The Magnaura

[ULC]

Nikolaos reenters the Magnaura in a heavy and warm overcoat and cloak, protecting from what seems to be an unseasonal chill in the Capital. Yet still he strides in with confidence and a smile, turning to one of the senators and waves cheerfully, and he almost accidentally stumbles into the Caesar. Nikolaos huge frame and size, easily dwarfing anyone in the Magnaura by several inches and pounds, blocks most of the exit and Nikolaos awkwardly moves to let the Caesar pass. Nikolaos finally takes his seat and begins writing while taking a bite from a cookie.

[Ignoramus]

Returning into the diet, Ioannis Komnenos indicates his desire to speak.

"I must apologise to Antypatos Makedonios Ksanthopoulos for the grievous insult I dealt him. He is well within his rights to seek satisfaction, though it was of my making. My action was foolish and unbecoming of my rank and position.

Though I fear I cannot make it up to him, I offer to provide the Order with 5 catapults from Nicaea in order to strenthen the eastern frontier. I had neglected the the Syrian frontier during my tenure as Megas Logothetes, and must do what I can to make ammends.

I also apologise to this august body for my proposed violence in order to restructure the empire. You have a natural right to despise me, though I trust I may regain your respect.

To my father, forgive me. I deserve banishment for my words to you - such disrespect borders upon treason. You may do with me as you will.

I believe in order to display my sincerity, I must step down from the leadership of the Komnenodoukai. Rest assured that Anypatos Chrysovergos is a true soldier of the empire, and will guard our lands well.

I believe inappropriate to listen in on my judgement, and will retire to my quarters. My scribes will relate all the relevant information to me.

Ioannis Komenenos bows and walks slowly out of the Magnaura.

[Ramses II CP]

Vissarionas watches the departing figure of the Caesar with considerably more interest than his face bore when the previous, brief, announcement of civil war was made. Vissa shakes his head ruefully and then glances up at Aleksios before speaking.

'That may well be the best defense he could possibly have made. In any event, I must again congratulate the Emperor for his cleverness. Our Empire has been blessed with brilliant leadership these past decades; perhaps when God tested the Roman soul at Mazikert it was in his mind to bring forth men such as our mighty Basileus in response.'

'Unless any other man would speak on behalf of the Caesar I suggest to the Protoasecretes that we proceed with the vote, all parties having now been heard to the extent necessary. I have anxious business awaiting me in the desert.'

[Privateerkev]

I notice that through all of his fluffy rhetoric, the Caesar has not rescinded his declaration of war.

Ok, if it is war he wants, it is war he will get.

It seems CA E2.1 is now more important than ever. I truly believe that if the Caesar gets an automatic term, he will use it to plunge us into conflict that will set back the Empire for decades.

Therefore, he must not get that term. Let him be elected if he can find the support.

It seems the Caesar has put rules 5.1 and rules 5.3 into full effect. If his House wishes to avoid war, they will need to break from him the moment the session ends. Any who don't, will feel the effects of this war. Antypatos Pavlos should consider voting for CA E2.1.

In fact, since the Caesar will use his automatic term to prosecute a war, I will see any who vote against CA E2.1 as supporting his war against the Order.

Know that the Order does not want war. We will make no offensive moves. And will be willing to sign a "Peace Treaty" along the lines of Rule 5.3.

A Peace Treaty will be contingent upon the Caesar's, and his House's, full throated support of CA E2.1.

Otherwise, when my term starts, there will be war...

And the Caesar, and those who stick by him, won't like it...

[Privateerkev]

Alright, now that I have taken some time to process this, I will lay out my case.

According to these words:

For too long have I had to bear the insults of that fiend, Makedonios. I hereby declare war upon him. I care not what my father thinks, as he has constantly refused to defend my honour. This is a private quarrel, and I ask that the rest of the empire leave us to it. If they do not, then I will not back down.

The Caesar invoked Rule 5.1 which states:

A Senator must make a Declaration of War towards a specific Senator in a public thread before they can attack any of that Senator’s armies or settlements. A Declaration of War applies to all Senators of lower rank in the vassal chains of both the Senator who makes the Declaration and the Senator who is the target of the Declaration, including vassals who swear an Oath of Fealty after the Declaration of War has been made. A Declaration of War does not apply to any Senators in the vassal chain who are above the declarer or the target. Neither the Senator who made the Declaration of War, nor anyone below him in his vassal chain, can attack the target of that Declaration, or anyone below the target in his vassal chain, until the target(s) have been provided with one full turn's worth of movement. This rule does not limit movement in any way, nor does it prevent the target(s) of the Declaration of War from attacking the declarer(s).

