Assorted Historical Questions - Gertrude et al, ask them here!

[paullus]

Alright, here's a space for asking basic questions.

I'll start with the question about Ptolemaic kataphraktoi, and Gertrude and others, if y'all have questions, add them in subsequent posts.

We don't know whether the Ptolemies might have experimented with kataphraktoi at that time, we actually have rather limited information on the armament of Ptolemaic cavalry at any time after Raphia. There are a handful of terracotta figurines of 2c or 1c bc Egyptian horsemen, and a single cavalryman from the Sidon stelai, but we get very little information on the equipment carried by the Hellenic cavalry units. The papyri don't mention kataphraktoi, but then again the picture of the Ptolemaic cavalry in the 2c bc isn't particularly clear: we see some references to hipparchies (cavalry commands), and many to the katoikoi hippeis (settler cavalry), but the former could refer to any sort of cavalry, and many of the latter were not horsemen at all. So while the state of the evidence is such that the Ptolemies could have had some kataphraktoi, perhaps drawn from their Cappadocian/north Cilician cavalrymen, we don't have the evidence that would show it well one way or the other. Those same Cappadocians and their neighbors may have been the same soldiers who, in campaigns into southern Egypt in the 3c, used felt armor to cover their horses. Its possible that these felt kataphraktoi persisted, but that's hard to track. If we assume that the felt-armored cavalry in the southern expeditions were in fact the Cappadocian/north Cilician cavalrymen, then we can track their unit down to the late 3c, when the son of a commander on an elephant hunt is a hipparch in the army. But the presence of those soldiers does not necessarily mean the presence of felt kataphraktoi.

[General Appo]

Yay, great idea!

[Barry Soteiro]

Thanks !!!!!!!!


So what about the mines in the steppe ? rhinoceros references ? hetaikoi kataphractoi masks ?

I hope those can be answered too!!!

[Dhampir]

Re: Ala Imperatoria "Imperial Cavalry Wing".

Is there a reason why these units cannot be recruited in Italy? It is because they represent an auxiliary unit?

In connection with that--did the Romans have non-Auxiliary cavalry (aside from the Praetorian) that was not auxiliary?

[Karo]

I think I can awnser the question about the steppe, my awnser comes out of the novel by Iggulden about Djenkis khan and there some one gets the command to go and dig out the orbs they needed for a sword and it would take months before they had enough. So don't think they had real mines and dig it up on a very premitive way or bought it. I could be worng

[paullus]

Gertrude, you'll have to post a more detailed question for some of those. I can however tell you that the hetairoi kataphraktoi mask is one of 3 masks depicted on a trio of cavalrymen fom a relief found in Afghanistan during the current war. Its not published, but one of our historians has seen it in a museum archive.

[abou]

hetaikoi kataphractoi [sic] masks ?

The masks for the Hetairoi Kataphraktoi come directly from the main source - a relief from Afghanistan. On it are three very heavily armored riders with masks: a Zeus type and two "big cat" types.

Re: Ala Imperatoria "Imperial Cavalry Wing".

Is there a reason why these units cannot be recruited in Italy? It is because they represent an auxiliary unit?

In connection with that--did the Romans have non-Auxiliary cavalry (aside from the Praetorian) that was not auxiliary?

Indeed. Anytime you see "Ala", it means auxiliary even though the literal translation is "wing". By the time of the Imperial era (and possibly Marian) the change in economy and recruitment method meant that anyone who was wealthy enough to own a horse and the land wouldn't serve in the military.

[Dhampir]

Indeed. Anytime you see "Ala", it means auxiliary even though the literal translation is "wing". By the time of the Imperial era (and possibly Marian) the change in economy and recruitment method meant that anyone who was wealthy enough to own a horse and the land wouldn't serve in the military.

Ah, thank you. Enlightening.

[QuintusSertorius]

Indeed. Anytime you see "Ala", it means auxiliary even though the literal translation is "wing". By the time of the Imperial era (and possibly Marian) the change in economy and recruitment method meant that anyone who was wealthy enough to own a horse and the land wouldn't serve in the military.

More likely beginning of the Marian era. I wouldn't be surprised that one of the reasons they stopped recruiting citizen cavalry was because their ability to recruit had all but disappeared. Those types would only serve if they were interested in a future in the Senate, in which case they'd try to get in as a contubernales or tribune.

