View Poll Results: What is more important to you: Foreign or Domestic policy?

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Thread: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

  1. #3241
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy View Post
    So, the argument is now "4-8 years of deadlocked/vetoed congressional actions" instead of an administration who can actually affect change?

    We'd rather have 4-8 years of no solutions, instead of a solution conservatives don't like?

    This is why I'm non-partisan, and will support my opponent when they have better ideas.
    And no one better run off at the mouth and say "it's the same thing Dems do." You guys spend the rest of the time gloating that the Dems are as bad as the Reps for going along with most of the things Bush wanted since the Congressional election. Can't have it both ways. :)

    I think only people who are in some form of denial about a) what's wrong and b) how to fix it would advocate trying to make the next administration as neutered as possible. Lame ducking 2008-2012 is not going to make things better. It's the political equivalent of putting one's head in the sand during a hurricane.
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  2. #3242
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy View Post
    So, the argument is now "4-8 years of deadlocked/vetoed congressional actions" instead of an administration who can actually affect change?

    We'd rather have 4-8 years of no solutions, instead of a solution conservatives don't like?

    This is why I'm non-partisan, and will support my opponent when they have better ideas.
    It's more of "if the reps or dems control everything, they will pass a lot of stupid stuff, so we need to keep things gridlocked so only the somewhat sane stuff will pass", if I understood that mentality correctly.

    Personally I would try to find another system, than using one that's works best while not really working.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  3. #3243
    Know the dark side Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    I see what youre saying Ironside, but...

    when the grid is locked, all that passes is insane amounts of pork barrel spending to keep both sides happy, and nothing productive gets done.
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  4. #3244
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    What about just suspending government and not doing squat? How's that sound?
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    It's more of "if the reps or dems control everything, they will pass a lot of stupid stuff, so we need to keep things gridlocked so only the somewhat sane stuff will pass", if I understood that mentality correctly.
    That's the one. Things will only get done when they really need to be done. Usually, government causes more problems than they solve.

    Lame-duck refers to a president in his last legal term. If a president can work with his opposition in Congress, there is a real good possibility he will get re-elected (Reagan 1984, Clinton 1996). Gridlock ensures nothing insane gets passed, forces civility, and keeps the checks and balances in place. With both branches controlled by one party, we may as well be the UK.
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  6. #3246
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by CrossLOPER View Post
    What about just suspending government and not doing squat? How's that sound?
    This sounds like "I hate America and I want to see it collapse in on itself like the USSR did", to me.
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  7. #3247
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    In other words, why does he hate freedom? I think your post needs some smilies, Koga.

    I was a supported of McCain during the primaries, and I didn't become an Obama fanatic until Johnny Mac chose Sarah Palin. Seems I'm not alone. The first article suggests that Palin drove away many mainstream ("whitebread") Protestants:

    The Mainline shift to Sen. Obama may be partly an unintended consequence of Sen. McCain's efforts to energize evangelical Christians, including through the selection of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin. Though fiscally conservative, mainline Protestants are socially liberal - so they would be unimpressed by the Republican Party adopting the most antiabortion platform ever. Mainliners may be irritated or scared by Gov. Palin's religious language and beliefs - including her attendance at a Pentecostal church espousing "End Times" theology (that we're approaching the end of the world and Christ's return).

    In general, Mainliners have grown increasingly uncomfortable with the role the "religious right" has played in the Republican Party. According to a new survey by a progressive group called Faith in Public Life, Mainliners - by a margin of two to one -- believe public officials are too close to religious leaders. Evangelicals, by a two to one margin, think politicians should pay more attention to religion.

    The second item argues that Palin cost McCain dearly among white women in the Pacific Northwest (Crazed Rabbit's territory):

    After traveling around [Washington] state these past two weeks, I think I can pinpoint the precise day McCain lost it.

    August 29, 2008. The day he picked Sarah Palin.

    It seemed like a smart choice at the time. There are 200,000 more female voters here than male. It's nearly impossible to win this state without carrying the female vote. Especially independent women.

    What an irony Palin turned out to be. Nothing seems to be driving women to Barack Obama faster than the first female on a national ticket in 24 years.

    I guess that's the problem with Hail Mary plays; you don't really know how they're going to work out.