As a party in this "war," I hereby move that we invoke Rule 5.3 which states:

A Civil War will end when all Senators on one side are dead or all living Senators on both sides publicly agree to a Peace Treaty. So long as it is limited to changes to the provinces, settlements, armies, Oaths of Loyalty, and retinue of the Senators signing the Peace Treaty, it will be considered binding law. All terms of a Peace Treaty that go beyond these limits, particularly those that increase a Senator’s influence or powers beyond those allowed by the rules, will only be binding if adopted by a two-thirds majority of the Senate at the next normal session. Individual Senators may unilaterally remove themselves from a Civil War within one turn of the Declaration of War that brought them into it by breaking all Oaths of Loyalty that tie them to any Senator involved in the War and by publicly declaring Neutrality. Neutrality cannot be claimed by a declarer, a target, or any Senator who has been involved in a PvP Battle during that specific Civil War.

I now present a Peace Treaty to be signed by both sides:

As of the end of the Emergency session, war between the Order and the Caesar shall end. This Treaty is null and void if any member of the Caesar's feudal chain votes no on CA E2.1.

Signed:

Makedonios Ksanthopoulos

If the Caesar does not agree to this, I strongly urge that his whole House invoke the part of Rule 5.3 that gives them a way to declare neutrality.

It is time to stop this madness before it is too late.

I now wait for everyone's signature.

OOC: It's up to TC on how to handle the logistics of this. Does he want us to all state in here? Will he put up a poll? How do we handle inactive members of the chain?

[Kagemusha]

"Grandmaster.Still you cant think anything else then rules and laws. A man of God should not be so blind to feelings of men and let edicts and laws blind from the hearts of others. Caesar has stepped down and placed himself in front of this senate to be punished about things he has confessed and still all you can think of is the law. Why would you not even bother first wait for the new leader of Komnenodoukai, Pavlos Chrysovergos to speak, before you start spilling poison again to the ears of the senators. Caesar Ioannis clearly stated that the plan was his and he now remorses about his ambitions and actions, while you Makedonias Ksanthapoulos can only think of letters of the law codexes of the Empire. I pity you."

[Ramses II CP]

I, of course, would put my name to any treaty which my Lord put forward to ensure peace within the Empire!

[Privateerkev]

Sorry Kantakouzinos,

The law is quite clear. The Caesar declared war. To ensure this does not get out of hand, he can not be trusted with an automatic term.

I want the war to end immediately but I also want a guarantee that the Caesar will not get an automatic term.

I hope people will forgive me if I do not trust the Caesar...

So Kantakouzinos, what is your stand on this treaty? Will you sign?

[Kagemusha]

"I know the heart of mine and i also know what Pavlos Chrysovergos thinks and i will let my master and the commander of the Komnenodoukai speak for our house. We are men bound together to preserve the Empire and not to destroy it, so restrain yourself and dont demand individual statements from members of our house, but let our new leader talk with one voice that represents all of the Komnenodoukai."

[Privateerkev]

Well, by law, a Peace Treaty has to be signed by every individual member of the conflict.

So, I am well within my rights when I ask for your opinion. Since, one person's opposition could derail the entire thing.

[AussieGiant]

May I ask what the impact of a declaration of war by the Caesar is, now that he has stepped down as leader of the Komnenodoukai?

In effect he is now an individual Senator. Unless Anypatos Chrysovergos, as leader of the house declares war then the issue is possibly a moot one no?

Would it have been too much to ask the Grand Master to respond in the spirit of the Caesar's proclamation?

It seems no one here is able to change their behaviour for even just a second in order to reduce tensions.

All that has to be done is to pick up the Olive Branch when it is offered.

Is that even possible at this point Lord Makedonios?

[TinCow]

The Protoasecretes coughs and rises.

I believe I can answer these questions. At the time that the Caesar declared war on Senator Ksanthopoulos, he was still the head of his House. As such, everyone in House Komnenodoukai is now at war with all members of the Order. This specifically includes Pavlos Chrysovergos, Lisas Attaleiatis, Ioannis Kantakouzinos, Michail Arianitis, and Hypatios Machonios for the Komnenodoukai and Armatos ek Naksou, Nathanail ek Korinthou, Vartholomaios Ksiros, Vissarionas ek Lesvou, and Stavros ek Amarinthou for the Order.

