Results 1 to 27 of 27

Thread: Musharraf stands down

  1. #1
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Hunting the Snark, a long way from Tipperary...
    Posts
    5,604

    Default Musharraf stands down

    The embattled president of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf, has announced his resignation in the face of impeachment proceedings.

    No doubt he will be off to enjoy retirement in some luxury on an island somewhere. However, the country he leaves is unlikely to be so lucky. The new government coalition is fragile and fractious, not to mention full of corruption. No doubt the army is considering its future role - and the Islamic fundamentalists that infest the security services.

    Musharraf has been bleeding power for some time. Now he is going, what is the future for Pakistan?
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

  2. #2
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    The new government coalition is fragile and fractious, not to mention full of corruption. No doubt the army is considering its future role - and the Islamic fundamentalists that infest the security services.
    What else is new in Pakistan? The 'Land of the Pure' is another monstrous birth of Islamism. Or Islamo-Fascism, if we consider the prominent role of militarism and machoism in its history. After fifty years part of the population is still eating grass because Islamism prohibits economic initiative, free thinking and free movement, particularly of women. Properly speaking it isn't a country at all. I wouldn't mind if Pakistan were split up in various theme parks for future tourist generations: backward moutain tribes, Fascist military zones, zones with poor peasants, dirt-poor peasants, nearly dead peasants, and of course corrupt, filthy rich misfits.

    Yes, I'm overstating my case. This happens to me once every while.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  3. #3
    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    9,029

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    What comes next? It will be dealt with when it comes. For now we should be happy this guy is gone.
    Rest in Peace TosaInu, the Org will be your legacy
    Quote Originally Posted by Leon Blum - For All Mankind
    Nothing established by violence and maintained by force, nothing that degrades humanity and is based on contempt for human personality, can endure.

  4. #4
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,690
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    I'm hesitant to lambast the man until I see what horror takes his place.

    Pakistan is another mess that I fail to see why the West has must more than perfunctary dealings with. They are an unreliable ally, share few common values with us, and are a black hole for funds should they be provided.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  5. #5
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    10,415

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    I'm hesitant to lambast the man until I see what horror takes his place.

    Pakistan is another mess that I fail to see why the West has must more than perfunctary dealings with. They are an unreliable ally, share few common values with us, and are a black hole for funds should they be provided.

    Were it not for their nukes, and tribalists harboring/producing terrorists and Taliban, I'd prefer exactly that: "...(not) much more than perfunctary dealings with...".

    AdrianII's Disney-run "Anthro-Park" = rofl. :)
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  6. #6
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,690
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    The nukes are thankfully short range, and so firmly the problem of India which IMO can deal with it.

    Aid to help Pakistan against the tribal areas not only wastes money, but also gets the leaders branded a puppet of the West - exacerbating the problem.

    Invading is not an option, supporting seems increasingly not to be a viable option, so I feel that investing the time and money at home or in league with India is the right direction.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  7. #7
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Hunting the Snark, a long way from Tipperary...
    Posts
    5,604

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    The nukes are thankfully short range, and so firmly the problem of India which IMO can deal with it.
    Unless of course, they decide that their friends the Iranians would like a couple for their bigger missiles.

    Or someone decides that Uncle Imran in Bradford could do with a new firework for his Nutball's Convention.




    Kukri, I think you have it right - ignoring Pakistan is not an option.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

  8. #8
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    5,812

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Seeing as how the coalition parties aren't any better (one is manifestly corrupt, the other islamist) I don't feel at all happy that Musharaff is gone. The chances that a stable regime will follow, let alone a functioning democray seem pretty bleak.

  9. #9
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,690
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    There is a difference between ignoring a country and not actively supporting it.

    What action would prevent Pakistan giving nukes to Iran? What action prevents then giving one to terrorists?

    Beefing up overseas inteligence agencies is a far better use of money than either trying to force Pakistan to not do that, be it by bribes or threats.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  10. #10
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Hunting the Snark, a long way from Tipperary...
    Posts
    5,604

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    What action would prevent Pakistan giving nukes to Iran? What action prevents then giving one to terrorists?
    Helping encourage a democratic, secular government accountable to the people.

    While we are doing that, bribes and threats.

    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

  11. #11
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    What action prevents then giving one to terrorists?
    This argument:
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  12. #12
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Hunting the Snark, a long way from Tipperary...
    Posts
    5,604

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    This argument:
    That argument is sadly, the most feeble.

