The Midgard Saga II [Concluded]

[Craterus]

Ha!

What are the options?

a) wait until the Jotun kills me at night;
b) fight the Jotun with a high probability of dying during the attempt, but with a real chance of actually killing one of them. If a peasant was able to kill a King in Midgard I, then surely I must now be able to kill a Jotun.

Ok, I'll concede that. Go ahead, challenge away.

[LittleGrizzly]

I can see your points andres but i think the town would be better leaving it at a 50% chance of a Motep Vs GH fight, as quite a few people are suspicious of both so we will kill off a suspect and if both are telling the truth about thier roles, the lord, Motep will survive, but the chances off this are getting slimmer all the time...

[pevergreen]

Where did pever reveal? Privately?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=538

[Andres]

I can see your points andres but i think the town would be better leaving it at a 50% chance of a Motep Vs GH fight, as quite a few people are suspicious of both so we will kill off a suspect and if both are telling the truth about thier roles, the lord, Motep will survive, but the chances off this are getting slimmer all the time...

Nope, because a townie can kill a King. So if Motep fights, there's always a real chance of him getting killed.

Now, apparently, Motep did reveal his Champion and edited it out. A few people have seen the name of the champion (FH and PK? were there others?).

All we have to do is wait for the Champion to reveal and confirm Moteps' claim to those people.

It's early in the game and we still have plenty of time to lynch Motep if he turns out to be a fake.

For now, I want Motep to survive. If the Champion isn't online today, Motep will have to fight if his Holmgang gets picked by Sigurd.

It is very likely that we lynched a king already. By challenging, I narrow down the odds of Motep actually having to fight. Challenging GH is the obvious choice. If Motep's champion is online, he must inform Sigurd that he will take his place, just in case the GH vs Motep gets picked by Sigurd.

At this stage, with the incomplete evidence we have, we must at all costs avoid that Motep has to fight. Since I believe GH is scum, I strongly encourage those with stats of 6 or higher to challenge him.

Also, if there's a God able to protect, he should protect Motep. Better to protect someone who is most likely a King than some random guy.

[Kagemusha]

Nope, because a townie can kill a King. So if Motep fights, there's always a real chance of him getting killed.

Now, apparently, Motep did reveal his Champion and edited it out. A few people have seen the name of the champion (FH and PK? were there others?).

All we have to do is wait for the Champion to reveal and confirm Moteps' claim to those people.

It's early in the game and we still have plenty of time to lynch Motep if he turns out to be a fake.

For now, I want Motep to survive. If the Champion isn't online today, Motep will have to fight if his Holmgang gets picked by Sigurd.

It is very likely that we lynched a king already. By challenging, I narrow down the odds of Motep actually having to fight. Challenging GH is the obvious choice. If Motep's champion is online, he must inform Sigurd that he will take his place, just in case the GH vs Motep gets picked by Sigurd.

At this stage, with the incomplete evidence we have, we must at all costs avoid that Motep has to fight. Since I believe GH is scum, I strongly encourage those with stats of 6 or higher to challenge him.

Also, if there's a God able to protect, he should protect Motep. Better to protect someone who is most likely a King than some random guy.

Andres.There is no risk of Motep dying if he is indeed King and uses his champion.So please refrain from challenging anyone. To be honest, i find your frenzy to challenge bit suspicious.

[LittleGrizzly]

Okay i see your reasoning, and i guess even if they are both telling the truth GH could get lucky and kill Motep, for what its worth i do think GH is just a regular townie, i think a mafia would be suicidal to act like he's acting, i think if he was mafia he would be smarter than that...

Edit: Kage has a point as well, i forgot we were hoping his champion would take his place, wouldn't that just reveal Moteps champion as well though ?

Another power town role revealed in the thread can't be a good thing...

[Craterus]

What's the problem with Motep's reveal?

I heard that the lack of runes could well be a browser problem or, dare I say it, a slip-up from the host. I see no reason why Motep or his champion needs to die.

[pevergreen]

What's the problem with Motep's reveal?

I heard that the lack of runes could well be a browser problem or, dare I say it, a slip-up from the host. I see no reason why Motep or his champion needs to die.

It could be a slip-up but I checked my PM in IE7 and FF3, no runes.

[Andres]

Andres.There is no risk of Motep dying if he is indeed King and uses his champion.So please refrain from challenging anyone. To be honest, i find your frenzy to challenge bit suspicious.

If you would have read my post carefully, you would have noticed that I said that there's a chance of Motep's champion not being online in time and that I said that if he manages to be online, he should take Motep's place.

Several people have seen the name of the champion before Motep edited it out. We just have to wait for the Champion to pop up and counterclaim in public, or confirm Motep in private.

In the meanwhile, we must at all costs avoid Motep actually having to fight.

If the Champion is not online, than at the current stage, there's a 1/3 change of Motep having to fight.

