BAILOUT: Yes or No?

[Spino]

Yeah, it's interesting that even though he suspended his campaign to work on this issue, Johnny Mac didn't have the pull to swing Repub Congresscritters to the side of Socialism. Bush is a wildly unpopular lame-duck president, so no surprises there — he could hardly be expected to move this thing.

Yes but what about those 94 Democrats who voted against the bill? A higher percentage of Democratic Congressmen broke with their party and voted against the bill than Republicans who bucked their party and voted for it. Of those 94 votes the Democrats couldn't scratch out the 20 or so needed to pass the bill?

Thanks for that link referencing election year concerns. It should never come as a surprise when a politician puts re-election before principles (although, in this case many Republicans were actually voting for their traditional party principles as opposed to those who broke with said principles during the spending binges that took place during the Bush administration).

[Koga No Goshi]

Yes but what about those 94 Democrats who voted against the bill? A higher percentage of Democratic Congressmen broke with their party and voted against the bill than Republicans who bucked their party and voted for it. Of those 94 votes the Democrats couldn't scratch out the 20 or so needed to pass the bill?

Thanks for that link referencing election year concerns. It should never come as a surprise when a politician puts re-election before principles (although, in this case many Republicans were actually voting for their traditional party principles as opposed to those who broke with the spending binges during the Bush administration).

I think we all need to keep in mind that this is not the Imperial Senate in Star Wars. This is one month out from a major election and Congressional offices have been flooded with furious letters and calls about the bailout-- there is NO major support from the public. The momentum among politicians, the President, and the business sector has ranged from "We HAVE to do something, NOW!" to "Sigh, I guess we have to do it or this will get much worse." From the public, the insistent attitude is more like oh hell no, let it all burn, I don't care if the market crashes more.

So, to simply call it the lack of kneecaps or leadership amongst the parties is a bit off mark. Politicians are always on the cautious side right before an election, true, but they are torn between being insisted upon that this will cause another great depression from the "experts" and business community on Wall Street, and the public on the other hand hopping mad. And I still have not heard from anyone (well, besides Bush) who even CLAIMS to understand this crisis, what the implications are, why the 700 billion figure was selected, how it would be used, or how it would prevent specific economic calamities. I think that's true for most of the people in Congress, too. It's just fear tactics on one side and angry public on the other. Unless they are getting VASTLY more detailed information and the media isn't bothering to share or report it, they're almost making a big decision in the dark. I don't blame them for wanting to wait and get both parties on board with one decision or the other-- if they vote no, and the doomsday people are correct, they will have just voted in the economic end of our country as we know it. If they vote yes, and the doomsday people were selfserving liars, they've just gutted the treasury and handed it away to thieves.

Easy decision? Maybe on a forum, with no real responsibility for how the decision turns out. :)

[cmacq]

I think we all need to keep in mind that this is not the Imperial Senate in Star Wars. This is one month out from a major election and Congressional offices have been flooded with furious letters and calls about the bailout-- there is NO major support from the public. The momentum among politicians, the President, and the business sector has ranged from "We HAVE to do something, NOW!" to "Sigh, I guess we have to do it or this will get much worse." From the public, the insistent attitude is more like oh hell no, let it all burn, I don't care if the market crashes more.

So, to simply call it the lack of kneecaps or leadership amongst the parties is a bit off mark. Politicians are always on the cautious side right before an election, true, but they are torn between being insisted upon that this will cause another great depression from the "experts" and business community on Wall Street, and the public on the other hand hopping mad. And I still have not heard from anyone (well, besides Bush) who even CLAIMS to understand this crisis, what the implications are, why the 700 billion figure was selected, how it would be used, or how it would prevent specific economic calamities. I think that's true for most of the people in Congress, too. It's just fear tactics on one side and angry public on the other. Unless they are getting VASTLY more detailed information and the media isn't bothering to share or report it, they're almost making a big decision in the dark. I don't blame them for wanting to wait and get both parties on board with one decision or the other-- if they vote no, and the doomsday people are correct, they will have just voted in the economic end of our country as we know it. If they vote yes, and the doomsday people were selfserving liars, they've just gutted the treasury and handed it away to thieves.

Easy decision? Maybe on a forum, with no real responsibility for how the decision turns out. :)

You really don't understand Americans, do you?

[Koga No Goshi]

You really don't understand Americans, do you?

Um? You mean, demanding and unreasonable and rapidly blanket-judgmental? :)

[drone]

And I still have not heard from anyone (well, besides Bush) who even CLAIMS to understand this crisis, what the implications are, why the 700 billion figure was selected, how it would be used, or how it would prevent specific economic calamities. I think that's true for most of the people in Congress, too.