    Any such response would be too late, the supply chain almost untraceable (do we nuke Russia and North Korea too, just to cover all the options?) and worst of all - an outcome actually desired by the kind of nutballs that count martyrdom as a career choice.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

  13. #13
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    That argument is sadly, the most feeble.
    I wouldn't exactly call it feeble, it is the most convincing argument in the history of mankind. It has so far ensured that there are no 'untraceable' supply chains through which terrorists would acquire nuclear weapons. It has ensured world peace since 1948 by virtually killing all grand designs on the part of the major powers. It has ensured that Pakistan and India enjoy a relatively good relationship for the first time since their births as nations. It's a proper little miracle worker, that nuclear thingamy.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  14. #14
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Hunting the Snark, a long way from Tipperary...
    Posts
    5,604

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    I wouldn't exactly call it feeble, it is the most convincing argument in the history of mankind. It has so far ensured that there are no 'untraceable' supply chains through which terrorists would acquire nuclear weapons. It has ensured world peace since 1948 by virtually killing all grand designs on the part of the major powers. It has ensured that Pakistan and India enjoy a relatively good relationship for the first time since their births as nations. It's a proper little miracle worker, that nuclear thingamy.
    For normal people that love their children, I agree.

    For the kind of loonies that fly planes into towers full of innocents, I very much doubt it.

    And my point (to rory rather than you) is that if we ignore Pakistan, it is those who who favour such loonies who may supply the weapons they crave. Pakistan is the one country where this might feasibly happen, is all I am saying.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

  15. #15
    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    The wilderness...
    Posts
    9,215

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    I don't think this is a paticularly good thing, he wasn't the greatest president ever but i think he's better than the alternatives...
    In remembrance of our great Admin Tosa Inu, A tireless worker with the patience of a saint. As long as I live I will not forget you. Thank you for everything!

  16. #16
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    For normal people that love their children, I agree.

    For the kind of loonies that fly planes into towers full of innocents, I very much doubt it.
    The first category keep the second in check because they fear the consequences if the second category have their way.

    That's what I'm saying all the time on this forum. Any secret service today is closely watching both its nuclear establishment and its more choleric citizens or visitors to make sure the transfer of sensitive material and/or knowledge from one to the other never happens.

    Of course this check isn't foolproof. But then what is?
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  17. #17
    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Chuck Norris' hand is the only hand that can beat a Royal Flush.
    Posts
    3,740

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Quickly NATO, invade Waziristan while there is no President in power, kill all the Talibans and retreat before the elections take place!
    BLARGH!

  18. #18
    Incorruptible Forest Manager Member Tristuskhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Oaks and Menhirs, Brittany
    Posts
    808

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Quote Originally Posted by Jolt View Post
    Quickly NATO, invade Waziristan while there is no President in power, kill all the Talibans and retreat before the elections take place!

    ... and watch the new Talebanoïd party win because of the hate further spread in the population by this Infidel aggression. Wrong move....
    "Les Cons ça ose tout, c'est même à ça qu'on les reconnait"

    Kentoc'h Mervel Eget Bezañ Saotret - Death feels better than stain, motto of the Breton People. Emgann!

  19. #19
    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    15,677

    Post Re: Musharraf stands down

    Apart from Cricket and Football, it is readily apparent that they have some knowledge of nuclear bombs.
    A. Q. Khan

    So we could step back and let the country slip further down and then try and get capital by selling nuclear knowledge.

    BTW I think the Uranium isotope fingerprint of even a mildly dirty bomb would be traceable to the specific reactor pile it came from.
    Our genes maybe in the basement but it does not stop us chosing our point of view from the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat
    Pape for global overlord!!
    Quote Originally Posted by English assassin
    Squid sources report that scientists taste "sort of like chicken"
    Quote Originally Posted by frogbeastegg View Post
    The rest is either as average as advertised or, in the case of the missionary, disappointing.

  20. #20
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,690
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Even if the Uranium can be traced, easy solution: take what you want and get close to destination. Later rid raid on source - terrorist attack on reactor or whatever, nuclear material stolen!

    Later when the bomb goes off, what is the target going to do? Bomb and invade a country who'se only fault was to get attacked by terrorists?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  21. #21
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Even if the Uranium can be traced, easy solution: take what you want and get close to destination. Later rid raid on source - terrorist attack on reactor or whatever, nuclear material stolen!

    Later when the bomb goes off, what is the target going to do? Bomb and invade a country who'se only fault was to get attacked by terrorists?

    It's that easy, huh? And you never wonder why it hasn't happened in all those years?
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  22. #22
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,690
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    No, not easy - unless either the Pakistani army or intelligence services decided to do it. My point was that IF a very powerful organisation wishes to undertake the course of action it does allow for plausible deniability - quite useful if the alternative might be the USA turning large parts of the country into a vitrified dessert.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  23. #23
    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    in ur city killin ur militias
    Posts
    2,934

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    That argument is sadly, the most feeble.