I want the risk of losing Motep in the next Holmgang to be as small as possible.

[LittleGrizzly]

I think a few people had a problem with it because it came not long after tratorix's reveal, and it used alot of the same wording, in fairness Motep made it not long after tratorix's reveal because someone said to vote motep to save tratorix the king, and it looked similair because it was the same role as tratorix's, it could have been a daring attempt to save his skin, for what its worth im thinking its genuine...

[Kagemusha]

What's the problem with Motep's reveal?

I heard that the lack of runes could well be a browser problem or, dare I say it, a slip-up from the host. I see no reason why Motep or his champion needs to die.

My friend are you following this game at all?Motep revealed after Tratorix, with almost identical pm, wqhich could have been easily forged. Why do you want to take his word as gospel, when we can easily find out for sure?

[Warmaster Horus]

It's a near copy of Tratorix' PM, and it apparently doesn't have a rune pic on top.

Then there's the story about the font, but I don't know what to make of it.

Edit: 3 posts at once... my god is this game getting hectic.

[Andres]

My friend are you following this game at all?Motep revealed after Tratorix, with almost identical pm, wqhich could have been easily forged. Why do you want to take his word as gospel, when we can easily find out for sure?

And I don't agree with the way you want to try to find out for sure, that's all.

Your way provides a risk of losing the King. I want to reduce that risk to the minimum.

[Kagemusha]

If you would have read my post carefully, you would have noticed that I said that there's a chance of Motep's champion not being online in time and that I said that if he manages to be online, he should take Motep's place.

Several people have seen the name of the champion before Motep edited it out. We just have to wait for the Champion to pop up and counterclaim in public, or confirm Motep in private.

In the meanwhile, we must at all costs avoid Motep actually having to fight.

If the Champion is not online, than at the current stage, there's a 1/3 change of Motep having to fight.

I want the risk of losing Motep in the next Holmgang to be as small as possible.

Well if his champion wont be online in about 24 hours in a such hectic game, we deserve to loose him. I cant understand why we should shoot at random directions, when we actually have suspicious players to go after. You do understand that lack of reveal of Moteps champion might as well mean that actually he doesnt have a champion and has been lying to us?
EDIT: Your way also offers a clear way for mafia to outmanouver the town.

[Craterus]

I don't find it so hard to believe that the host would use similar PMs for similar roles.

Ah well, if it takes his champion revealing publicly to quench this bloodlust then there's little I can do.

[LittleGrizzly]

With you way though Andres, how long do we wait on a silent champion before we decide Motep is lieing ?

[Andres]

Well if his champion wont be online in about 24 hours in a such hectic game, we deserve to loose him. I cant understand why we should shoot at random directions, when we actually have suspicious players to go after. You do understand that lack of reveal of Moteps champion might as well mean that actually he doesnt have a champion and has been lying to us?
EDIT: Your way also offers a clear way for mafia to outmanouver the town.

The thing is, if his champion won't be online, we risk losing Motep, not the lazy champion.

Oh, and I didn't challenge GH at random. If he survives the Holmgang and unless better evidence pops up, I will insist on lynching him, because I believe he's scum. Surely, you read my case against him, so I don't like how you call me challenging GH "shooting at random directions."

[Kagemusha]

I don't find it so hard to believe that the host would use similar PMs for similar roles.

Ah well, if it takes his champion revealing publicly to quench this bloodlust then there's little I can do.

Except for Kings, the rest of us are similarly expendable in this game unless being Gods, so in the end if Jotuns kill the champion of a King next,which i doubt, since i dont think Motep even has a champion, it is better then them killing a God or another King by luck.

[Craterus]

Well, I'll just say that the champion in question is probably the least likely player to show up and post so... it'll be interesting to see where your analysis turns next. 3rd consecutive powertown lynching, wow...just wow.

It's as if the town is hellbent on self-destruction.

[Kagemusha]

Well, I'll just say that the champion in question is probably the least likely player to show up and post so... it'll be interesting to see where your analysis turns next. 3rd consecutive powertown lynching, wow...just wow.

It's as if the town is hellbent on self-destruction.

Oh my goodnes.If there is a champion so dump that he would prefer hiding, over putting his master in life danger, then again we deserve to loose another king.

[pevergreen]

We dont deserve to lose a king, we need to make people understand turning up once a day is kind of needed.

[FactionHeir]

His "champion" was online. And anyone still throwing more challenges into the ring is just trying to save their Jotun buddy.

I still find Motep's reveal suspicious, but right now I think GH is the best lynch/holmgang choice and agree that Motep's "champion" should be fighting GH if it comes to their match.

Even if it doesn't, I think next turn we should continue to pit these two against each other and refrain from any other challenges.

