U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

[ICantSpellDawg]

Wishful thinking, Leemster?

Palin did great. CNN seems to think she won.

Oh and Biden apparently lied quite a bit... nothing new really...

CNN and Fox believe that she won. I am impressed.

[Koga No Goshi]

Yea you are right - Don is a crazy ideologue who votes across the board with Bush, Cheney and the rest of the conservative masterminds.

Thank you, opinionated Berkley grad that is objective in all things, I can finally see now that you are the rational one and that Don is a mindless minion of the New American Century.

Cover it up all you'd like, Don (if that is your real name) We'll find evidence that you blew up the twin towers for the U.S. government and mossad. You days in the slimey conservative shadows are numbered.

Continue basing your views on ideology, ignoring evidence, continue voting the same way, and continue believing that the reasons things don't change is just because "this time, it was managed badly. But the basic ideology is still correct." That mentality underlines most of the conservatives around the boards here. But don't demand people go around getting evidence if you're just going to start squealing about left wing bias here, left wing bias there, left wing bias everywhere and then discredit all available information. It's dishonest and it's wasting other poster's time. If you believe what you believe because you believe it and no facts or figures are going to budge that view be up front and honest and say so as a courtesy to people.

[PanzerJaeger]

Continue basing your views on ideology, ignoring evidence, continue voting the same way, and continue believing that the reasons things don't change is just because "this time, it was managed badly. But the basic ideology is still correct." That mentality underlines most of the conservatives around the boards here.

Do you realize how hypocritical you sound? Every time you say "conservative", it could be replaced with "liberal" without much mention.

[seireikhaan]

Wishful thinking, Leemster?

Palin did great. CNN seems to think she won.

Oh and Biden apparently lied quite a bit... nothing new really...

Now who's lying? Panzer, I was watching CNN- there was ONE person out of their staff of 8 who stated that Palin scored better than Biden on the debate.

[Don Corleone]

Yea you are right - Don is a crazy ideologue who votes across the board with Bush, Cheney and the rest of the conservative masterminds.

Thank you, opinionated Berkley grad that is objective in all things, I can finally see now that you are the rational one and that Don is a mindless minion of the New American Century.

Cover it up all you'd like, Don (if that is your real name) We'll find evidence that you blew up the twin towers for the U.S. government and mossad. You days in the slimey conservative shadows are numbered.

SILENCE THRALL!!! One more word about my allegiances to the Illuminati Octosquid overlords, and I'll send Dick Cheney to come take you in your sleep!.

[PanzerJaeger]

Now who's lying? Panzer, I was watching CNN- there was ONE person out of their staff of 8 who stated that Palin scored better than Biden on the debate.

You are. They led off discussing her "winning" the debate and the panel broadly agreed.

[seireikhaan]

You are. They led off discussing her "winning" the debate and the panel broadly agreed.

This is going to be a "nu uh" moment, I see. I saw nothing where they said she "won" the "debate". They generally agreed that she accomplished what she needed to do, which was reassure conservatives. That's not the same as "winning" the "debate".

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I think the pundits will blather on about how "a loss is a win" for palin given her interviews, yada yada. But Biden was the clear winner in the debate. Palin was unrehearsed on many issues and either fell back on her base reply of "maverick change reform" or talked about energy even when it wasn't relevant. Her lack of knowledge won't sway too many voters though (they've already been swayed by the interviews). I don't think anyone who thought she wasn't qualified to be president will have their minds changed by this debate. Biden gave an excellent performance.

I think you have to factor in what was said about McCain and Obama though. People will still decide more on them than the vp's. Biden attacked McCain throughout. He hit him on the economy, on iraq, on not being a maverick, on taxes, and on energy. Palin hardly mentioned obama in comparison. She tried to stick him with "voted against the troops" (which didn't work for McCain) and then tried it again even after Biden had dismissed it. I can't recall anything else she tried to attack obama with. Most of her gotcha statements were about biden disagreeing with obama--so her answer on the question about the differences between her and mccain was amusing. The rest of the time she hit the same tone she hit in her speech at the rnc.

I think the polls will show that biden won the debate, I don't know how much of an effect it will have. Probably not much, I think most of McCain's dive in the polls has been because of the economy.

I'm sure factcheck will have a seizure talking about how much of a percentage so and so was off on the number they gave and whether McCain voted against it or didn't vote blah blah.