  8. #3248
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    white women in the Pacific Northwest (Crazed Rabbit's territory)
    This quote can look horrible taken out of context.
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  9. #3249
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Rep. Murtha, calls his constituents racists.
    Quote Originally Posted by John Murtha
    "There is no question that western Pennsylvania is a racist area."
    That guy is such a class act. Not too long ago, he also pronounced US Marines to be murderers during an investigation- which later cleared them.


    In other news, the Obama campaign has bought a bunch of billboard ad space.... in your video games. That's EA and their "dynamic" ads for you...
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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  10. #3250
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Rep. Murtha, calls his constituents racists.

    That guy is such a class act. Not too long ago, he also pronounced US Marines to be murderers during an investigation- which later cleared them.


    In other news, the Obama campaign has bought a bunch of billboard ad space.... in your video games. That's EA and their "dynamic" ads for you...
    re-post....I put that up about a page back
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    re-post....I put that up about a page back
    Which part?
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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  12. #3252
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief View Post
    This quote can look horrible taken out of context.
    Not really. Now back off of my turf.

    Lemur, I still insist some of the opinions being driven against Palin are a result of disingenuous media attacks. In those important initial "get to know the candidate" phase the media absolutely unloaded on Palin.

    CR
    Last edited by Crazed Rabbit; 10-16-2008 at 01:15.
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  13. #3253
    Standing Up For Rationality Senior Member Ronin's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Which part?
    the part about the ads
    "If given the choice to be the shepherd or the sheep... be the wolf"
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  14. #3254

    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    That guy is such a class act. Not too long ago, he also pronounced US Marines to be murderers during an investigation- which later cleared them.

    Granting the accused immunity from prosecution doesn't clear them of murder Xiahou
    Neither does dismissing charges because of a technicality concerning a conflict in the command structure clear them of murder .
    So your claim that the marines in question who murdered civilians were cleared of murder is absolute bollox , but not quite as big a pile of bollox as the marines themselves told about the murders they had carried out .

  15. #3255
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman View Post

    Granting the accused immunity from prosecution doesn't clear them of murder Xiahou
    Neither does dismissing charges because of a technicality concerning a conflict in the command structure clear them of murder .
    So your claim that the marines in question who murdered civilians were cleared of murder is absolute bollox , but not quite as big a pile of bollox as the marines themselves told about the murders they had carried out .
    Innocent until proven guilty. Technically they haven't been proven guilty, neither are there any charges, so they are legally innocent. Weak technicalities are fun to use, now I know why you guys use them so much to defend judicial activism!
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  16. #3256
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Did Obama just make up legislative history in the Senate that went against his party leadership?

    Anybody have the details on who voted for tort reform, merit pay and charter schools off hand and whether they passed or not?

    As an aside:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Is This the End of Conservatism?
    By Mona Charen; Link

    All of a sudden, this election is shaping up as a verdict on capitalism. The Obama campaign wanted it to be about George W. Bush. The McCain campaign wanted it to be about character. But instead, because the markets are shooting off in all directions like bullets from a dropped pistol, the stakes have suddenly been raised dramatically.

    We are in the midst of the worst panic in history, it's true (because it is global). But as historian John Steele Gordon helpfully pointed on in the Wall Street Journal, panics are not unusual in American history. We've experienced them almost every 20 years since 1819. Gordon blames Thomas Jefferson, which is intriguing, but the point is that we've always emerged from these periodic paroxysms intact and our economy has continued to grow. Gordon believes more sensible banking policy would prevent future panics. But if we elect a crypto-socialist like Barack Obama and give him a bigger Democrat majority in the House and a filibuster-proof Senate, banking regulation may be the least of our troubles.

    Well, you may say, "Win some, lose some. McCain isn't all that great anyway. Conservatives and Republicans will simply have to examine their consciences and come up with a winning strategy for next time." Perhaps. But there are a few problems with that sanguine approach.

