I Stand Converted

**Lokiss** · 08-25-2008, 00:25

If memory serves, the victory of the English at Agincourt was due to the French heavy calvary (of which they brought toooons) getting stuck in the wet mud. I think they tested it and determined a longbow couldn't punch through the armor the French were wearing.

Hand to God.

**Ironsword** · 08-25-2008, 01:25

^^I didn't know that!

But if memory serves me also, the nimbler, less armoured bowmen were able to put blades through the visors of the 'stuck' french knights, thus making good use of their support costs!

**Innocentius** · 08-25-2008, 15:39

The debate on whether longbow arrows could actually pierce plate armour is an old, and stil ongoing, debate which I won't go any deeper into other than saying that nothing has yet been concluded. The few tests actually made are suggestive and often poorly executed. Also, one must consider that not all the French knights were wearing armour of the same quality and thickness, and far from all of them could afford full plate armour in the first place. Moreover, many of the French casualties would have been squires and retainers, who would've carried even poorer armour than their masters. And then there's the factor of unarmoured vs. armoured horses, the above mentioned mud and the crowded situation on the battlefield: quite a few knights must have died from dehydration or from being trampled by their own.

There's of course no single explanation for any single military victory (or random historic event), but there's also no need for me to drag this thread further off topic, so I'll let it rest at that.

**Mooks** · 08-26-2008, 03:26

I cant imagine fighting a battle without a few archer units. I usually get 5-6 units of archers in every stack.

**Lokiss** · 08-27-2008, 00:32

Wow, really? That's quite a lot.

**ChaosLord** · 08-27-2008, 03:02

For a while when I first started playing MTW I kept my archers only in defensive armies, but gradually as I was forced to use said armies in desperate measures I switched to keeping archers in all my armies. I really love those hybrid units the AI has such trouble using, like Bulgarian Brigands and the like. I keep 4-6 units in my armies now, and while they don't often claim alot of kills they do provide fear as well as "free hits" against an enemy army. Archers make any defensive action easier and are useful for denying an enemy defender the advantage of a position. Plus in the case of hybrid units, they can be great to roll around the flanks of an enemy to attack once their ammunition is depleted.

**drone** · 08-27-2008, 16:34

I use archers in defense, and in attack when the enemy is lacking missiles. Otherwise, I can't be bothered dealing with missile duels, they are just too wasteful and I'm just not good enough to micro mine effectively. It's so much easier to just rush the lines and send cavalry around to crush or disrupt the enemy's weak archer units. This also puts the cav is a good position to charge the rears of anything that withstands the main assault. Each enemy archer unit is just one less infantry block to deal with.

I will use archers against javelin units though, they are just too nasty (but fortunately short ranged) to leave alone.

If attacking an enemy that lacks missiles, then I try to let my archers expend all their ammo before starting the melee. Not only will this save my infantry and cav, but it also valors up my archers for better accuracy later on. High valor missile troops can be handy when 1230 rolls around.

**Mooks** · 09-04-2008, 00:23

Originally Posted by Lokiss

Wow, really? That's quite a lot.

Ya, when im attacking and can effectively destroy the enemy's archers with my archers, it forces him to attack me. Changing from a attack to a defense.

On defense they can rake a enemy force before they even touch me! And they rarely take casualties. Having archer-infantry combos help alot.

**bondovic** · 08-30-2008, 22:43

Originally Posted by Lokiss

If memory serves, the victory of the English at Agincourt was due to the French heavy calvary (of which they brought toooons) getting stuck in the wet mud. I think they tested it and determined a longbow couldn't punch through the armor the French were wearing.

Hand to God.

I read a paper by a physicist who'd done some calculating on this same matter. In it he mentioned a test where it was confirmed that the arrowheads in fact could penetrate the 1mm plate at about 200 metres but not the thicker type of breast plate. He also included some statistical reasoning, giving about every 100th arrow a kill. Can't remember if he included disabled horses in that figure. I think so.

The fact that the horses got stuck in the mud actually only served to prolong each wave's exposure to arrowfire, causing routes before they could reach the english line. Was it something like 15 charges made over the course of the whole day? Imagine that... "But it's MUDDY, Sir!"

**Lokiss** · 09-01-2008, 02:34

The fact that the horses got stuck in the mud actually only served to prolong each wave's exposure to arrowfire, causing routes before they could reach the english line. Was it something like 15 charges made over the course of the whole day? Imagine that... "But it's MUDDY, Sir!"

I saw a computer simulation of the battle with regards to the mud and they showed the horses falling into each other like dominos, because there was so many, and leaving the knights incredibly exposed and stuck. *shrug*

**Emperor Mithdrates** · 09-03-2008, 17:30

I hate archers.
They are cowards.
They run away when the enemy chargers them, so i always put them on stand ground and hold position. I never try to use them except as garrisons cause they can fire over the wall while enemy troops are trying to break it down. I love just using regular infantry in my battles and my armies are usually only made of them. I just like to lead a single huge charge and kill the enemy.

**Knight of the Rose** · 09-04-2008, 07:47

Originally Posted by Lord Young

I hate archers.
They are cowards.
They run away when the enemy chargers them, so i always put them on stand ground and hold position. I never try to use them except as garrisons cause they can fire over the wall while enemy troops are trying to break it down. I love just using regular infantry in my battles and my armies are usually only made of them. I just like to lead a single huge charge and kill the enemy.

This is actually a surprisingly effective way to lead a battle, it just requires two things.

1) Your regular infantry can match the enemy's after being hit by archers and fighting on disadvanteous ground.

2) You can flank them with superior melee numbers - I find that when defending the AI doesn't try to hard to flank you.

So better troops and higher numbers will support this strategy.

But wait! Then you are already winning!

If you are not already winning, then you need archers, and you need cavalry even more...

/KotR