Siege machines

[Tancredo]

Hi. After a couple of years I've come back to MTW VI and ben looking again for tips about strategy and tactics. I've found pretty much everything I knew once, but still I don't find how to place siege machines at battle.
Please, share your wisdom.

[Martok]

Welcome to the Org, Tancredo.


First off, I strongly encourage you to read this post by frogbeastegg if you've not already done so -- the section on artillery is near the bottom.

Otherwise, the main piece of advice I can offer is to remember that when employing siege weapons against larger fortifications (especially Citadels & Fortresses), you should generally try to place them close enough so that they can take down the castle's inner wall(s) in addition to its outer wall. While this probably will expose your artillery crews to enemy missile fire, it's usually a worthwhile trade-off as otherwise your main assault troops will be stuck trying to break through the inner gates/walls with no artillery support (which is nearly always very costly). Better to lose a few artillery experts than a few hundred medium/heavy infantry!

Unfortunately, I can't say exactly how close/far away you should be (especially since it depends on which siege weapons you're using and how many walls a castle has). I invariably wind up just going by trial and error more often than not.

[m52nickerson]

Since I only use them for Castle sieges I place them as far away from the Castle as possible. I see no need for them to take return fire. Before the battle you can place one and then mouse over your target and see if it is in range. Then just keep moving it back until you are happy.

[I of the Storm]

Concerning return fire: I found it most useful to deploy 2-4 archer squads in loose formation in front of the artillery to function as arrow sponges. The towers almost always target the closest units, the exception being if your general is within their range (here seems to be a hidden target priority list somewhere). This way you'll only loose quite a few cheap archers. Remember to advance them with your assault troops until you reach the breaches. Saves some casualties among the heavy inf.

[seireikhaan]

Concerning return fire: I found it most useful to deploy 2-4 archer squads in loose formation in front of the artillery to function as arrow sponges. The towers almost always target the closest units, the exception being if your general is within their range (here seems to be a hidden target priority list somewhere). This way you'll only loose quite a few cheap archers. Remember to advance them with your assault troops until you reach the breaches. Saves some casualties among the heavy inf.

Na, don't use archers. Most archers will frankly die way to quick for my tastes to be meat shields. Vanilla spearmen, especially with a little extra armor, are the way to go for this role. Relatively cheap unit, you get 100 in comparison to 60, and the addition of their shield means that the towers won't mow through archers before your siege machines are done with their work.

[Ironsword]

- Also, whatever you do, don't take trebuchets, mangonels or seige cannons to a field battle, unless you're absolutely sure they will be facing the right way! Yes, they look real pretty, but the amount of times I've fielded them out of desperation only to have them at right angles to the enemy...

Catapults, demi culverinns etc. are a lot more forgiving.

[Martok]

Good point, Ironsword. With the exception of Organ guns on bridge battles and the occasional catapult, I pretty much never use artillery in field battles.

Of course, part of my reluctance to use siege weapons in defensive battles also has to do with artillery crews' almost-supernatural ability to hit enemy generals. As much fun as it is to kill an AI commander with a big ol' rock to the head, I find it a little too easy overall (and therefore consider it an exploit).

[m52nickerson]

Good point, Ironsword. With the exception of Organ guns on bridge battles and the occasional catapult, I pretty much never use artillery in field battles.

Of course, part of my reluctance to use siege weapons in defensive battles also has to do with artillery crews' almost-supernatural ability to hit enemy generals. As much fun as it is to kill an AI commander with a big ol' rock to the head, I find it a little too easy overall (and therefore consider it an exploit).

.....but picking off that Jedi general who is alone hold up in his fortress gives you that warm fuzzy feeling inside.

[Knight of the Rose]

Siege isn't too bad in field battles.

When defending, I find the AI will try to avoid being in harms way when approaching your position, and with the superior range of siege machines, I've managed a couple of times to force the AI to enter my hill at a steeper point than normal.

They generally kill to few though, to be worth the while.

/KotR

[Roark]

Pre-Gunpowder: Sieges only. The only engines you really need in order to be effective are catapults and Mangonels. I usually hire Mangonel mercs, as the build requirements are pretty huge. These are for big walls (like Constantinople). Catapults are easily available and, more importantly, they can swivel. In sufficient numbers, these should be able to smash anything smaller than a Citadel enough for your boys to get in through a couple of different points/holes.