[artaxerxes]

[QUOTE=Gertrude]So what about the mines in the steppe ? QUOTE]

Not being an expert at all but I just assume they bought it from more civilised places... And then got along with what they COULD assemble - clubs and stones CAN get you SOME of the way,... i think ;)
Those who had villages prolly found iron in the marshes (Danes did so), but out on the steppes I have difficulty imagining someone being safe enough to do so for long enough to actually make a substantial amount of weapons...

[Fish-got-a-Sniper]

What would the composition of a successor army (Maks, Ptolemies, AS) be composed of and how could you in turn make this into a functional EB army?

[keravnos]

What would the composition of a successor army (Maks, Ptolemies, AS) be composed of and how could you in turn make this into a functional EB army?

Give thanks to Eduorius for his excellent guide. Using his research...

Makedonia,

Army at the time of Alexandros

Based on the army at Granicus. I use this model because it was Alexandros first battle against Persia and it shows the best of Makedonia at the moment (in later battles Alexandros had reinforcements like horse archers).
1700 Companions
800 Prodromoi
1700 Thessaly cavalry
600 Greek cavalry
200 Paeonian cavalry
12000 phalanx
7000 allied Greek hoplites
3000 Hypaspists
6000 Thracian peltasts
5000 Greek mercenary peltasts
1000 Illyrians
500 Agrianians
500 Cretans

with EB units

1 General
Cavalry
1 unit of Heitaroi
1 unit of Podromoi
2 unit of Hippeis Thessalikoi
Infantry
3 units of Hoplitai
4 units of Pezhetairoi
2 units of Hypaspits
Light Infantry
3 units of Thraikoi Peltastai
2 units of Peltastai
1 unit of Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi
1 unit of Toxotai Kretikoi

* Some units were too small or don’t exist for Makedonia like the Paeonian cavalry or the Illyrian light infantry so I ommited them. Other EB units have more than what Alexandros used, but I ommited that too. I also omitted the Greek mercenary cavalry because they were too few, but you can change 1 unit of Hippeis Thessalikoi for them. With the Hypaspits, one of this was the agema so I think u can use the Pheraspidai as placeholders if you want.


Army at the the time of the wars with Rome

Based on the army of Phillip V at Cynoscephalae

16000 Phalanx
1500 Mercenaries
4000 Peltasts (2000 Thracians)
2000 Illyricum light infantry
1000 Macedonian cavalry
1000 Thessalian cavalry

with EB units

1 General
Cavalry
1 unit of Hippeis Thessalikoi
Light Infantry
1 units of Thraikoi Peltastai
1 units of Peltastai
Infantry
2 - 3 units of mercenaries (Triballi, Galatian, Cretan, Agriania, etc)
5 - 6 units of phalanx


* I wrote 2 or 3 units of mercenaries so that one of them could be in instead of the Illyrians who only appear for Epeiros. Some of the nationalities I used as example were at the battle of Pydna too.

Bibliography

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Macedonian_battle_formation.gif

The Genius of Alexander the Great by N.G. Hammond

Warfare in the Classical World by John Warry

Warfare in the Ancient World by Brian Todd Carey; Joshua B. Allfree,; John Cairns

www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/LX/MacedonianPhalanx.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman-Spartan_War

Ptolemaioi

Ptolemaic army (based on the battle of Raphia)
700 cavalry guard
2000 Egyptian cavalry
2000 Greek mercenary cavalry
73 elephants
3000 royal guard infantry
25000 phalanx
8000 Greek mercenary infantry
3000 Cretan archers
3000 Lybians
20000 Egyptians (phalanx)
6000 mercenaries (Thrace, Celts)


with EB units
1 General
1 unit of agemata klerouchoi hippeon/ or heitaroi
2 units of African elephants with towers
2 units of Cretan archers
1 unit of basilikon agemata
1 unit of thorakitai
1unit of klerouchoi agemata
2 units of pezhetairoi
2 units of klerouchoi phalangitai
4 units of machimoi phalangitai
1 unit of Galatikoi klerouchoi
1 unit of Thraikioi peltastai
1unit of Thessalikoi hippies

* Succesor armies are too big sometimes to fit in 20 stacks. This is one of this times, but here it is. I ommited the Greek mercenaries so that it fits in a 20 stack. If you want there are 2 units of Greek mercenary infantry. Remember this are for campaign.