[TinCow]

There's nothing that can be done about the challenges now, as they cannot be retracted. However, I DO think that the proper move if Motep is selected is for his Champion to take his place. I have seen a Champion PM and they are NOT "power town" roles in the usual sense. A Champion exists only to protect his Lord and other than that he appears to be just a townie with a bigger Holmgang score. Losing a Champion is not a major blow to the town, but losing a Lord most certainly is. Given that having a Champion substitute for him would prove conclusively that Motep is innocent, I think this should be done if the situation pops up.

Keep in mind that the Jotun already know whatever the truth is about Motep. If Motep is Jotun, the situation is obvious. If Motep is not Jotun, then his PM must be legit because he would not otherwise have posted it (unless he's perhaps swapped with his Champion.) Therefore, if Motep is telling the truth, the Jotun already know that he is a Lord and confirming that he is a Lord by having his Champion protect him will give the Jotun no more info whatsoever, but it will solve a major problem for the town, which is currently going nuts.

The best possible Holmgang outcome IMO is that GH fights Motep, Motep's Champion takes his place, and GH dies.

[Husar]

Didn't someone mention who Motep named as a champion or did I get that info from the chat?
Anyway, if it comes to a fight, the champion should fight, that way we would know for sure that Motep is a king.
And in general, people, when a champion takes over for his king/lord, wouldn't that king/lord be pretty much revealed anyway because some other guy is fighting where he should fight? Unless of course the enemy was involved in more than one Holmgang challenge, but even then the writeup may mention that player x was replaced by champion y.

@ Husar: You suspect due to the fact I'm analysing stuff, give me an example of a mafia game I've played where I haven't acted like this... Or if you want to prove yourself the bigger man I'll meet you on the battlefield (and rip your heart from your unfortunate body...).

Exactly, you always act like this, probably even when you're guilty, that makes you very suspicious.
That thing about the heart and unfortunate body makes you sound like a Jotun as well.

[LittleGrizzly]

Didn't someone mention who Motep named as a champion or did I get that info from the chat?

It isn't mentioned in the thread anywhere, so has the champion been online since Motep mentioned him ? and has he confirmed or denied Moteps identity to anyone ?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Andres:

As Runyon said, "the race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong -- but that is the way to bet."

Yes, a "2" can get lucky with Sigurd's system and take down a "6" or even a "7," so we cannot ascribe a perfect detective value to the results of a holmgang. However, the system DOES result it a power-fighter winning a great majority of the time. Such information should not be ignored either.

You seem a touch quick to dismiss it.

[TinCow]

And in general, people, when a champion takes over for his king/lord, wouldn't that king/lord be pretty much revealed anyway because some other guy is fighting where he should fight? Unless of course the enemy was involved in more than one Holmgang challenge, but even then the writeup may mention that player x was replaced by champion y.

Very true, which is why the question of whether to have a Champion fight for his Lord is a very serious one when no one knows what the Lord's role is. However, Motep is already claiming to be a Lord, and if he's telling the truth then his cover is already blown. So, there's no damage to Motep in particular from having the Champion fight, and it might save his skin if GH is Jotun or just absurdly lucky. This is definitely an unusual situation though, and the general policy you note should receive heavy consideration in most other cases.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Andres, just stop talking.

Since I believe GH is scum, I strongly encourage those with stats of 6 or higher to challenge him.

You do realize that, if the town follows this strategy, then whoever challenges me will essentially put themselves on the Jotun's hit list to be whacked at night, right? Right? I think you want everybody with high stats to be drawn out.

Think about it. Andres "believes" I'm Jotun, using his high stats to take me down in Holmgang and discredit me at the same time. The bad guys are sitting pretty, plus they have a shiny new list of high-stat targets to work with for the next few nights.

Lynch Andres next round.

[Privateerkev]

Don't you guys realize that Motep's Champion probably can not take his place?

Motep "challenged" GH. From what I understand, from reading Midgard 1, is that the Champion only takes the Lord's place if the Lord is challeged.

If GH challenged Motep, then the Champion could take Motep's place.

So all we have done, if I am right, is put yet another King at risk.

[Andres]

Don't you guys realize that Motep's Champion probably can not take his place?

Motep "challenged" GH. From what I understand, from reading Midgard 1, is that the Champion only takes the Lord's place if the Lord is challeged.

If GH challenged Motep, then the Champion could take Motep's place.

So all we have done, if I am right, is put yet another King at risk.

Hence the need for more challenges, to narrow down the odds that Motep has to fight.

Andres, just stop talking.

You do realize that, if the town follows this strategy, then whoever challenges me will essentially put themselves on the Jotun's hit list to be whacked at night, right? Right? I think you want everybody with high stats to be drawn out.

Think about it. Andres "believes" I'm Jotun, using his high stats to take me down in Holmgang and discredit me at the same time. The bad guys are sitting pretty, plus they have a shiny new list of high-stat targets to work with for the next few nights.

Lynch Andres next round.

Attack is the best defense, eh?