Gunpowder: On defence, serpentines and organ guns can be absolutely devastating in numbers, but keep in mind that, for every siege engine you include, that's one less unit of actual fighting troops to hold off the foe. Also, with Organ Guns, it is critical that you place them in a precise strategic defence point, as the range and reload are pathetic. A hill is essential, to allay cavalry charges, and you need to pack some flanking spears/polearms close by to defend your gun crews if necessary. Having said all that, I've seen a pair of organ guns vaporise an entire unit of Lancers in one round of shooting.

For sieges, anything except bombards and mortars will do the job well for any size of fortress.

For offence, ummm... you can pretty much forget about siege engines overall. Even if you guess the enemy's starting position correctly, he will almost always move to a better defensive position on Hard or Expert. Don't bother.

[Roark]

One last thing:

REAL MEN DON'T USE SIEGE CANNONS!! :-P

Seriously, these things are way broken and unbalanced. Don't take 'em, unless you're the kind of dude who spams Janissaries and Huscarles.

[Martok]

Seriously, these things are way broken and unbalanced. Don't take 'em, unless you're the kind of dude who spams Janissaries and Huscarles.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with churning out a bunch of Huscarles! (Although my royal treasurer usually goes apoplectic when I do so. ) If I want to take over the world with thousands of Nordic supermen and propagating their way of life, then -- hold on, that sounded better in my head than it did out loud....


Kidding aside, though, I rarely use cannons either, if only because of my distaste for gunpowder weapons. About the only time I employ them in anything resembling significant numbers is against Citadels & Fortresses, which of course the AI almost never builds.

[bondovic]

One last thing:

REAL MEN DON'T USE SIEGE CANNONS!! :-P

Seriously, these things are way broken and unbalanced. Don't take 'em, unless you're the kind of dude who spams Janissaries and Huscarles.

Who was it that said it so eloquently but a few weeks ago? That the game doesn't overrate units, it simply gives the player the edge at a (sometimes drastically) disproportionate cost. By the time you're spamming these guys, the game is won anyhow. Might as well at that point...

[drone]

Seriously, these things are way broken and unbalanced. Don't take 'em, unless you're the kind of dude who spams Janissaries and Huscarles.

You have to spam Huscarles, you only have a short period of time to build them, and they have to last for a long time!

[Roark]

I just want to clarify that I meant the specific unit called "Siege Cannons", by the way guys.

Those things are unbelievable!! They reduce the siege of Constantinople to a jaunt lasting 15 minutes. Bah!

I use demi-culvs and other guns all the time.

Insofar as Huscarles are concerned, yeah... I've been guilty in the past of pumping them out because I was conscious of the ticking clock and the advent of the High Era, but I never play Early any more, so I only use them in Viking Era, where it's almost impossible to spam them on the same scale anyway.

[Ironsword]

^^ What's everyones preference when it comes to siege? culverin or serpentine? Mortar or Bombard? Good old fashioned catapult or that AI favourite, 6 x ballista?

[I of the Storm]

Well, I don't get to play much with gunpowder units, so it's catapult for me. Although sometimes when I feel mean and did not take my medicine I use nothing but UMs to storm that castle. Oh the carnage...

[Martok]

Catapults for smaller castles, and trebuchets & mangonels for the larger ones.

[Roark]

^^ What's everyones preference when it comes to siege? culverin or serpentine? Mortar or Bombard? Good old fashioned catapult or that AI favourite, 6 x ballista?

I hate Mortars and Bombards with equal measure. I find ballistas mostly useless (taking up a whole unit slot, for one hit/one kill each round), but if I have a high-command general, I VERY occasionally use them as snipers against attacking armies.

Serpentines aren't very destructive against big walls, but they are extremely accurate and therefore good against massed units of attacking troops.

For non-gunpowder, I use catapults, and add Mangonels x2 for big castles when I can hire them as mercs.

[Kamakazi]

My advice is to keep your trebuchets etc back a lil and use them to take out the inner gates etc since they have a longer range... put your less ranged units closeenough to take the outer gates or walls but far enough no to get hit too much.....

i find it a good technique to split them up and take out the outer walls in 2 areas and to pincer inside defenders so u could try that also

[Lokiss]

^^ What's everyones preference when it comes to siege? culverin or serpentine? Mortar or Bombard? Good old fashioned catapult or that AI favourite, 6 x ballista?

Culverin, don't use either but I suppose mortar, and 6 x Ballista because it's a lot more accurate than a Catapult and when I'm done opening up a hole in the wall I can spam some bolts right into their lines and seriously mess their morale up.

Catapults are just so clunky and inaccurate it makes me scream, and taking down towers with them? Forget about it.