Bibliography

*work done by abou with the Battle of Raphia – 217 BC mod for EB

Warfare in the Classical World by John Warry

Warfare in the Ancient World by Brian Todd Carey; Joshua B. Allfree,; John Cairns

Arche Seleukeia,

Seleukid army after the cataphract reform (based on the Magnesia model)

I don’t have the exact number of soldiers in this battle, but I know that the research done by tk-421 for the battle of Magnesia is excellent. Against the Romans, Antiochos III Megas had a huge army, so he divided it in two. So here are the units for your campaign or custom battles.
Phalanx
16,000 Macedonians
1,000 Argyraspides
Semi-heavy infantry
3,000 Tralli(?)
3,000 Thracians
2,000 Cappadocians
3,000 Galatians
4,000 Pisidians, Pamphylians, and Lycians(?)
Light infantry
3,000 Tralli(?)
1,500 Cretan archers
1,000 Neo-Cretan archers
2,500 Mysian archers
8,000 Elymaean archers and Cyrtian slingers
2,700 'Orientals'
1,500 Carians and Cilicians
4,000 Pisidians, Pamphylians, and Lycians
1,000 elephant guard
Heavy cavalry
6,000 cataphracts
2,000 Royal Guard
Light cavalry
1,200 Dahaeans (Scythians)
2,500 Galatians
500 'Tarentines' (mounted archers)


with EB units

1st Seleukid Army

1 General
1 unit of Daha Baexdzhyntae
3 units of Argyraspidai
2 units of Hellenikoi Kataphraktoi
8. Galatian Kuarothoroi
5 – 6 units of Pezhetairoi
1 unit of. Indian elephants
1 unit of Thanvare Payahdag
1 unit of Sphendonetai

2nd Seleukid Army
1 General
1 unit of Galatian Kuarothoroi
2 units of Pantodapoi
2 units of Hellenikoi Kataphractoi
2 units of Lavotuxri
1 unit of Hippakonistai (Placeholder for Tarentine Cavalry)
1 unit of Scythed Chariots
2 units of Thanvare Payahdag (placeholder for Elymaean archers)
2 units of Akontistai (placeholder for Eastern Javelinmen)
2 units of Sphendonetai (placeholder for Eastern Slingers)

Seleukid army before the kataphractoi reform (based on the model of Raphia)
20,000 Macedonians
10,000 Argyraspides
5,000 Greeks
Semi-heavy infantry
1,000 Thracians
Light infantry
1,500 Cretan archers
1,000 Neo-Cretan archers
500 Lydian akontists
10,000 Arabs
1,000 Cardacians
5,000 Dahae and Cilicians
2,000 Persian and 'Agrianian' bowmen and slingers
5,000 Medes, Cissians, Cadusians, and Carmanians
Heavy Cavalry
4,000 military settlers
2,000 Royal Guard

with EB units
1 General
Cavalry
1 unit of heitaroi
1 unit of mad asabara
2 units of Indian elephants with towers
Infantry
2 units of Cretan archers
1 unit of thorakitai
2 units of argyraspidai
4 units of klerouchoi phalangitai
2 units of Arabian levies
1 unit of thraikioi peltastai
1-persian archers (name slips me)
1-misthophoroi hippies

The Daphne procession, 165 BC
Phalanx
15,000 Macedonians
5,000 Argyraspides
Semi-heavy infantry
5,000 'Roman style'
3,000 Thracians
5,000 Mysians(?)
5,000 Galatians
Light infantry
3,000 Cilicians
5,000 Mysian (archers?)
Heavy cavalry
1,500 cataphracts
1,000 Nisaeans
2,000 Royal Guard

with EB units
1 General
Cavalry
1 unit of Hellenikoi kataphraktoi
1 unit of Mad Asabara (for the Niseans)
Infantry
5 units of phalanx
3 units of Argyraspides thorakitai
2 units of Thorakitai/Thureophoroi
2 units of Thraikioi peltastai
2 units of Galatian mercenaries
3 unit of Pantodapoi (for the Cilicians and Mysians)
1 units of archers or slingers (for the Mysian light infantry)