[Koga No Goshi]

Palin "won" only because the bar was so incredibly low that she managed to jump over it by not completely choking up, not having an answer, or saying something incredibly and obviously incorrect that everyone could spot right away. Which is the expectation set by all her earlier interviews. As far as actually winning on the points, nope. She dodged several questions and never answered them, went back to talking about Alaska, being a hockey mom and energy (the things all the pundits predicted she would, since that resonated at the height of her popularity at her speech at the RNC) and other than that basically tried to sell everyone on the idea that McCain is for all exactly the same things and changes that Obama is for. Except Obama will raise your taxes. (You being = people making 250,000 or more, but that part always gets glossed over.) Not a word about how they would balance the budget especially in light of McCain's proposed 300 billion in tax cuts for the rich, just sort of a vague comment she made about "cutting spending." ANd she didn't answer the question about what they would cut from McCain's platform given the economic crisis. Obama and Biden while still vague on occasion at least admitted that they would have to make changes when the budget comes in and they see what the revenues and deficit look like in January.

So the message I'm still getting from the McCain camp is, "Trust us, have faith in us, believe in us, don't look at the voting record, don't look at how we supported Bush and right-wing ideological policies, we're really for change and reform, regulation, alternative energy and change change change. Except in Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, the surge, tax cuts for the rich. But we will change Washington."

[seireikhaan]

Palin "won" only because the bar was so incredibly low that she managed to jump over it by not completely choking up, not having an answer, or saying something incredibly and obviously incorrect that everyone could spot right away.

NO. Debate isn't about what you expected to happen prior to it. Its about what happened DURING the debate. If that was supposed to be a debate, Biden won. IF, being the key word. As it is, there is nothing to grade; it was a bunch of stump speeches, some of which didn't even correspond to the question queried before hand.

[Koga No Goshi]

NO. Debate isn't about what you expected to happen prior to it. Its about what happened DURING the debate. If that was supposed to be a debate, Biden won. IF, being the key word. As it is, there is nothing to grade; it was a bunch of stump speeches, some of which didn't even correspond to the question queried before hand.

That's why I put it in parenthesis. "Won" meaning 'previously very worried conservatives have been reassured because she wasn't as bad as previous interviews." She didn't win in a point vs. point sense, or real debate sense.

[Lemur]

I think any talk tonight about who "won" in some broad, absolute sense is just silly. You can say who won for you, but until there's polling data the rest is just hot air. Remember that these cable channels have 24 hours they have to fill somehow. Idiots sitting around a table discussing who "won" a debate is a cheap way to kill an hour.

Look at the first McCain/Obama debate. I was completely convinced it was a draw, but the polling over the next few days showed me what an idiot I am.

[Koga No Goshi]

I think any talk tonight about who "won" in some broad, absolute sense is just silly. You can say who won for you, but until there's polling data the rest is just hot air. Remember that these cable channels have 24 hours they have to fill somehow. Idiots sitting around a table discussing who "won" a debate is a cheap way to kill an hour.

Look at the first McCain/Obama debate. I was completely convinced it was a draw, but the polling over the next few days showed me what an idiot I am.

I think everyone's mean high school rhetoric teacher with the liquor hidden under the desk would make a call about who won, but that's not how we apparently judge these things.

[Gregoshi]

...but the polling over the next few days showed me what an idiot I am.

Lemur, there was a national poll conducted on whether or not you are an idiot? This polling mania has gone too far... Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Seriously these daily polls are getting quite annoying. Then throw the endless analysis of the pundiots on top and it become mind numbing. Guess I'm not a poll smoker.

[Koga No Goshi]

Lemur, there was a national poll conducted on whether or not you are an idiot? This polling mania has gone too far... Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Seriously these daily polls are getting quite annoying. Then throw the endless analysis of the pundiots on top and it become mind numbing. Guess I'm not a poll smoker.

Seriously, is anyone else annoyed with those "FOCUS GROUP RESPONSES: DEM AND REP/ MEN AND WOMEN" bar graphs along the bottom? We didn't have those last election did we? They annoyed me, badly. VERY distracting.

[Lemur]

Ignore the focus groups, and ignore the instant polls. They're meaningless. Wait at least 24 hours before poll smoking, and do it with a large sample base.

[Koga No Goshi]

Ignore the focus groups, and ignore the instant polls. They're meaningless. Wait at least 24 hours before poll smoking, and do it with a large sample base.

I TRIED to ignore them, but visually, when theyt ake up the bottom fourth of the screen and are always moving, they're very distracting.

[Koga No Goshi]

Okay, since the question of "what would it take to get you NOT to think so and so won" came up, I have a serious question.

I have TuffStuff specifically in mind, but anyone currently or formerly identified as Republican, please feel free to answer. The question is in earnest, so as little sneering sarcasm towards "the left and Obama worshippers" would be appreciated.

How come you're voting McCain (if you are)?

I honestly... sincere here, not being a jerk.... have no idea why, at all, beyond "because you're Republican."

[GeneralHankerchief]

How come you're voting McCain (if you are)?

First of all, let me preface this by saying my vote is up in the air between McCain and Barr.

