I Stand Converted

[Misfratz]

I had a game very early on with the Vikings in Early, against the six units of Vikings in Norway. I used a good number of archer units and managed to whittle away at the enemy Vikings so that I could weaken them before finishing them off.

It went so well.

Then I became cocky and sloppy.

The Norwegians final unit - their general - managed to bring a charge home against my archers, and I'd been slow to reorganise my Vikings in support. Although I outnumbered the enemy by at least eight-to-one at this stage my army routed and fled the field!

I've always had a great respect for missile troops since using them so effectively in defensive battles against the Hojo in Shogun, but they do require more care and attention to use and you do get punished if you let it slip. Plus I've always found it much harder to use them when attacking, but that's to be expected.

[Lokiss]

Aye, my main problem is that I had so little faith in their ability to know when to back off, but the mounted ones have proved rather okay at it.

[Martok]

I've always valued missile units to some degree, going back to Samurai Archers in Shogun. How I use them, though, depends on the situation.

It took me a long time (too long!) to realize it, but I eventually learned that I generally prefer to eschew foot missiles while on the attack -- the exceptions of course being when the enemy has no (or almost no) missile units themselves, and/or my missile units outrange the defenders'. Maybe it's just because I'm not that great a general (see the other thread ), but I find it nearly impossible to position/maneuver foot missiles to do any real damage while on offense. It's a very rare offensive battle indeed where my archers/arbs/whatever manage to actually make a significant contribution....at least a positive one.

On the other hand, missile cavalry is excellent for attacking. They can be very effective at drawing a defender away from a strong position (especially important in bridge & mountain battles!), and of course excel at harassing the enemy in most situations. In addition, missile cav such as Jinnettes or (especially) Mounted Crossbowmen can be very good at taking down generals from a distance -- which is naturally far preferable to sacrificing 300-500 of your infantry/spearmen to the enemy's 8-star Jedi with the "Great Warrior" trait.

Still, my favorite use for missiles -- and foot missile units in particular -- has always been in defensive battles. There's nothing quite like flinging a flight of several hundred arrows/javelins/bolts into the advancing enemy to say "hello" (gotta give them a proper greeting, after all).

[Roark]

Ditto what Martok said.

On the defence, nothing beats a constant blanket of deadly shafts to deplete assaulting forces.

Against the Mongols it's essential, unless you prefer to hide in the forest for two hours like a big girl's blouse.

[Knight of the Rose]

RE: Foot archers on offence. I absolutly agree when it comes to vanilla archers, and to an extend vanilla crossbows. They can be used to lure the enemy into ambushes (approaching a formation and rout when they take the bait. Only then the spearmen in the forest come out to play) or as cannon fodder (standing in loose formation, pretending to do an archery duel, but in reality emptying the enemy's quivers and nothing more). But to be fair - woodsmen could do that job too.

But Arbalasters! These wonder-guys are absolutely essensial when doing offensive maneuvers! Their range is often great enough to push the enemy off the hill and force them to charge you. Just use two, or sometimes one is enough, and watch as the enemy commander charges your formation knowing it's the only alternative to stand and die.

I've lost countless offensive battles charging up a hill, but won most where I could meet the enemy in the valley.

/KotR

PS - on the original poster: Rock - Paper - Scissors

[Lokiss]

PS - on the original poster: Rock - Paper - Scissors

Hm?

But Arbalasters! These wonder-guys are absolutely essensial when doing offensive maneuvers!

No doubt.

[caravel]

PS - on the original poster: Rock - Paper - Scissors

Hm?

Spears beats cavalry beats swords beats spears.

"Spears" refers to units such as Spearmen, Feudal Sergeants, Saracen Infantry etc.
"Cavalry" is anything mounted, including camel mounted units.
"Swords" includes swordsmen, axes and polearms.

This is the general rule as to how melee works in STW/MTW.

It is only a general rule and has some exceptions. For example despite being classified as "swords", polearms also beat cavalry, though they are still more vulnerable to cavalry charges than spear units. Vanilla Horse Archers may be cut to pieces by even Trebizond Archers. Also upgrades and valour can totally unbalance the "RPS" system with well upgraded high valour spearmen defeating swordsmen for example.

[Innocentius]

RE: Foot archers on offence. I absolutly agree when it comes to vanilla archers, and to an extend vanilla crossbows. They can be used to lure the enemy into ambushes (approaching a formation and rout when they take the bait. Only then the spearmen in the forest come out to play) or as cannon fodder (standing in loose formation, pretending to do an archery duel, but in reality emptying the enemy's quivers and nothing more). But to be fair - woodsmen could do that job too.

I for one have come to appreciate the use of archers on the offense. Their ability to fire over the heads of a wall of spearmen makes them really useful even on the offensive, even if managing two fairly long lines who are dependant on each other on the march can be troublesome in hilly terrain: you have to make sure your spear units have favourable ground while your archers are entirely protected - yet they also need a clear field of fire and mustnt become intermingled with the spearmen in front of them. Needless to say, this tactic works even better with longbowmen.

This allows you to maintain a steady line of battle that, while protected by the spearmen - who themselves can inflict great casualties upon the enemy in melee given that they have the right upgrades, valour etc - provides a constant rain of arrows to whittle the enemy forces. Having this stable line of fire established, your flanking units should be able to do the real work without much resistance.

But Arbalasters! These wonder-guys are absolutely essensial when doing offensive maneuvers! Their range is often great enough to push the enemy off the hill and force them to charge you. Just use two, or sometimes one is enough, and watch as the enemy commander charges your formation knowing it's the only alternative to stand and die.

Very true, although I usually bring a total of five or six units with an equal amount of polearms right behind them. Not sure if this is actually preferable to a lesser amount of arbs or not though... Probably not: offensive battles have nasty tendency to become sluggish, so generally more infantry would be of greater use.

[Knight of the Rose]

I for one have come to appreciate the use of archers on the offense. Their ability to fire over the heads of a wall of spearmen makes them really useful even on the offensive, even if managing two fairly long lines who are dependant on each other on the march can be troublesome in hilly terrain: you have to make sure your spear units have favourable ground while your archers are entirely protected - yet they also need a clear field of fire and mustnt become intermingled with the spearmen in front of them. Needless to say, this tactic works even better with longbowmen.

But if you're firing over the heads of your spears, then the enemy archers, mostly on a hill, would have been shooting your line to bits before you could possibly have placed your archers within range! The AI is fairly competent at relocating, though sometimes you can move your entire army to a good angle of approach - but in my experience you can't always count on it. And once the melee has begun, the numbers of suitable targets goes down. Usually limits it to archers, I'd say, and they are a minor priority when the lines are slugging it out.

Longbowmen have longer range, and make them almost as good as arbalasters.

/KotR