Celtic Two-Handers

[Theodotos I]

"presented the possibility"? That's a nice sounding way of putting it. I saw zero sources or mentions of texts or anything that had information about it - there was just demands, in a way we think is offensive and is why we are really irritated at dealing with it, calling them fantasy units and saying the unit possibly came from a recent atrocious movie. Seriously - you wonder why we lock threads, get pissed off, and won't reply to your offensive PM's also? I know nothing about those units, but I know disrespect that we are not due when I see it.

As we have said time and time again: "Show us why you did this" is tiring. "This (with "this" being more than half a sentence without sources, etc.) is why I don't think X is the case, so could you respond why you think X is the case?" is more likely to get a response.

Try reading this post, which has been up for well over a year on this same subject, and was posted by someone much more adept at dealing with this mess than I am: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=79193

Good response, Teleklos. This team has put a phenomenal amount of effort into a mod which is unparalleled in my experience with computer gaming. I wish people would show some respect for that. You guys have done your homework. If someone isn't happy, then they need to mod the game themselves. From scratch. My two cents.

[Tancredii]

For those that have access to a copy page 58 of Peter Connolly's Hannibal and the enemies of Rome has a nice summary of the development of Celts swords. It is brief but does give the dimensions - unfortunately he does not postulate as to why sword lengths increased from 55-65cm (450-250 BC) to 80 or 90cm by 120-50 BC.

I don't think we can really submit statues as evidence of size - lets face it all men from the Greek Islands would be hung like a horse based on the statues your other half brings back from a holiday!

[blitzkrieg80]

Calling the British "sword masters" a fantasy unit is still valid, since no swords anything like the Port Nidau models have turned up in Britain or Ireland. The continental equivalent, if not fantasy, is still both conjecture and anachronistic even if real (much more so than the lorica segmentata everyone gets so annoyed about)

Speaking of fantasy, what would you call suggesting authority based on random internet postings? oh, sorry... was there ever a single legitimate academic citation? Maybe I missed when you bothered with that. EB does use citations in our internal forum. We don't have to prove it to you. We might have a collection of such available for the public in the future to dismiss the rag of some harpies, but we certainly don't need internet evidence held to your subjective standards. When you see anything posted concerning the internet by EB members, that's called a treat. Treat for you (us too)- it is no authority. Much more fun and interesting than nothing.


Concerning swords, so, what is the argument? That the small amount of evidence we have for the exact EB starting time period does not hold completely convincing evidence? and that somehow the technology was lost, since later there are no examples even though it was available earlier? Atlanteans! I suppose axes are similarly a lost technology... thus the Germanic tribes became adept at felling trees with clubs, since the Battle Axe culture was gone and there are no examples of axes... now we can come back to 'Celts Don't Know Axe' topic. What fun the internet is.

[lobf]

Speaking of fantasy, what would you call suggesting authority based on random internet postings? oh, sorry... was there ever a single legitimate academic citation? Maybe I missed when you bothered with that. EB does use citations in our internal forum. We don't have to prove it to you. We might have a collection of such available for the public in the future to dismiss the rag of some harpies, but we certainly don't need internet evidence held to your subjective standards.

Let's please not let this turn into a flame war. All the mean-spiritedness could be avoided by just posting contrasting evidence.

[blitzkrieg80]

Let's please not let this turn into a flame war. All the mean-spiritedness could be avoided by just posting contrasting evidence.

Ditto.

[Foot]

We have literally said a million times that at the moment we do not have the resources to respond to your concerns at this time. While we are developing EBII we will revisit these sources and make new conclusions. Until that time we really cannot waste our time responding to your endless and repeative questions. Tempting us to respond these questions by either directly or indirectly bringing the EB name into disrupute is not helpful at all.

If you are concerned with celtic swords in the La Tene period perhaps you should try at a forum that specialises in that area. We cannot help you at this time.

Foot

[russia almighty]

Wasn't some of the stuff from a uni data base? I don't know about you but I could get in deep shit from letting people not at uni see material on it (cause it's a form of piracy if I were to just copy-pasta a page and photobucket it)

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Wasn't there a thread recently where some of the same folks were saying we shouldn't have any Celtic units with swords at all? That they were just used when a spear broke or when they wanted to cut the head off dead enemies? That one got quiet suddenly. Oh well, all of it is "fantasy" I guess.