    In the first place, the Democrats can, with a super-majority, change the rules of the game. They can make the District of Columbia the 51st state with two new senators (guaranteed to be Democrats in perpetuity). They can reinstitute the so-called Fairness Doctrine that required radio stations to provide equal time to all political viewpoints. While the doctrine was enforced by the Federal Communications Commission, radio stations shied away from politics altogether. With the demise of the doctrine, conservative talk radio flourished. Liberal talk radio has never found much of an audience. Reviving the doctrine would kill one of the principal irritants to liberals and Democrats -- to say nothing of disemboweling the First Amendment.

    To elect a super-majority of Democrats at a time of economic dislocation is to flirt with depression. Nearly all economists agree that two moves by the Hoover administration deepened and prolonged the panic of 1929 and turned it into the Great Depression. One was raising taxes and the other was imposing protectionist trade policies. Senator Obama proposes to do both of those things. Obama's smooth reassurance that only the top 5 percent of earners in America will see their taxes rise is a) almost certainly false, and b) besides the point. If the most productive members of society -- those who create the majority of jobs -- are taxed we will have fewer jobs. It's the old rule that if you tax something you get less of it. While Obama is killing jobs by taxing the productive, he proposes to "renegotiate" NAFTA and other trade deals thus putting the one bright corner of our economy, the export sector, in his crosshairs.

    Obama has a million schemes to redistribute the wealth of the top 5 percent, (who by the way, already pay more than 50 percent of the taxes in our steeply progressive system). He wants to provide college for "anyone who wants to go and agrees to perform community service," and community development block grants, and childcare, and universal pre-school, and housing, and retirement and on and on. He seems determined that more people will ride in the wagon than pull it.

    "Well," you may say, "if the Democrats drive the country into a deep recession, so much the worse for them. The Republicans will come back strong -- even with two senators from DC!" Perhaps. But in hard times people tend to ask for more government, not less, and this tumble started while George W. Bush was in the White House. Franklin Roosevelt continued to invoke the boogey man of Herbert Hoover long after the Depression was his own. In fact, Democrats used Hoover successfully for 40 more years!

    Finally, there is a one-way ratchet in public policy. Liberal reforms are never undone. How hard have conservatives tried to eliminate the Department of Education or subsidies to public television? Would they have more success uncreating a new nationalized health care system?

    An Obama/Pelosi/Reid regime -- if it were to get a filibuster-proof majority -- will certainly be able to shift the country's direction sharply to the left. The only question is -- would the shift be permanent?
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 10-16-2008 at 03:00.
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  17. #3257
    Feeding the Peanut Gallery Senior Member Redleg's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Well the part of the debate I was able to watch had a bit more fire in it then the last two it seems.

    I did miss the part about Joe the Plumber but its in the news now, from the first AP story on the debate that I found off of Yahoo.com

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    A video clip caught by Fox News shows Obama replying, "It's not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they've got a chance at success, too. And I think that when we spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."

    McCain referred repeatedly to that voter, Joe Wurzelbacher, a plumber from Toledo, Ohio.

    Wurzelbacher watched Wednesday night's debate and said he still thinks Obama's plan would keep him from buying the small business that employs him.
    Waiting to see how that plays in the media and the politics of the campaign. Edit: The reason I say this is that any voicing of income redistribution for years was one of the third rail statements of american politics - even though congress often has done just exactly that in many ways.

    Sure wish they would do another debate in 10 days just to see how both handle the last three weeks of the campaign for President.
    Last edited by Redleg; 10-16-2008 at 04:09.
    O well, seems like 'some' people decide to ruin a perfectly valid threat. Nice going guys... doc bean

  18. #3258

    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    I'm sure I speak for most American's when I say that my primary concern is whether or not I can afford to buy a business.

    This was my favorite moment from the debate:

    McCain: My campaign has been about the economy and jobs!
    Obama: hahahaha

  19. #3259
    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Koga No Goshi View Post
    This sounds like "I hate America and I want to see it collapse in on itself like the USSR did", to me.
    It fits perfectly with the "do what ever I want and throw away trillions at nothing" routine that has become prevalent lately.
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  20. #3260

    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    The debate is a win for Obama. Obama took the wind out of McCain's sails by basically bringing up Ayers first. He pounded McCain on health care and all McCain could do is repeat the same falsehoods regarding Obama's plans. McCain was talking about helping special needs children and Obama said he agreed, but how can we do that with a spending freeze? When McCain wanted to go back and forth about the attack adds, Obama turned ti back to the issues.
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  21. #3261
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Not really. Now back off of my turf.