As Ioannis Komnenos was the declarer and Makedonios Ksanthopoulos was the target of the declaration, neither of these men may end their involvement in the war except by agreeing to a Peace Treaty. All other members in both Houses have one year (turn) to remove themselves from the war by declaring neutrality. For the Komnenodoukai this is a bit easier, as Ioannis Komnenos has already left the House. Therefore, if all remaining Komnenodoukai declare neutrality together and before the end of the year, that entire House will no longer be involved in the Civil War. If some of the Komnenodoukai do not declare neutrality within the year, then all members desiring neutrality will have to break further oaths to those people who remain in the Civil War, likely forcing the dismantling of the entire house. The same is true for the lower ranking members of the Order, who can only remove themselves from the war by declaring neutrality and breaking their oaths to any member who remains in the war.

[AussieGiant]

Nodding to the decrepit old man in acknowledgment Apionnas stands.

It seems very clear what the next steps are. Those that wish to avoid civil war have a clear task to conduct.

There can be no doubt who is pro conflict and who has the best interest of the Empire at heart.

[Kagemusha]

Since the threat of war glooms over us all. The Megas cant be a person who could be a party in a possible war. So i here for present Charter Amendment. 2.2 In order to preserve peace, Grandmaster Makedonias will be impeached from office of Megas Logothes and new election will be held.

I ask for any Senator who wishes to preserve peace in the Empire to second this Amendment. We cant have a Megas, who might be engaging in war against his fellow senators in office. In this kind of situation, not anyone from parties under a threat of war should be in office.

[Kagemusha]

Kantakouzinos stares around the hall and says with a clear and loud voice.

"Fellow Senators.Dont you understand the seriousness of the situation?Not any man from either Komnenodoukai or Order should be the Megas Logothes in this situation. The situation may escalate and in that case do you want to have a senator who is at war with other senators of the Empire controlling the government? I want peace, but keeping Grandmaster in office is not good thing in dire situation like this one. We need a Megas who is neutral in this conflict and who could work best to prevent it from escalating."

[AussieGiant]

Lord Kantakouzinos,

You can only impeach the Megas. This requires a 2/3 majority vote and is therefore not an edict.

And yes, I agree it would not be prudent to have a Megas that is involved in a Civil war.

[Kagemusha]

"Thank you Senator Apionnas.Then i will rename my proposal to Charter Amendment 2.2.I am happy that someone understands my point of view."

[Kagemusha]

"As far as i know charter amendment requires 2/3rds to pass and thus can be used for impeachment. For the senators present. You are making a great disservice to the empire for not seconding this proposal to vote. If it would be voted upon, then other senators would have time to consider it further, but giving keys of government to a man who might be party in a civil war shows true blindness towards the good of the empire. The decision is yours. If this wont even be seconded i must say that the senate is doing a terrible mistake when you have a megas like the grandmaster in office, who can do any horrible deed with an excuse a letter of law can present to him."

[Warmaster Horus]

Senator Kantakouzinos,

The Megas has tried to resolve this situation. The Caesar hasn't spoken or sent word since the Megas has tried to resolve this.
Technically, the Order is at war with the Komnenodoukai. But it is not really apparent. A peace deal has been brought up, so the legal formalities can be taken care of.
I repeat, we are effectively not at war. What you are doing is blowing this out of proportions to boot the Megas out.

[Ramses II CP]

Why don't we try to resolve the matter of the war instead of trying to balance out the sides? Am I missing something, or is the peace deal on the table not quite reasonable?

And if not, why not put a counter-offer on the table rather than making an aggressive move which, to my eyes, makes it look a lot more like you're trying to secure advantages for your House in the war than trying to avert it?

I assure this body that my name, for one, will go on any reasonable deal that secures peace within the Empire.

[Cecil XIX]

All this talk about the Megas's interests is all well and good, but both Sentators Kantakouzino and Vringas have neglected one simple matter:

The Grandmaster has offered peace terms. And most generous terms at that, for he is not demanding anything that he was not already seeking. I can appreciate why the two Senators would want an impartial Megas Logothetes to work for peace. But the Grandmaster is already doing so, and indeed he 'offered the olive branch' before such criticism was levied.