[HFox]

The continental equivalent, if not fantasy, is still both conjecture and anachronistic even if real

This statement confuses me.....is there a point to it. Or is it just fantasy to?

(much more so than the lorica segmentata everyone gets so annoyed about)

no......everyone does not get annoyed about it. I don't, I know he doesn't, so that's two of us, so the statement is a bit....glib

Thank you and goodnight.

Good point

Most of us just enjoy what has been given to us on a plate by a bunch of people working their asses off.

[Geoffrey S]

Good to know that the most substantial source posted thus far is an image cobbled together on swordforum.com. Class act.

[Elmetiacos]

Wasn't there a thread recently where some of the same folks were saying we shouldn't have any Celtic units with swords at all? That they were just used when a spear broke or when they wanted to cut the head off dead enemies? That one got quiet suddenly. Oh well, all of it is "fantasy" I guess.

It suggested that there may well not have been any formations in a Celtic army entirely armed with swords as primary weapons in the EB period, because the sword seemed to have declined in functionality and importance as a primary weapon. This applied only to Gauls and Britons, by the way; the Galatians apparently carried on using swords. It got quiet because nobody else posted anything on the topic. That's what happens when nobody else posts: the thread goes quiet.

[Elmetiacos]

Let's please not let this turn into a flame war. All the mean-spiritedness could be avoided by just posting contrasting evidence.

All the evidence is in that well-known academic work "La Tene Gaul" published by the University of Prague - https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=502 in the chapter "There Were No Two Handed Swords"...

[blitzkrieg80]

Elmetiacos, linking to Frostwulf's post, who took the time to make citations- that is not the same thing at all as making a citation yourself. Or is your argument that the 'Celts are overpowered'?

[Frostwulf]

Blitz I believe he is referring to the fictitious citation made by Psycho:

(‘Indo-European History’, ‘La Tene Gaul’, XVI, 5.63, Univerzita Karlova v Praze)

He is insinuating that the 'Celtic' two handed sword would find a place in that fake citation.

I'm curious about the 'Celtic' two handed sword thing myself, has there been any professional opinion on the subject or classical texts which speak of such things?
On another similar subject:

They precisely confirmed attestations of Sassanian cavalry wielding swords as "large as a man", and depictions of "Kushano-Hephtalite" cavalry in cave paintings and bowls found in Afghanistan. I am not making this up. You read it correctly, a sword measuring six feet in length.

Is there classical writings of these swords being used from horseback or were they ceremonial? The same question holds true of the cave paintings and bowls, were the swords represented being used in battle or just accompanying the warrior? Also since they didn't have stirrups, did they have some kind of saddle like that of the 'Celts'?

[Ibrahim]

about the records in Persia, I dunno, but judging from the Arabs fear of the Savaran's sword and bow play, the answer is yes, they probably did exist (dhi qar I gathered was a huge upset in Arabia, since the Aras actually defeated the persians). and aren't those photos enough? and the Archeological dig (I'm confirming atm). as for saddle, the sassanid era was famed for the introduction of the high saddle (ancestral to a knight's saddle. its possible to wield good sized swiords on horsvback sine stirrups: knights are ofetn depicted fighting with a straight posture, and with their feet off the stirrup

and for all those who are flamin around about history, open the spoiler (the moderaters might want to read the first sentance in particular)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

and before this goes out of hand, please close this thread. Its not right to be flaming each other over historical info like so. this can be settled elsewhere, like a debate room (or the back room)...and its not right for Elmetiacos to insult a person's intelligence (if you rellly reffered to the blatently false info from this psycho fellow), or Blitz to retort like that. I've learned my lesson about these things, and think you all need it too as well. If poeple want to ask questions, they got The assorted historical questions thread-its there for a purpose (I'm using it nowadays), namely for poeple to answer questions with out distracting the EB members, who need to focus on EB 2 at the moment. and please read the thread from khelvan about the mod. its solves so may problems.