    Any such response would be too late, the supply chain almost untraceable (do we nuke Russia and North Korea too, just to cover all the options?) and worst of all - an outcome actually desired by the kind of nutballs that count martyrdom as a career choice.
    I wouldn't call it the most feeble.

    If I read your intent properly (I hope), then I do agree that the actual usage of nukes in a combat or wartime scenario, or even at all, is generally unthinkable by anyone with a shred of common sense and realistic thought. I firmly believe that the next nation (or group) that uses or attempts to use nuclear weapons will be roundly vilified and denounced by the world at large, possibly by longstanding allies as well.

    (Aside - This is precisely the reason why I think China has/had a vested interest in keeping N. Korea on a rather tight leash. Sure they'll let them bark and generally make asses of themselves and whomever they're trying to play hardball with, but when the rubber hits the road, China does not want to give them any excuse that would possibly lead up to 1. a US lead war that would involve land invasion, a Korean War II if you will, or 2. an exchange of nuclear weapons due to it's proximity to China proper. Pakistan doesn't seem to be in a situation like that at all, however they do have India to contend with, and I think India has been doing a good job of checking their power.)

    However, it is still quite an effective deterrent IMO. Yeah, the ability to lob a nuke off at your opponents is a large ego boost for any nation that possesses them, however in terms of dealing with the US, or even Russia and China, one must realize that they MIGHT be able to get in one shot, somehow, maybe... but if they succeeded (or even didn't) then we all have the capability to turn whomsoever's little chunk of the world into a large radioactive glowing crater many, many, many times over. In other words, they might get in that one good sucker punch or two, but that's all they'll get and their demise totally guaranteed. I think this is one reason the US has been able to get away with as much BS as it has globally in the decades since WWII.


    "Justice is the firm and continuous desire to render to everyone
    that which is his due."
    - Justinian I

  24. #24
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Western New Yuck
    Posts
    7,914

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    No, not easy - unless either the Pakistani army or intelligence services decided to do it. My point was that IF a very powerful organisation wishes to undertake the course of action it does allow for plausible deniability - quite useful if the alternative might be the USA turning large parts of the country into a vitrified dessert.

    Yeah, and no one's had the cajones to test that theory yet. Apparently life is too sweet for those in power, and when they speak of matyrdom for the cause...they mean some other poor dumb s.o.b.
    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." *Jim Elliot*

  25. #25
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Moral High Grounds
    Posts
    9,286

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    The UN needs an escrow program where countries going through upheaval can put their nukes until they get sorted out.
    The .Org's MTW Reference Guide Wiki - now taking comments, corrections, suggestions, and submissions

    If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
    Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat

    "Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur

  26. #26
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Hunting the Snark, a long way from Tipperary...
    Posts
    5,604

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Quote Originally Posted by Whacker View Post
    I wouldn't call it the most feeble.

    If I read your intent properly (I hope), then I do agree that the actual usage of nukes in a combat or wartime scenario, or even at all, is generally unthinkable by anyone with a shred of common sense and realistic thought. I firmly believe that the next nation (or group) that uses or attempts to use nuclear weapons will be roundly vilified and denounced by the world at large, possibly by longstanding allies as well.
    My point was that deterrence only works against states that fear annihilation.

    Al-Qaeda is an stateless organisation proven to be uncaring of death - indeed, many of its operatives seek their own death and the immolation of "collaborators" as a holy mission. If they could explode a device in Washington, they wouldn't care a jot if the whole Middle East was then incinerated - they'd probably wish it as a curse on the less devoted.

    Pakistan has a significant part of its state apparatus (the security service ISI) highly sympathetic to al-Qaeda.

    It is therefore not inconcievable that nuclear materials through to actual warheads could be supplied to al-Qaeda by sympathisers.

    Threatening Pakistan with retaliation for such an act, when the government of that state has no effective control over those who may commit it, is pointless.

    Thus, it is a feeble countermeasure to rely on deterrence to prevent such a scenario.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I should add that Pakistan's nuclear warheads are not so easily smuggled, and I would be hard to convince that al-Qaeda had the wit to deploy them effectively - but the truth remains, in a world where we get our panties in a bunch over a state like Iran getting nukes (which is entirely susceptible to deterrence) Pakistan's high level Islamicist sympathisers remain the biggest danger for terrorists getting a bomb.
    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

  27. #27
    lurker Member JR-'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,338

    Default Re: Musharraf stands down

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    The UN needs an escrow program where countries going through upheaval can put their nukes until they get sorted out.
    agreed, but personally i would prefer pakistan didn't have nukes at all, they aren't grown-up enough to be allowed them.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO