The Magnaura

**Ituralde** · 07-17-2008, 06:45

While I agree that the atrocities of the bloody Caliph can not go unpunished, everybody must realize that this will be a dangerour mission towards lands far removed from the Empire. Striking at the heart of our enemy will be a devastating blow but they will bloody well hold on to their cities as well as they can! This is not for the soft-hearted and everyone who bloody decides to go should better be aware now that it will be highly risky and they might end up deep in enemy territory with little supplies!

But we also have another war to wage on the Anatolikon, one where Christian lives are also at stake. I refuse to give the Crusade a disproportionate amount of support, before we have secured our Eastern frontier. Right now as we speak there are heathens defiling the streets of the cities in our Empire. Our Priests do their best to convert the populace but this is a slow process! I think everybody has seen in 1095 what can happen if the religious integrity of our Empire is questioned. Before we don't have a strong community of faithful citizens on the Anatolikon I see no need to spread our conversion efforts even further!

Save the Christians in Cairo we will bloody well do, but we will not empty our coffers to send more than a couple of Priests to accompany these troops! If anyone is scared by this prospect he might just decide to stay home after all!

**Ignoramus** · 07-17-2008, 07:10

Ioannis gets slowly to his feet and stares at Senator Ksanthopoulos.

You will apologise for that insult, senator, and learn some respect for the Basileus and Caesar.

Ioannis resumes his seat.

**OverKnight** · 07-17-2008, 07:40

Aleksios glowers at Makedonios and surprisingly at Ioannis as well.

Both of you are Senators of the Roman Empire, one that has reigned on this Earth for over a thousand years. Act with some decorum before I censure you both.

Aleksios shakes his head.

Let me be perfectly clear, there will be a Crusade. (OOC: It is an event, God (TC) has willed it.) However, I will not allow it to detract from our other endeavors or bankrupt the Empire. I strongly suggest that those with commands or lands stay behind. I will also remind those who do go, that they have a duty to the Empire as well as God. Do not forsake one for the other.

**Privateerkev** · 07-17-2008, 07:40

Makedonios stays silent.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**ULC** · 07-17-2008, 07:44

Iakovos stands sharply up.

I should think Caesar, that one of your intelligence would be able to discern between an insult and constructive criticism, and that when you say "...and the right of every senator to voice his own opinion" you also allow the other senators to voice that opinion. If you do not, then you are no better then the Patriarchal Representative you happen to have condemned, who I think had every right to in fact voice his opinion.

I also agree with The Emperor though, and I think we should actually sit down and discuss the logistics of the crusade, and decide what the empire can afford for this most Holy of missions.

Iakovos sits back down and immediately begins writing furiously.

**Ignoramus** · 07-17-2008, 07:54

Ioannis looks suprised at his father's words, but rises to speak.

My father is right, I have lost my cool, and deserve his rebuke.

Walking over to Senator Ksanthopoulos, Ioannis extends his hand.

"I apologise for reaction, it was not befitting a Roman senator."

**Privateerkev** · 07-17-2008, 07:57

Makedonios immediately stands up as the Caesar approaches. He extends his hand and takes the Caesar's hand.

I apologize if my words got... heated. This Crusade is a passionate subject for me. I appreciate your apology and I accept. I will try to do my part to make sure the proceedings are more... civil from now on.

With a head-bow to the Emperor, Makedonios resumes his seat after the Caesar walks away.

**flyd** · 07-17-2008, 08:15

Markianos, having held little interest in the discussion, speaks quietly to the Asteri section.

Ah, I can smell the love.

He takes a deep breath through his nose.

Mmmm, smells like wild roses. Pink ones.

**Andres** · 07-17-2008, 08:29

Savvas stands up and faces the Grandmaster

You ask me about my plans for the coming 15 years?

I fully support the Crusade. Not because I am a religeous fanatic, you all know me better than that, but because I detest religeous fanatics. Fanatics like the Caliph who decides to kill people because they are Christians.

So, let their be no doubt, I support the Crusade.

But, I also realise that the Catholics who are marching on Jerusalem are a threat for our Empire and thus our western and northern lands need some more troops, just enough to convince the catholics not to take a detour to Constantinople.