this team has put up with many a harsh critiques before, and they are probably fed up, but I say this: they have put their time and effort into this (I gather 3 years now), to realize this project, and to make this more historically accurate. they have had to put up with lack of sources (for the languages in Europe), lack of readily available good info on equipment, and a need to rummage through practicaly ever library they have access to these morsels of information (judging from the bibliography). they have also gone through several changes in crew (some leaving, others quieting, or even god forbid-dying), further adding to the trouble they have to go through. for all I know, the info they got this stuff from was lost with the dissappearence of these members. no one can claim to know everything about any period of time in the past (hear me Elmetiacos?), and even though some may come very very close (like TPC), no one has all the answers. thus they have to rely on their judgement, and weigh it against the evidence already presented. thus have they come up with what they did. I believe that they have come up with the most historically detailed mod that they can humanly make, without having the power of a 'arraf (a person who can literally see the past using magic, and is Islamically prohibited). if you want 100% accuracy, I suggest a time machine for your purposes. in the meantime, EB has come as close as humanly possible to the ideal of a ultra-realistic mod, and thus we must be thankful poeple like the EB team, or the RTR team, exist.

lastly: who's psycho? (ok that came out wrong) (PM if you want to tell me)

sorry for this lecture on ethics, but it had to come out. my 2cents

[The Persian Cataphract]

Is there classical writings of these swords being used from horseback or were they ceremonial? The same question holds true of the cave paintings and bowls, were the swords represented being used in battle or just accompanying the warrior? Also since they didn't have stirrups, did they have some kind of saddle like that of the 'Celts'?

This is a valid point. The findings in Aphrodisias yielded a large blade which was sharp only on one side, even though the blade appeared to be of symmetrical design. It is possible that it may have been a ceremonial blade, or a part of some treasury (Again, the hilt was found to be integrated, presuming that the sword had the feeling of a one-piece work; This is not usual in Sassanian sword-crafting). The main source behind the claim lies mainly in the chronicles of Al-Tabari and Al-Baladhuri where they recount the equipment of a Sassanian cavalry during Chosroës' feudalistic reforms, probably inspired by his Hephtalite enemy to the east. The silver-bowl (Which depicts the hunt and three similarly attired cavalry) is dated somewhere between 4th and 6th centuries CE. The swords were hung from belts, rather than from the saddle. There is little doubt about the size; It's a bit stylized, but seen in matter of proportion, it's a good thumb for assessing how the Aphrodisias blade might have been used. In any case, the dish portrays one of the huntsmen actually using this blade (Which is not surprising; Three similarly armed cavalry bearing the sword for show... Not likely; This wasn't exactly regalia in the sense of the Medeo-Achaemenid acinaces and Sassanian royalty eventually leaned towards the Avar-styled sabres with pistol-grips)

The Sassanians in the beginning had to largely rely upon Parthian methods and techniques, however by the 3rd and 4th centuries they had conceived an improved framed saddle, which gave them greater elevation. It had a cantle to the back portion, and generally speaking two guard clamps which allowed them their famed rigid "ballerina posture" (Feet drooping down; Parthian depictions are more archaic where the riders are visibly applying pressure with their knees). Previously the horned saddle (Allegedly of unknown origins) was used by the Parthians and sparsely by the Sassanians as well.

There is however reason to believe that the late Sassanians began to accept the stirrup as a useful element in cavalry warfare (It was certainly not unknown to them; They interacted with Indians for much longer than any other historical power, and must have known of the toe-stirrup); Even though sadly the feet of the Tâq-î Bûstân relief are damaged beyond repair, mainly by factors such as over-handed thrusting of a kontos, and some support provided by the Pûr-î Vahman dish (Which is in late Sassanian style, clearly showing stirrups, but is dated between 7th and 8th centuries CE) suggest that it was emerging. However during a time when the Sassanian clibanarius was a more lightly armoured incarnation of Shâpûr's thousand-strong cavalry vanguard.

[Glewas]

So I am not the only one who found this a bit odd. I too raised this same question a little while back...

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=48920

Since I've no internet connection at home I haven't been able to read back through that thread, but I do remember some justification for the swords as being pretty much what has been concluded here...

That of the sword blade being a "standard" single-hand length but with a two-handed/hand and a half grip. The new version of the Kluddargos represents this better idea than the old, which seemed to have a very large, pointy, claymore-like sword.