If I DO decide to vote McCain, it will be for the following reasons:

1. I think he has a legitimate chance of winning. If it looks like Obama will pull away and the media's calling it for him ahead of time, I'd rather make a statement with my vote and go Barr.

2. I have confidence that he will restore fiscal conservatism and discipline to Washington. Admittedly, my faith has been shaken recently with McCain's "yes" vote to that pork-barrelled monstrosity called a bailout.

3. I'm scared Obama will do an even worse job than McCain. Basically, if my fear factor the day I cast my vote is high, I'm going McCain. If my disgust factor is high that day, then it's Barr.

[PanzerJaeger]

How come you're voting McCain (if you are)?

Easy enough. His views are more in sync with my own, and his vision for America makes more sense.

[Koga No Goshi]

Easy enough. His views are more in sync with my own, and his vision for America makes more sense.

Could you be a little more specific? (Fargo impersonation). Especially on the last part. I mean, we seem to do a lot of "this is my opinion, period" around here. I'm more interested in the details of why you think it makes more sense... instead of just "I think it makes more sense." If you'd be inclined to share, anyway. No pressure obviously.

[PanzerJaeger]

Could you be a little more specific? (Fargo impersonation). Especially on the last part. I mean, we seem to do a lot of "this is my opinion, period" around here. I'm more interested in the details of why you think it makes more sense... instead of just "I think it makes more sense." If you'd be inclined to share, anyway. No pressure obviously.

Well, you could really just go down the platform issue by issue. I line up with it on in most aspects. I support a small, less intrusive government, low taxes, a strong national defense, and moderately traditionalist society.

Now, I don't think Bush has been even a third as bad as he's currently being made out to be, but I actually believe McCain would be the better president for a few reasons. He's proven to actually be capable of fiscal responsibility, he's willing to compromise, he's not tethered by the evangelist movement, and he's just more professional.

John McCain actually has some claim to the titles of "reformer" and "maverick". I think he would focus on what used to be core conservative values - reform, fiscal responsibility, low taxes, and a strong defense. He also would not waste our time beating up gays and focusing on other divisive social issues that should really be left up to the states.

[CountArach]

Lemur, there was a national poll conducted on whether or not you are an idiot? This polling mania has gone too far... Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Seriously these daily polls are getting quite annoying. Then throw the endless analysis of the pundiots on top and it become mind numbing. Guess I'm not a poll smoker.

[Koga No Goshi]

Well, you could really just go down the platform issue by issue. I line up with it on in most aspects. I support a small, less intrusive government, low taxes, a strong national defense, and moderately traditionalist society.

Now, I don't think Bush has been even a third as bad as he's currently being made out to be, but I actually believe McCain would be the better president for a few reasons. He's proven to actually be capable of fiscal responsibility, he's willing to compromise, he's not tethered by the evangelist movement, and he's just more professional.

John McCain actually has some claim to the titles of "reformer" and "maverick". I think he would focus on what used to be core conservative values - reform, fiscal responsibility, low taxes, and a strong defense. He also would not waste our time beating up gays and focusing on other divisive social issues that should really be left up to the states.

With the 2nd paragraph, you think Bush has been exaggerated? I mean, do you agree that he vastly expanded government, made it more intrusive (patriot act, etc.)? I'm curious what you meant that he's not as bad as he's made out to be. By the standards of a small government, fiscal responsibility conservative, he's ... well, the worst President in U.S. history isn't he? His government is bigger than FDR or Reagan's. Just on the standard of big government and fiscal responsibility alone, let alone ideology about foreign policy or social issues, wouldn't he have to rank as one of the worst, if not the worst, president by your value system?

I can see the whole "theory" of a fiscally responsible Republican/McCain Presidency. The problem though is that he wants to give huge tax cuts to the rich, and unfortunately, despite what the ideology preaches, 8 years of that didn't create massive job creation or a wealth influx to the middle class under Bush. I have my own "ideas" about the contradiction between Republican fiscal responsibility in philosophy and then the way they do tax cuts and such, but I'm interested to hear your view first about how you reconcile proposed huge tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans, after a bailout (presumably), and with an enormous 10 trillion dollar deficit looming. The only thing he's promised to cut is pork, which works out to something like 20 billion a year, which doesn't cover his 300 billion in tax cuts. Is there some card up his sleeve that makes you think he'll end up being a good fiscal conservative in terms of deficit and budget?

[Ironside]

Hmm. No blowouts or important lines. Palin's doing fine, really, so none of the predicted slaughter. Heck, she's had a couple humorous lines.

I think the biggest impact will be Palin doing fine and undoing a lot of damage from interviews.

CR

More of a general question not directed to you directly. While I guess it's not the easiest one to answer without digging through old material, how did Palin compare to Bush?
Because if I understand the old debates correctly, a well reversed Bush supported by his quite good speechwriters and speechtrainers did quite well.