I for one am quite willing to put my name to the Grandmaster's proposed treaty.

[flyd]

Of course, the most noble Grandmaster Ksanthopoulos has taken the opportunity to push his agenda while trying to "end the madness." CA E2.1 should go into effect if and only if 2/3rds of the Senate truly supports it. I plan on supporting it with my vote, but I strongly oppose the attempt by Ksanthopoulos to undermine our legislative process with threats of violence. The Caesar has already renounced his war declaration: no harm was done, and a simple formality of a treaty would have sufficed. Instead, Ksanthopoulos has taken the opportunity to back his agenda with threat of civil war, in a way that makes it appear not to be his fault to the casual observer. On top of a pile of legal mumbo-jumbo lies an utterly insincere desire for peace, and hidden below it lies a desire to push a political agenda at all cost. I, for one, condemn it.

[OverKnight]

Aleksios speaks after nodding to his youngest son.

It is obvious that the Komnendoukai do not wish a war. It is also obvious that most of the men in the Order of St. John do not wish a war.

My son has stepped down as leader of his House. He will be barred from assuming the post of Megas Logothetes automatically. He has apologized to the Megas Logothetes for his ill thought words. To seek further concessions would be. . .unwise.

I ask Megas Logothetes Ksanthopoulos to offer a "White Peace" and I ask my son to accept it as a favor to me and for the benefit of the Empire. There has been no actual war, only harsh words. I would be most displeased if the Megas used this unfortunate incident to prove a rhetorical point or kick someone while they are down.

The ramifications are too far reaching to continue with this madness, we must have peace.

[Ramses II CP]

Vissarionas nods after the Emperor's speech.

I would sign such a deal happily.

[TinCow]

The time for proposing legislation has passed. Voting may now commence and remain open for 48 hours, until 23:00 GMT on Wednesday, September 3rd.

[Privateerkev]

We all know the Caesar would pursue war if he gets an automatic term. Therefore, him having an automatic term puts us at risk. No real peace can be achieved if he gets one. Since we are the aggrieved party, I believe it is well within our rights to ask that a peace deal be contingent upon the Caesar's support, or at least apathy, of CA E2.1.

If he is allowed an automatic term, he will simply declare war again once the situation is advantageous to him. Our only hope of avoiding war in the future is to force him to seek elections to be Megas. Let him discuss civil war with us openly and make his case to the other senators.

It was the Caesar that desires war. If he truly desires peace, let him prove it...

[Ituralde]

Pavlos Chrysovergos has entered the Senate some time ago and does not look very please. The scar only amplifying the downcast of his mouth.

Bloody magnificent! I thank the Basileus for his wise words on the matter, I hope they solve the situation. It is agreed that the Senate will decide on the fate of Caesar Ioannis, my former Lord. Threatening with Civil War to some members of this chamber if they don't cast their votes in a certain way is disturbing. I do not like to be threatened!

I will stand aside and let the Caesare and Megas Ksanthopoulos settle the matter. If I'm needed for some legal mumbo jumbo as the Caesars brother put it, you'll know where to find me.

[Privateerkev]

Don't whine to me about being threatened Pavlos.

The Caesar has threatened me more times than I can count. Everyone that knows him knows he will declare war the very moment he feels he can get away with it.

Many of you put the Caesar in the powerful political position he is in now. Few of you are blameless. If people really desire peace, then they need to stand against the man now before he gets another guaranteed term.

The Senate should mark my words. The Caesar will declare war again if he feels he can get away with it. Our only hope is to stand against him now and let him know his warmongering will not stand.

If CA E2.1 fails, there can be no peace. Because the Caesar will use that term to kill us. Because of the Caesar, the Order needs to worry about it's very survival. This isn't about pushing a political agenda. For us, it really is "life or death."

[Ituralde]

I don't whine Makedonios, I just make you aware that threatening me has consequences!

You on the other hand seem to be utterly terrified by the Caesar Ioannis. What political power do you speak of? He just stepped down as head of the Komnenodoukai. And why do you think he will ever get away with it? Just now his two most loyal followers refused to follow him into Civil War. You know very well my stance on the matter! So don't paint ghosts on the walls where there are none!

I do not condemn the Charter Amendment, but your way of trying to enforce it!

[Motep]

wrong thread...