*Another interpretation of the army of Antiochus III Megas at the Battle of Raphia, done by Death Emperor(aka Dominicus Ultimus)
6,000-cavalry most likely Hetairoi or Assyrian heavy cavalry as the Seleukids had lost most of their Eastern territories by this time.
102 Indian war elephants, perhaps some were of the so-called Syrian breed.
20,000 phalangites
10,000 hypaspists
5,000 Greek mercenaries
2,500 Cretans most likely archers
17,000 Persian, Agrianian, Arabian, Median, Cadusian, and Carmanian auxiliary troops altogether
1,000 troops from Lydia
1,000 Cardaces (from a region I think not sure)
7,000 peltasts from various peoples

with EB units

3 units of Hetairoi or Prodromoi
1 group of Indian war elephants
4 units of pezhetairoi
2 units of Thorakitai or Argyraspid Thorakitai as hypaspistai are unavailable in EB.80
1 group of either mercenary Greek Classical hoplites Greek heavy hoplites
1 group of Cretan archers
3 units of Persian archers
1 group of either Sphendonetai or Pantodapoi
1 group of either Sphendonetai or Pantodapoi
2 groups of Peltastai
1 General and his bodyguard

Bibliography

Warfare in the Classical World by John Warry

Warfare in the Ancient World by Brian Todd Carey; Joshua B. Allfree,; John Cairns

*work done by abou with the Battle of Raphia – 217 BC mod for EB

* work done by tk-421 for the EB Historical Battle - Magnesia

Thank Eduorius, abou, and tk-421 and of course Paullus (much obliged Tellos) for a job well done!

[MeinPanzer]

and a single cavalryman from the Sidon stelai,

Which stele would that be?

So while the state of the evidence is such that the Ptolemies could have had some kataphraktoi, perhaps drawn from their Cappadocian/north Cilician cavalrymen, we don't have the evidence that would show it well one way or the other.

Is there any evidence for the use of cataphracts among the Cilicians or Cappadocians in the EB timeframe?

Those same Cappadocians and their neighbors may have been the same soldiers who, in campaigns into southern Egypt in the 3c, used felt armor to cover their horses. Its possible that these felt kataphraktoi persisted, but that's hard to track. If we assume that the felt-armored cavalry in the southern expeditions were in fact the Cappadocian/north Cilician cavalrymen, then we can track their unit down to the late 3c, when the son of a commander on an elephant hunt is a hipparch in the army. But the presence of those soldiers does not necessarily mean the presence of felt kataphraktoi.

But those felt cataphracts are explicitly stated to have come "from Greece."

[Spartan198]

Latin names have always confused me, so would somebody tell me if this is right --

Gaius - Middle Name
Julius - Family Name
Caesar - First Name

Is that correct? If not, could somebody explain where I'm wrong?

[QuintusSertorius]

Latin names have always confused me, so would somebody tell me if this is right --

Gaius - Middle Name
Julius - Family Name
Caesar - First Name

Is that correct? If not, could somebody explain where I'm wrong?

Not really.

Gaius - praenomen which is equivalent to our given names. For a long time there were a limited number of them.

Julius - nomen, which describes what main family group he's from. Roughly equivalent to a surname.

Caesar - cognomen which started out as a nickname either to distinguish someone from others with the same name (since father, son and grandson could all have the same name). Eventually became heridary, especially useful for some of the larger notable families, like the Caecilii Metellii which had lots of members and many branches to it.

[chomskola]

Hi all, My big question is about the difference between the germans in say RTW or EB time frame and the BI time frame. First the german tribes are not all that much distinguished I know we have the cheruscii and suebi and so on, but they dont seem too advanced in terms of technology and equipment however by the BI time frame we have huge distinct german tribes with men whose equipment is the equal of rome and even whose troops in some cases are superior in many ways, some groups have great cavalry, heavy cavalry and all that jazz, the tribes seem to occupy a huge area?? did germanic tribes simply start breeding like rabbits in those few hundred years? were they inaccurately reported by the scholars in the time of caesar and augustus? there just seems to be such a huge difference, when you compare them to say....the celts. appreciate the help before my brain explodes...hope its clear what im getting at

[russia almighty]

Metallurgy methods improved, raw material stashes were found, farming methods improved (though in some cases, not enough)


Since where on the topic, were these German "problems" near the end more true lock stock and barrel migrations, or more like ambitious chiefs/kings deciding to carve themselves an empire?