IIRC, I think the $700b comes from the deficit cap limitation. Got raised to $1.5t recently, so it meshes with the current spending to get that number.

My rep (Republican) voted for it. Makes it easier to vote against him come November.

You know, I get the feeling whomever is going to be in elected office over the next 4 years, regardless of their party affiliation, will wind up being some of the most unpopular and hated politicians this country has ever had. Obama might wind up winning the Presidency only to have his ego fueled pipe dreams of being beloved by the masses dashed by the seething hatred of the mob looking for an outlet for their frustration. It's going to get reeeeallly ugly.

I think it's very early in this thread, but I said the same thing. This was before the current crash, but signs were there along with the mess in Iraq/Afghanistan. Whoever wins this is going to be a one termer. We had, what, 15 candidates at the start? All wanting the job of janitor.

[Koga No Goshi]

IIRC, I think the $700b comes from the deficit cap limitation. Got raised to $1.5t recently, so it meshes with the current spending to get that number.

My rep (Republican) voted for it. Makes it easier to vote against him come November.

I have heard from multiple sources that, when asked, Paulson's staff and such are admitting the number was just made up. They knew they needed a big amount and there is no guarantee they won't come back later asking for a trill.

[Koga No Goshi]

Let me "put a face" on 700 billion for you. This is taken directly from Time Magazine, so those of you who are geekboys like me and read it might have seen this already.

What you could do with 700,000,000,000 dollars:

*Give every person in the United States $2,300.

*Pay the income taxes of every American who makes $500,000 per year or less.

*Fully fund the Defense, Treasury, Education, State, Veterans Affairs and Interior departments next year, as well as NASA.

*Buy gasoline for every car in the U.S. for 16 months.

*Buy every NFL, NBA and Major League Baseball team and build each one a new stadium - and pay your players $191 million apiece for a year.

*Create the 17th largest economy in the world, roughly equal to the Netherlands.

*Or, you could pay off 7% of the 9.8 trillion dollar national debt.

[Caius]

Now, will the Gov save the people? or the market?

[Ice]

Now, will the Gov save the people? or the market?

In this case, both.

[seireikhaan]

Hmm...

I wonder if George is practicing his fiddle right now?

Jokes aside, I'm glad on a principal that this bill failed. Yeah, this(these) next few year(s) will undoubtedly be rough and will suck. But, America's gotten soft and credit-happy. We need to learn a lesson.

[cmacq]

Hmm...

I wonder if George is practicing his fiddle right now?

Jokes aside, I'm glad on a principal that this bill failed. Yeah, this(these) next few year(s) will undoubtedly be rough and will suck. But, America's gotten soft and credit-happy. We need to learn a lesson.

Agreed.

[Ice]

Sorry if I missed anyone, but this post by Ironside was the most correct out of everything I've read so far:

As for the bailout, a reluctant yes, if done properly it would keep the economy up, mostly repay itself back and give the investors a nasty burn aswell

It's nice to see the usual partisan rhetoric going on in this thread and Congress. Instead of solving this in the least painful way and listen to the two men who actually know they are talking about, I have about -5% faith in Congress, what does Congress do? Bicker and Bicker and Bicker about stupid stuff that could wait. I'm going to have to agree with Tribesman that most, if not all politicians, are a waste of air.

While I can see the angle many of the absolute free marketers are getting out, theory and reality are two different things. Guys, this is bad. REAL BAD. If the FED hadn't take the appropriate steps already, this would have been a hell of a lot worse (think depression). I'm not going to put this country, 99% of which isn't responsible for this problem, to hell for a few years just to say I stood my ground.

Another issue is the bailout money. 700 billion is an estimation of the total bad debt that needs to be purchased from companies. This isn't set in stone, nor is will we simply add this debt to the national debt. Most of this debt, quite possibly could be recovered, so we are most likely looking at a much smaller number.

Sorry if this is a little vague, but I have had a really long day and decided to respond here as I consider this the most important thread quite possibly on this forum.

Likewise, apologies again if I sound arrogant, but I have a class entitled "Money and Banking" which deals with this three times a week for atleast an hour, not counting out of class work and discussion. This is also my professors field of specialty and he personally knows/communicates a few of the actual FED board members.

Edit: I forgot to add my opinion on investors. This "bailout" will still give investors a nasty burn. Most will only be able to recover a small amount of their portfolio. There are no free rides.

[Koga No Goshi]

While I can see the angle many of the absolute free marketers are getting out, theory and reality are two different things. Guys, this is bad. REAL BAD. If the FED hadn't take the appropriate steps already, this would have been a hell of a lot worse (think depression). I'm not going to put this country, 99% of which isn't responsible for this problem, to hell for a few years just to say I stood my ground.

