Celtic Two-Handers

[lobf]

Speaking of fantasy, what would you call suggesting authority based on random internet postings? oh, sorry... was there ever a single legitimate academic citation? Maybe I missed when you bothered with that. EB does use citations in our internal forum. We don't have to prove it to you. We might have a collection of such available for the public in the future to dismiss the rag of some harpies, but we certainly don't need internet evidence held to your subjective standards.

Let's please not let this turn into a flame war. All the mean-spiritedness could be avoided by just posting contrasting evidence.

[blitzkrieg80]

Let's please not let this turn into a flame war. All the mean-spiritedness could be avoided by just posting contrasting evidence.

Ditto.

[Foot]

We have literally said a million times that at the moment we do not have the resources to respond to your concerns at this time. While we are developing EBII we will revisit these sources and make new conclusions. Until that time we really cannot waste our time responding to your endless and repeative questions. Tempting us to respond these questions by either directly or indirectly bringing the EB name into disrupute is not helpful at all.

If you are concerned with celtic swords in the La Tene period perhaps you should try at a forum that specialises in that area. We cannot help you at this time.

Foot

[russia almighty]

Wasn't some of the stuff from a uni data base? I don't know about you but I could get in deep shit from letting people not at uni see material on it (cause it's a form of piracy if I were to just copy-pasta a page and photobucket it)

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Wasn't there a thread recently where some of the same folks were saying we shouldn't have any Celtic units with swords at all? That they were just used when a spear broke or when they wanted to cut the head off dead enemies? That one got quiet suddenly. Oh well, all of it is "fantasy" I guess.

[Elmetiacos]

Wasn't there a thread recently where some of the same folks were saying we shouldn't have any Celtic units with swords at all? That they were just used when a spear broke or when they wanted to cut the head off dead enemies? That one got quiet suddenly. Oh well, all of it is "fantasy" I guess.

It suggested that there may well not have been any formations in a Celtic army entirely armed with swords as primary weapons in the EB period, because the sword seemed to have declined in functionality and importance as a primary weapon. This applied only to Gauls and Britons, by the way; the Galatians apparently carried on using swords. It got quiet because nobody else posted anything on the topic. That's what happens when nobody else posts: the thread goes quiet.

[Elmetiacos]

Let's please not let this turn into a flame war. All the mean-spiritedness could be avoided by just posting contrasting evidence.

All the evidence is in that well-known academic work "La Tene Gaul" published by the University of Prague - https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=502 in the chapter "There Were No Two Handed Swords"...

[blitzkrieg80]

Elmetiacos, linking to Frostwulf's post, who took the time to make citations- that is not the same thing at all as making a citation yourself. Or is your argument that the 'Celts are overpowered'?

[Frostwulf]

Blitz I believe he is referring to the fictitious citation made by Psycho:

(‘Indo-European History’, ‘La Tene Gaul’, XVI, 5.63, Univerzita Karlova v Praze)

He is insinuating that the 'Celtic' two handed sword would find a place in that fake citation.

I'm curious about the 'Celtic' two handed sword thing myself, has there been any professional opinion on the subject or classical texts which speak of such things?
On another similar subject:

They precisely confirmed attestations of Sassanian cavalry wielding swords as "large as a man", and depictions of "Kushano-Hephtalite" cavalry in cave paintings and bowls found in Afghanistan. I am not making this up. You read it correctly, a sword measuring six feet in length.

Is there classical writings of these swords being used from horseback or were they ceremonial? The same question holds true of the cave paintings and bowls, were the swords represented being used in battle or just accompanying the warrior? Also since they didn't have stirrups, did they have some kind of saddle like that of the 'Celts'?

[Ibrahim]

about the records in Persia, I dunno, but judging from the Arabs fear of the Savaran's sword and bow play, the answer is yes, they probably did exist (dhi qar I gathered was a huge upset in Arabia, since the Aras actually defeated the persians). and aren't those photos enough? and the Archeological dig (I'm confirming atm). as for saddle, the sassanid era was famed for the introduction of the high saddle (ancestral to a knight's saddle. its possible to wield good sized swiords on horsvback sine stirrups: knights are ofetn depicted fighting with a straight posture, and with their feet off the stirrup

and for all those who are flamin around about history, open the spoiler (the moderaters might want to read the first sentance in particular)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

and before this goes out of hand, please close this thread. Its not right to be flaming each other over historical info like so. this can be settled elsewhere, like a debate room (or the back room)...and its not right for Elmetiacos to insult a person's intelligence (if you rellly reffered to the blatently false info from this psycho fellow), or Blitz to retort like that. I've learned my lesson about these things, and think you all need it too as well. If poeple want to ask questions, they got The assorted historical questions thread-its there for a purpose (I'm using it nowadays), namely for poeple to answer questions with out distracting the EB members, who need to focus on EB 2 at the moment. and please read the thread from khelvan about the mod. its solves so may problems.