The picture of all the sword blades kind of backs this theory up as I am pretty sure blade lenghts don't exceed your average single-hand size, but, as observed, there are some pretty long tangs. Such long tangs could point to hand and a half use, although I don't think they are long enough for a true two-handed use. However, nothing is for certain as the handle/grip materials survive the ravages of time so we cannot tell the exactly the size of the guards, pommels, grips, etc...

Also, I think many of the blades from above picture are from the plates of Navarro's "Finds from the site of La Tene," and if anyone is interested I might be able to find some stats on those swords... Although the text is mainly concerned with the scabbards I would think that there should be good info on the blades themselves... haven't really became acquainted with the book yet.

[paullus]

the basis for the Lugian two-handers was, I believe, a couple of Przeworsk-culture swords of rather impressive size and weight with long tangs.

the first, from Lachmirowice, had a blade that was right at 6 1/4cm wide and just over 87cm long. its tang, which had broken, was 13cm long at the break, but estimated by the archaeologists, based on comparison to other Przeworsk sword tangs, at around 18cm total. i haven't seen a dating for the sword more secure than "Przeworsk culture."

the second is less significant, and from Drbzankowo, a sword in a scabbard. I'm not sure on blade dimensions, but the scabbard is just barely shy of 1m long (98cm). as for width, the sword was excavated withdrawn a little over 1cm from its scabbard, and the blade there, at its base, is nearly 5cm wide. so its still a hefty blade, though I'm not sure what the blade length should be thought to be based on the scabbard. the tang, which is complete, is shorter, only 10cm long.

I hope that helps a bit. I'm not really up on hand-and-a-half and two-handed swords and whatnot, but that first sword particularly seems like it would have been too heavy to use with one hand, and also clearly seems to have had a tang long enough 1) to support such a heavy sword, and 2) to allow at least two hands to grip it (third hand anybody?).

EDIT: if the sword from Lachmirowice is from one of the main concentrations of burials there, its likely from either the 1c bc or the late 1c ad. The site was occupied throughout the Przeworsk period, and I haven't seen anything to indicate that particular sword.

[Irishmafia2020]

@ Glewas -
Good link, that discussion provided some good background to what the team was thinking when they planned these apparently controversial units (not controversial to me, mind you, but surprisingly incendiary in the passion they cause). Based on the linked discussion, the units do not seem to be planned as fantasy units, but rather are intended to reflect the diversity of weapons used by various Celtic tribes...

[Ibrahim]

so I'm not the only one who read Tabari
*no longer feels alone*

anyways, this thread is starting to look better.

[Glewas]

the basis for the Lugian two-handers was, I believe, a couple of Przeworsk-culture swords of rather impressive size and weight with long tangs.

the first, from Lachmirowice, had a blade that was right at 6 1/4cm wide and just over 87cm long. its tang, which had broken, was 13cm long at the break, but estimated by the archaeologists, based on comparison to other Przeworsk sword tangs, at around 18cm total. i haven't seen a dating for the sword more secure than "Przeworsk culture."

the second is less significant, and from Drbzankowo, a sword in a scabbard. I'm not sure on blade dimensions, but the scabbard is just barely shy of 1m long (98cm). as for width, the sword was excavated withdrawn a little over 1cm from its scabbard, and the blade there, at its base, is nearly 5cm wide. so its still a hefty blade, though I'm not sure what the blade length should be thought to be based on the scabbard. the tang, which is complete, is shorter, only 10cm long.

If my conversions are correct then...

Lachmirowice:
width: 2.4"
overall length: 34.25"
tang length: 7"

Drbznkowo:
width: 2"
overall length: 38.5" (scabbard)
tang length: 4"

Unless the overall length doesn't include the tang length (ie. just the blade length) then I wouldn't really consider these anything more than single-handed swords (see Albion Swords Next Gen swords for reference). A 18cm/7in. tang can be gripped by two hands but the guard, pommel, even a pommel nut would have to be taken into consideration, which would leave little room for multiple hands depending, of course, on the size of the hilt furniture.

Paullus, do you have any pictures of the two swords or thier weights? The 6 1/4cm width on the Lachmirowice sword is interesting especially if the sword doesn't have much taper along its length or width making for a possible hefty blade.

[Elmetiacos]

Isn't Lachmirowice a Roman sword anyway: http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=11056 ?