    Lemur, I still insist some of the opinions being driven against Palin are a result of disingenuous media attacks. In those important initial "get to know the candidate" phase the media absolutely unloaded on Palin.

    CR
    She had some god-awful interviews and aside from those has steadfastly refused interviews or to meet with reporters. If you want to blame anyone, there is no legitimate blame to place except on the McCain campaign--- either for picking someone incapable of answering even relatively basic questions without careful scripting and going off topic to talking points and practiced one-liners, or for scripting her way too tightly and not letting her "perform" on her own. You can't blame the media. Anderson Cooper just did a segment last night about the "rumor/accusation" that the media is not giving her a chance, and showed his crew asking her multiple times to come talk to the camera and her completely blowing them off.
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  22. #3262

    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Tribesman
    Granting the accused immunity from prosecution doesn't clear them of murder Xiahou
    Neither does dismissing charges because of a technicality concerning a conflict in the command structure clear them of murder .
    So your claim that the marines in question who murdered civilians were cleared of murder is absolute bollox , but not quite as big a pile of bollox as the marines themselves told about the murders they had carried out .
    I forgot how much time those brave young Americans were given. Could you refresh my memory Tribes?


    Quote Originally Posted by Tuff's Article
    Obama has a million schemes to redistribute the wealth of the top 5 percent, (who by the way, already pay more than 50 percent of the taxes in our steeply progressive system). He wants to provide college for "anyone who wants to go and agrees to perform community service," and community development block grants, and childcare, and universal pre-school, and housing, and retirement and on and on. He seems determined that more people will ride in the wagon than pull it.
    Thank you. You can add to that universal healthcare, expanding the military, and tax cuts to 95%(!@!) of Americans. Its going to suck to be in the top bracket the next 4 years.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki
    I'm sure I speak for most American's when I say that my primary concern is whether or not I can afford to buy a business.
    You may not have high aspirations, but someone has to create jobs.
    Last edited by PanzerJaeger; 10-16-2008 at 04:52.

  23. #3263

    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    Thank you. You can add to that universal healthcare, expanding the military, and tax cuts to 95%(!@!) of Americans. Its going to suck to be in the top bracket the next 4 years.
    Really? I'll switch with you if you want...

  24. #3264

    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    Really? I'll switch with you if you want...
    So would I!
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  25. #3265
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    Really? I'll switch with you if you want...
    Hehe, I love this victim mentality like it hasn't majorly sucked to be in the bottom 95% for the last 25 or 30 years.
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  26. #3266

    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    Really? I'll switch with you if you want...
    You should see my parent's taxes. With federal, state, and local charges plus the CPA firm they use to try and get out of them they're paying nearly 50 cents on the dollar. Would you be comfortable paying that?

    And trust me, when Barack raises taxes my father won't let his personal income slip - he'll make up for it through lay offs and hiring freezes at his properties.

  27. #3267

    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Quote Originally Posted by PanzerJaeger View Post
    You should see my parent's taxes. With federal, state, and local charges plus the CPA firm they use to try and get out of them they're paying nearly 50 cents on the dollar. Would you be comfortable paying that?
    I don't know, would I be making more than $350 a week?

    And trust me, when Barack raises taxes my father won't let his personal income slip - he'll make up for it through lay offs and hiring freezes at his properties.

  28. #3268
    Member Member Koga No Goshi's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    Enter the election thread and bam, someone doing Draco Malfoy impersonations.
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  29. #3269
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    I could only see PJ's post because it was quoted - but it did make me laugh.

    How dare those nasty governments make us pay more just because we are rolling in money! We'll get them back though. We'll sack loads of people and it'll be ALL THEIR FAULT!

    Look I'm hurting myself mummy - are you sorry now?

    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 10-16-2008 at 10:42. Reason: Adjusting user-names tends to provoke bad feeling
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  30. #3270
    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Elections 2008: General Elections -- Analysis and Commentary

    The problems of the rich.... i can only dream....
    In remembrance of our great Admin Tosa Inu, A tireless worker with the patience of a saint. As long as I live I will not forget you. Thank you for everything!

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