And as a slight follow up, do you expect her to improve or will she constantly need that support to not make a fool out of herself?

[Tribesman]

Palins performance in the debate

[drone]

I have TuffStuff specifically in mind, but anyone currently or formerly identified as Republican, please feel free to answer. The question is in earnest, so as little sneering sarcasm towards "the left and Obama worshippers" would be appreciated.

How come you're voting McCain (if you are)?

I'm probably voting McCain, but not because I really want to. Congress will be heavily slanted to the Democrats after this election, and the last thing I want to see is two branches of government controlled by the same party. Especially if the executive thinks it has a "mandate". Congress needs to take a whacking stick to the presidential powers, and it's unlikely to happen if it's Obama. I would have preferred Dr. No, and I'm sure several conservatives are wishing they had that option now, but that time is passed.


I was a little disappointed with the debate. Palin didn't melt down, but didn't shine either. Biden was competent and polished. But it was definitely a proxy debate. Biden has a lot of knowledge about McCain's work (being in the Senate with him for so long), so it was pretty easy for him to attack his record. Obama doesn't really have a record, and Palin (nor anyone else, really) didn't have that luxury.

[ICantSpellDawg]

To be honest, I am voting for McCain because I want conservative Supreme court justices. I don't want the Supreme court to do with Gay marriage and other nonsense in the way that they dealt with Roe v Wade. If individuals want a resolution to things that are clearly not in the constitution, take them to the legislature and stop strong arming the American people. I believe that this is where we can hold down the fort. Overturn Roe, secure the court from anti-democratic activism and force issues to be resolved in a responsible manner.

On the foreign policy side - Obama and McCain are almost comically identical in their views. I believe that McCain knows what he is talking about and that Obama is a socially minded domestic politician. He talks a good pre-fab game, but McCain is the real thing here. With the addition of Biden I am not so worried about that ticket, but I still support McCain for his intellectual honesty about the decision to go support the war in Iraq based on the intelligence understood at the time. Their differences are largelly semantic and target the more polarized segments of their respected constituencies.

I do believe that McCain is a middle-road politician. Again Obama is all hot air here whether you like him or not. He is effective at de-legitimizing opposing concerns by agreeing with them and then dismantling them, but it is parlor tricks. He has done nothing to bridge real divides when it doesn't serve him personally. I truelly believe that McCain will be seen on the other side of the isle as often as he sides with the GOP.

And then there is spending. McCain has said for so long that he wants to cut, cut, cut. I want to see this happen. I don't view Tax Cuts as spending, Obama does. I view limiting the scope of government as necessary to avoid bankruptcy. I think the government must serve as a regulator and organizer for the programs that are necessary, but the major rise in spending and taxes over the years is scary.

I like McCain's health care plan because it won't cost anywhere near as much. There are still a number of kinks to be worked out, but I (as someone who has a liver disease, adrenal insufficiency, ulcerative colitis, etc) pay under 5000 in premiums over the year. With a government system of organizing risk groups across state lines and allowing me to keep my health care whether I was at my job or not - I think we can make the plans better. We need transparency in the cost of services and incentives to reduce the cost of our own coverage. Health care is out of control and we can't give it to the black tar of governemnt - that will swallow the cost and make the underlying problem - out of control cost - even more covered up and untouchable.

Those are some of my reasons. Not all mind you, but my major priority is to ensure that people don't run to the judicial system and claim rights that don't exist without convincing the american people first. This is my major purview. I believe that neither candidate can claim real economic authority (that's why I supported Romney for pres - because it is irresponsible to elect a president that doesn't get it) and that both say largely the same thing in a different way on foreign policy - with the tie breaker to the guy who has walked the walk.

Does that do it for you?

[drone]

Palin already active in international affairs, attempting regime change in a terrorist state!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Flirting with Palin earns Pakistani president a fatwa

With some overly friendly comments to Gov. Sarah Palin at the United Nations, Asif Ali Zardari has succeeded in uniting one of Pakistan's hard-line mosques and its feminists after a few weeks in office.

A radical Muslim prayer leader said the president shamed the nation for "indecent gestures, filthy remarks, and repeated praise of a non-Muslim lady wearing a short skirt."

Feminists charged that once again a male Pakistani leader has embarrassed the country with sexist remarks. And across the board, the Pakistani press has shown disapproval.

What did President Zardari do to draw such scorn? It might have been the "gorgeous" compliment he gave Ms. Palin when the two met at the UN last week during her meet-and-greet with foreign leaders ahead of Thursday's vice presidential debate with opponent Sen. Joe Biden, the Democratic vice presidential nominee.

But the comments from Zardari didn't end there. He went on to tell Palin: "Now I know why the whole of America is crazy about you."

[Gregoshi]

Sorry CA. My carelessly worded comments were not directed at you.