On the earlier thread Glewas linked to, I see no reference to the uncommonly large Swiss discoveries, only Irish sites. Fortunately, Aegis Archaeology has site reports for all the places mentioned.
Here's the site report from Curraghgraigue Upper: http://www.aegisarchaeology.com/inde...gue-Upper.html and there are no two handed swords.
Here's Rockfield: http://www.aegisarchaeology.com/inde...nty-Kerry.html and again, no swords, only cremated remains.
Here's Ballykane Hill: http://www.aegisarchaeology.com/inde....-Kildare.html and once again, no mention of swords, only copper and stone tools along with human remains.
Finally, Newtown: http://www.aegisarchaeology.com/inde....-Kildare.html and despite 3,000 years of occupancy there's no mention of any swords.

There's a prize of a silver torc once owned by Venutius himself to the first person who can find a reference in Polybius or Tacitus to the Britons using two handed swords...

If the two-handers had been given the Helvetii, I'd have a harder time arguing that they were "fantasy" but there's nothing I can find so far supports Britons or Lugians using them.

[paullus]

no, i don't think that's the same sword. the tang appears much shorter, and if the discussion on RAT is any indication, the sword is of a transitionary size between the gladius and spatha. lachmirowice has been a pretty productive cemetary, with quite a few warrior burials across 3+ centuries.

and glewas, sorry for the slow response, i've been on holiday and i still am. i should have posted the pic the first time, but i prioritized getting materials together for our unit artists, who are creating some truly beautiful units for EB2.

[Frostwulf]

Thanks for the information on the Sassanids (swords,saddles etc.), very interesting. I am woefully ignorant of that area of the world, I would like to get more acquainted with it. Any suggestions on a book that would give me a broad overview history of the region?

If the two-handers had been given the Helvetii, I'd have a harder time arguing that they were "fantasy" but there's nothing I can find so far supports Britons or Lugians using them.

Why?

[Power2the1]

I think Elmetaicos is referring to the 100 two-handed swords were found near Bern, Switzerland, at a place called Teifenau.

Which brings up a good point about the distribution of weapons originating from that area. I've read that the Noricum/Helveti areas (where the 100 two-handed swords were found) held the biggest weapon manufacturing areas in Celtic Europe. Other areas like the Aedui weapons center at Cabillonum (modern Chalon-sur-Saone) was known as a big trading/military outpost.

Now I am not saying that two-handed swords were all the rage in the La Tene period of Europe. Not at all. I cannot find pictures of these two-handed Tiefenau weapons anywhere. However, the valleys of the La Tene heartland lay in the crux of the Rhine and the Rhone river systems and were a hop, skip, and a jump from the Danubian river system corridor. With the weapon making abilities of the region combined with the local river/transport system, its perfectly reasonable to believe that the metalworks of the Alpine region, including two-handed swords, could reach anywhere in Europe even as far as Britain especially when one considers the large continental migrations to that island.

[Elmetiacos]

What makes you think that the swords at Tiefenau were two handed? I was referring to the unusually long sword mentioned above from Port Nidau.
Who still believes in these "large continental migrations"?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

What makes you think that the swords at Tiefenau were two handed?

I am not at a university library currently but there is some remark of it in a few places it seems, including here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=HNf...um=4&ct=result

[Elmetiacos]

John Lubbock's Pre-historic Times, as Illustrated by Ancient Remains, and the Manners and Customs of Modern Savages written in 1865. Hmm.

EDIT - I'll ask on the Continental Celtic group if anyone knows of a catalogue of Tiefenau discoveries. It's mainly linguists on there, though, so it could be some time.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Thanks for the information on the Sassanids (swords,saddles etc.), very interesting. I am woefully ignorant of that area of the world, I would like to get more acquainted with it. Any suggestions on a book that would give me a broad overview history of the region?

I've got an entry over at TWC: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...&postcount=239

As for militarily-themed literature, easy to read, any Osprey and Montvert work will fit the bill.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

John Lubbock's Pre-historic Times, as Illustrated by Ancient Remains, and the Manners and Customs of Modern Savages written in 1865. Hmm.

Well, he probably made the shit up I guess then, since it was that old.

edit: The site was discovered in 1851 - there are some French reports from 1852 that seem to summarize it, but I've no access to them here. Someone mentioning 14 years later that just under a hundred two-handed swords were found there doesn't seem to merit the response you provided, but meh.