How good can you make your kingdom in 22 turns?

**gardibolt** · 09-12-2008, 22:59

Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy

I can field that one.

The objective of the large army is because if you're going to fairly compare a turtle empire with a blitzer one militarily, you have to assume that by turn 22 I am going to be knocking down your gates with about 5 stacks of troops, and as soon as those are gone there will be a second, larger wave, and so on.

....

That is why for me to be impressed with any turtle empire, they must bloat a massive force within about 20 turns.

Frankly I'd give you 30. Show me whatcha got. And don't forget to make note of how many spies, assassins, naval forces you've made, and also what your total economic output is.

Still, even by this, how do you measure it? Is 10 units of levy spearmen better than 3 units of knights?

**FactionHeir** · 09-12-2008, 23:08

Try it in a custom battle

I think the knights (if dismounted) will tear through those spearmen though. If mounted, they would anyway unless you play modded

**gardibolt** · 09-15-2008, 19:20

Originally Posted by FactionHeir

Try it in a custom battle

I think the knights (if dismounted) will tear through those spearmen though. If mounted, they would anyway unless you play modded

That's kind of my point. 10 Levy spearmen units is obviously more units and more men than three units of knights. But their numbers pretty clearly don't make them "better."

**Kadagar_AV** · 09-15-2008, 20:17

Originally Posted by gardibolt

That's kind of my point. 10 Levy spearmen units is obviously more units and more men than three units of knights. But their numbers pretty clearly don't make them "better."

You ARE kidding, right?

Before writing stuff taken from out in the air, could you PLEASE just spend some time testing it?

I did some quick testing, and not even when I played as stupid as I possibly could (charging the general in first to let him die, and so on) did the knights ever win.

So yes, the numbers pretty clearly makes them "better"

And pretty please, test stuff like this before claiming things, you might confuse some new player visiting the boards.

The test I did was 10 spear militia vs 3 units of dismounted feudal knights. Flat map.

**FactionHeir** · 09-15-2008, 21:26

Testing it once is not informative. There are always chance results.

To really test it you need to play both the spears and the swords variably and each under VH no upgrades to either side. At least 20 times to get a decent outcome.

Just testing it once without specifying difficult etc and coming back and flaming others is not helpful.

**Kadagar_AV** · 09-15-2008, 21:36

Of course

... I did 2 tests from each perspective, flat map, VH/VH, no chevrons.

"Quick testing" for me is 2 games per side, one game when I play as stupid as I can, one where I play as good as I can.

Thus, 4 tests were made (2x2)

I did not "flame", I just completely argued against his position based on my prio knowledge and tests done...

And added that some testing would be nice to see before claiming stuff like this, to not confuse players seeking information....

EDIT: I didnt say I only ran the test once... Also, no, 20 tests are needed to get an exact number, not to prove a theory wrong. IE, Elephant artillery vs peasants.... You need 20 tests to judge the outcome? Of course not (allthough I dont argue you need it to get more exact numbers). However, 4 tests is sufficient to prove a obviosly false theory wrong, and saves me the repetition of doing 20 tests just to show the LEVEL of error. Showing the error is sufficient in a case like this, methinks. Am i wrong?

**El Diablo** · 09-16-2008, 00:15

I don't think it was so much the content of your post that was wrong it was more the type of discussion. Agressive negativity can get people backs up and results in flaming wars.

You may passionatly think that something is worong but just keeping it civil heps to get your point across.

Also it is very hard to judge the type of post when it is simply written down. You maybe trying to emphasie your point but alot of the good work can be undone by agressive posting that was probably not even intentional.

However - you did make a very good point and to get back on topic -

Perhaps the COST of the unit in a custom battle (to take account of any upgrades) could be the way to judge the value of the units. I know that some units are overpriced and hence over valued, but as a even way to determine an empires military value it could work?

Thoughts?

**pevergreen** · 09-13-2008, 01:21

Please keep on topic AoW.

@Yoyoma1910: It's right, we are discussing a turtle player, someone who sits there with only a few provinces, and doesnt take that many. They mainly sit and tech up.

I'm quite happy to represent turtling in a final battle vs ATPG. I would have community guided guidelines, but it would be interesting to see how it turned out.