this team has put up with many a harsh critiques before, and they are probably fed up, but I say this: they have put their time and effort into this (I gather 3 years now), to realize this project, and to make this more historically accurate. they have had to put up with lack of sources (for the languages in Europe), lack of readily available good info on equipment, and a need to rummage through practicaly ever library they have access to these morsels of information (judging from the bibliography). they have also gone through several changes in crew (some leaving, others quieting, or even god forbid-dying), further adding to the trouble they have to go through. for all I know, the info they got this stuff from was lost with the dissappearence of these members. no one can claim to know everything about any period of time in the past (hear me Elmetiacos?), and even though some may come very very close (like TPC), no one has all the answers. thus they have to rely on their judgement, and weigh it against the evidence already presented. thus have they come up with what they did. I believe that they have come up with the most historically detailed mod that they can humanly make, without having the power of a 'arraf (a person who can literally see the past using magic, and is Islamically prohibited). if you want 100% accuracy, I suggest a time machine for your purposes. in the meantime, EB has come as close as humanly possible to the ideal of a ultra-realistic mod, and thus we must be thankful poeple like the EB team, or the RTR team, exist.

lastly: who's psycho? (ok that came out wrong) (PM if you want to tell me)

sorry for this lecture on ethics, but it had to come out. my 2cents

[The Persian Cataphract]

Is there classical writings of these swords being used from horseback or were they ceremonial? The same question holds true of the cave paintings and bowls, were the swords represented being used in battle or just accompanying the warrior? Also since they didn't have stirrups, did they have some kind of saddle like that of the 'Celts'?

This is a valid point. The findings in Aphrodisias yielded a large blade which was sharp only on one side, even though the blade appeared to be of symmetrical design. It is possible that it may have been a ceremonial blade, or a part of some treasury (Again, the hilt was found to be integrated, presuming that the sword had the feeling of a one-piece work; This is not usual in Sassanian sword-crafting). The main source behind the claim lies mainly in the chronicles of Al-Tabari and Al-Baladhuri where they recount the equipment of a Sassanian cavalry during Chosroës' feudalistic reforms, probably inspired by his Hephtalite enemy to the east. The silver-bowl (Which depicts the hunt and three similarly attired cavalry) is dated somewhere between 4th and 6th centuries CE. The swords were hung from belts, rather than from the saddle. There is little doubt about the size; It's a bit stylized, but seen in matter of proportion, it's a good thumb for assessing how the Aphrodisias blade might have been used. In any case, the dish portrays one of the huntsmen actually using this blade (Which is not surprising; Three similarly armed cavalry bearing the sword for show... Not likely; This wasn't exactly regalia in the sense of the Medeo-Achaemenid acinaces and Sassanian royalty eventually leaned towards the Avar-styled sabres with pistol-grips)

The Sassanians in the beginning had to largely rely upon Parthian methods and techniques, however by the 3rd and 4th centuries they had conceived an improved framed saddle, which gave them greater elevation. It had a cantle to the back portion, and generally speaking two guard clamps which allowed them their famed rigid "ballerina posture" (Feet drooping down; Parthian depictions are more archaic where the riders are visibly applying pressure with their knees). Previously the horned saddle (Allegedly of unknown origins) was used by the Parthians and sparsely by the Sassanians as well.

There is however reason to believe that the late Sassanians began to accept the stirrup as a useful element in cavalry warfare (It was certainly not unknown to them; They interacted with Indians for much longer than any other historical power, and must have known of the toe-stirrup); Even though sadly the feet of the Tâq-î Bûstân relief are damaged beyond repair, mainly by factors such as over-handed thrusting of a kontos, and some support provided by the Pûr-î Vahman dish (Which is in late Sassanian style, clearly showing stirrups, but is dated between 7th and 8th centuries CE) suggest that it was emerging. However during a time when the Sassanian clibanarius was a more lightly armoured incarnation of Shâpûr's thousand-strong cavalry vanguard.

[Glewas]

So I am not the only one who found this a bit odd. I too raised this same question a little while back...

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=48920

Since I've no internet connection at home I haven't been able to read back through that thread, but I do remember some justification for the swords as being pretty much what has been concluded here...

That of the sword blade being a "standard" single-hand length but with a two-handed/hand and a half grip. The new version of the Kluddargos represents this better idea than the old, which seemed to have a very large, pointy, claymore-like sword.

The picture of all the sword blades kind of backs this theory up as I am pretty sure blade lenghts don't exceed your average single-hand size, but, as observed, there are some pretty long tangs. Such long tangs could point to hand and a half use, although I don't think they are long enough for a true two-handed use. However, nothing is for certain as the handle/grip materials survive the ravages of time so we cannot tell the exactly the size of the guards, pommels, grips, etc...

Also, I think many of the blades from above picture are from the plates of Navarro's "Finds from the site of La Tene," and if anyone is interested I might be able to find some stats on those swords... Although the text is mainly concerned with the scabbards I would think that there should be good info on the blades themselves... haven't really became acquainted with the book yet.