glory. I initially opposed Edict 1.9 because I believed it was a method of circumventing the Basileus. Now that it has been rephrased to give him complete freedom of choice, I support it whole-heartedly, because the legislation itself favors the Basileus. Saying that Tagamata pursues this Edict out of greed is also blatantly false, as we gain nothing from it. None of our members has asked for command of the attack on Durazzo and the province will be given to the Basileus, not to us. The only way we could benefit from this legislation would be if the Basileus chose to give Durazzo to us after it was taken. Yet again this brings us around to whether you are questioning the wisdom and integrity of the Basileus himself.

I don't give a flying magic carpet what your loyalties are, and I resent that this debate is now focused on mine. I swore allegiance to the Emperor publicly, and that should be good enough for you. YOU are not my leige.

I tire of the straw man argument that I am questioning the Basileus instead of the legislation itself or why it is necessary. Will you finally stop that nonsense and argue like a man?

[Privateerkev]

I do not see why the question of "who do you serve" has caused such uproar from Efstratios.

It seems he is still officially sworn to Anastasios. But conversations that have been overheard in the inn where House Tapeki is headquartered are interesting. (OOC: Peverpink made clear that the inn is open to all so I see no problem using posts in there as IC knowledge)

My guess is that Efstratios is staying loyal to Asteri just long enough to get Durazzo. Then he will turn and hand over the province to House Tapeki so that House finally has some land.

[Andres]

Strator Monomachos, please tell me, which one of the Houses you belong to claimed Durazzo? Or was it House Monomachos?

I regret the public display of your anger and rage in this sacred place.

A civilised man would simply propose another Edict, opposed to the Edict 1.9 (b) we our discussing right now and would try to gain support for that Edict.

That's how this legislative body works, my dear colleague.

Or are you also opposed to the Senate, its' purpose and the way it works?

[Kagemusha]

Ioannis whispers something to his servants ear and the servant discreetly walks to young Tarasios Sarantinos and points him towards the Komnendoukai seats, away from the red faced Monomachos.

[TinCow]

It is necessary because, with one exception, Durazzo is the only nearby province which can be taken by a Senator without the prior approval of the Basileus. Every other province has walls of some kind, which means that infantry will be required to reduce them. Infantry have to be supplied by the Baslieus, thus the Basileus will control who obtains these provinces. The only exception to this is the Caesar, who controls his own Royal Army. However, as he is a loyal son of the Basileus, I suspect he is more than willing to abide by his father's wishes.

The legislation is necessary specifically because it prevents people like you from denying the Basileus the right to choose which Senators or Houses, if any, gain control over the various nearby provinces.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC-

I've already stated that if you wish to know my allegiances, private message me and we will discuss it. I'm not responding to it because it's not the topic.

Case closed.

It is necessary because, with one exception, Durazzo is the only nearby province which can be taken by a Senator without the prior approval of the Basileus. Every other province has walls of some kind, which means that infantry will be required to reduce them. Infantry have to be supplied by the Baslieus, thus the Basileus will control who obtains these provinces. The only exception to this is the Caesar, who controls his own Royal Army. However, as he is a loyal son of the Basileus, I suspect his is more than willing to abide by his father's wishes.

The legislation is necessary specifically because it prevents people like you from denying the Basileus the right to choose which Senators or Houses, if any, gain control over the various nearby provinces.

At long last, my question is finally answered.

Now I must ask, why does it bother you so much that your fellow Senator and loyal servant of the Emperor has claimed a province and intends to take it? You speak as if I were the enemy.

If the Emperor would stand before us and explain that he doesn't want me to have Durazzo, then that will end this debate because I serve him, not you.

And I've highlighted the most telling point. The wording after that should be replaced with "from claiming provinces rightfully because my house is engaging in petty rivalry". How precisely could I deny the Basileos ANYTHING?

If I opposed the Emperor he could have me dragged into the center of town and had my throat cut for treason. Your argument that I am somehow tying the hands of our Basileus is absurd. I am now beginning to question the ingenuous nature of what you're trying to say. It makes absolutely no sense.

[_Tristan_]

Yes that was exactly the reason behind my proposal.

I have made clear my intentions of how I will deal with that settlement once captured, turning it over to the Basileos' domain.

That much cannot be said of other contenders whose motives are much foggier...

[Byblos]

Poor Tara is clearly torn between disobeying his mother and moving away from One-Brow Matchos and sitting with his house. Royal duty wins the day and Tara walks away from Machos with a wide-eyed glance.

[The Lemongate]

Senators, before this debate gets any coarser, let us see if we can reach an accord. I have finally been able to talk to Tagaris in private. Please be patient and let us attempt to resolve this as these debates are getting out of hand.