I agree it probably has to be done. I'm digging in my feet and being stubborn, knowing that my personal opinion isn't going to change that something HAS to be done. And I actually do trust Congress, on the whole, to recognize that and act accordingly. But I think the partisanship comes in when people are trying to use this as a way to, yet again, sneak in provisions for no oversight, no regulation, no accountability, or corporate tax cuts (such as with the McCain alternative plan.) If this bill had gone through exactly as our President presented it and insisted it MUST pass, QUICKLY, with no add-on's, without oversight and regulation attached, there's no telling how this money would have been used and it would be too late to try to do something about it being misused. I don't think having serious concerns about DOING THIS RIGHT, rather than DOING THIS FAST, and not being billygoated into signing something too quick like with other bad big gubment interventions like the Patriot Act can, or should, be called partisan hackery.

[Ice]

I agree it probably has to be done. I'm digging in my feet and being stubborn, knowing that my personal opinion isn't going to change that something HAS to be done. And I actually do trust Congress, on the whole, to recognize that and act accordingly. But I think the partisanship comes in when people are trying to use this as a way to, yet again, sneak in provisions for no oversight, no regulation, no accountability, or corporate tax cuts (such as with the McCain alternative plan.) If this bill had gone through exactly as our President presented it and insisted it MUST pass, QUICKLY, with no add-on's, without oversight and regulation attached, there's no telling how this money would have been used and it would be too late to try to do something about it being misused. I don't think having serious concerns about DOING THIS RIGHT, rather than DOING THIS FAST, and not being billygoated into signing something too quick like with other bad big gubment interventions like the Patriot Act can, or should, be called partisan hackery.

Doing right is doing it fast. The more time we waste bickering over stupid things, (exectitve compensation, in a 700 BILLION DOLLAR Bill), the faster we can start the recovery.

I'm amazed you actually trust Congress. Have you listened to a lot of what the big shots (speaker of the house, leader of the senate majority) sound like? They don't know their *** from their face. There is a reason why Bernanke and Paulson made the bill a page and half long.

[Koga No Goshi]

Doing right is doing it fast. The more time we waste bickering over stupid things, (exectitve compensation, in a 700 BILLION DOLLAR Bill), the faster we can start the recovery.

I'm amazed you actually trust Congress. Have you listened to a lot of what the big shots (speaker of the house, leader of the senate majority) sound like? They don't know their *** from their face. There is a reason why Bernanke and Paulson made the bill a page and half long.

I trust Congress on the whole to recognize that something must be done and act accordingly. The fact that SOME form of bill WAS going to be passed has been an almost foregone conclusion since day one, whereas if public sentiment had its way this thing would be dead, dead, dead. So that puts Congress at the very least ahead of the general public, in this case, doesn't it?

[Hosakawa Tito]

I am glad it was voted down. Hold these feet to the fire a bit longer. Don't believe for a minute that the Administration and pols from both parties didn't know this financial meltdown was coming; they were just hoping the didn't hit the fan till after the election. Now, in less than a week, they want to stampede us into a $700 billion bailout (where'd they pull that figure from?) with vague specifics and "promises to address...um later" the flaws in the system. Some of these corporate officers and the rating agencies who rated junk securities as AAA have colluded to commit fraud, while federal regulators have looked the other way or had their warnings suppressed. I want to see a perp walk. I want to see jail time for the worst offenders and fines + banishment from the financial industry for the others. And I want to see it before the taxpayer hands over a dime.

[Ice]

I am glad it was voted down. Hold these feet to the fire a bit longer. Don't believe for a minute that the Administration and pols from both parties didn't know this financial meltdown was coming; they were just hoping the didn't hit the fan till after the election. Now, in less than a week, they want to stampede us into a $700 billion bailout (where'd they pull that figure from?) with vague specifics and "promises to address...um later" the flaws in the system. Some of these corporate officers and the rating agencies who rated junk securities as AAA have colluded to commit fraud, while federal regulators have looked the other way or had their warnings suppressed. I want to see a perp walk. I want to see jail time for the worst offenders and fines + banishment from the financial industry for the others. And I want to see it before the taxpayer hands over a dime.

There will hearings, as the FBI is looking into the matter now, but such things take time. Taxpayer money wouldn't do much if we wait till next year to do anything.

This isn't actually the administration who put this together either. Ben Bernanke, the Chairman of the Federal Reserve Board of Governors, and the Treasury Secretary , both very smart men, put this together.

One last time for clarity: Although I disagree with most of you on what needs to be done, I do see your point of view. Just because I want a "Bailout" doesn't mean that I'm not pissed at these SOBS. There will be justice for most, but these things take time.