I am also of the opinion that the War against the Seljuks needs to continue. The damage inflicted upon us by the Turks in the past must be avenged and the shame needs to be wiped out with Turkish blood.

Allthough exterminating cities goes too far for my taste, after all, we are Romans and thus the only civilised nation in the world, I am also realistic.

It is my opinion that all Seljuk cities should be sacked and the most important reason is : money.

We need a strong border with the Catholics, we need priests and other... 'agents' to escort the crusaders and the armies fighting the Seljuks will need the support of our Empire as well.

The Empire needs money!

Grandmaster, I know that I have seconded your edict 3.2, but I urge you to rephrase it as follows:

No settlement can be exterminated. Whenever a settlement is taken, the conqueror is obliged to sack it. Crusade targets must be occupied.

**ULC** · 07-17-2008, 08:54

Iakovos stand ups again

With all due respect Senator Savvas, your proposal is asking far to much. If you wish to discuss realism, then take into consideration that some would absolutely refuse to follow such an edict based upon their own principals. A ban on extermination is wonderful, but we should also limit the sacking of cities. At the very least, we should limit such activity to Turkish territory only, and not require the Crusaders to sack Cairo or Alexandria as well.

**Ignoramus** · 07-17-2008, 08:57

Ioannis Komnenos, having heard Savvas' speech, rises to speak.

Senators, some of you may think my words that the Crusade was a "novel venture" were harsh. It is because it is a distraction from the most important issue at the moment, the reconquest of Anatolia.

Some of you may feel confident of besting the Turk, after considering the great strides Senator Ampelas has taken in the past 15 years. But it folly to underestimate our Turkish foes. Have you forgotten Manzikert and its consequences?

The Fatimid Caliph may be seeking to provoke us by butchering Christians, but we should not use resources intended for the Anatolian campaign for assisting this venture. Here we can learn something from our Frankish neighbours. The Bishop of Rome called a Crusade upon Jerusalem, and those who chose to take up the cross did so, bringing with them their own retainers and pilgrims wishing to embark for the Levant. Yet we do not see droves of Franks or Germans streaming towards Jerusalem.

This is what intend to do regarding the Egyptian Crusade. Those who feel it is their duty to avenge the wrongs done to Christians will take their soldiers and any volunteers they can raise, but there shall be no compensation to those houses who commit soldiers to the Crusade. This Crusade was called by His Eminence, not by my father. As such, it a religious campaign, and not a state one. As such, the empire will not commit soldiers to this venture.

You must realise that if the Crusade should fail, non-direct involvement still allows for the negotiation of a truce with Fatimids, should the worst happen. We must not commit all our eggs in one basket.

Finally, we have no idea of the strength of the Fatimid Caliphate. There have been no spies sent to find out the strengths of our enemy.

Ioannis resumes his seat.

**_Tristan_** · 07-17-2008, 09:02

Listening to the proceedings so far, Methodios perks up as he hears the words of Savvas.

I do not think Edict 3.2 should be rephrased along your proposal. Sacking always involves some part of killing as owners try to defend their goods. The purpose of this Edict is to prevent such pointless killings. Its current wording already allows for the sacking of Muslim cities. Your wording would allow for the killing of Orthodox citizens, something which I will not support.

As to the matter of the Crusade, I find it funny how many of you are today ready to open a second front so far from our lands when some years ago when I warned of the treachery of our Catholic neighbours and the need to wage a preventive war against them (a war we could have forced them to declare), a war fought on our doorstep, people used to laugh at me. See where your laughs got us ? Bucharest and Belgrade threatened, Zagreb and Sinop fallen... Now a Catholic crusade marches through our lands and even threatened us of war but all the eyes are turned southwards and overseas to act in the protection of Christians from abroad while we may not even be able to protect our own brothers...

Still, I agree that the Caliph should be punished for what he did. And I am prepared to ride to Egypt to punish him at swordpoint myself if need be.

At this point, I have not yet reached my decision on whether I will join or not. Though I am now landless, I still feel I and others may be needed to defend our homeland from Catholic invasion.

If enough of our generals remain in Greece, I will gladly join knowing that our heartland will be aptly defended. Until then, I will stay.