Jorg Haider is Dead

[Kadagar_AV]

Don't drink and drive:(

I would never have voted for him, but as a politician he brought new life into Austrian politics.

He said many things that were true, but very not politicly correct.

My favourite was when he showed how hypocritical the EU was. When he got voted into the government, EU boycoted Austria for a while, since they had voted for a extreme right wing party.

Oh how strong democracy is! Right?

"You can vote for whoever you want, as long as you don't vote wrong"

This happening led me to get expelled from "society" class, as I claimed it was idiocy for a democratic institution like the EU to not accept a democratic vote.

Oh, the good old times;)

Anyway, rest in peace.

[Meneldil]

Don't drink and drive:(

My favourite was when he showed how hypocritical the EU was. When he got voted into the government, EU boycoted Austria for a while, since they had voted for a extreme right wing party.

Oh how strong democracy is! Right?

"You can vote for whoever you want, as long as you don't vote wrong"

So what ? You admit he was leading a far-right party, and then expect the EU to quietly sit and wait to see how things are going in Austria ?
In the - I admit, quite unlikely - event he would have started some crazy far-right policy, you would then have blamed the EU because 'it didn't do anything ! :-('

The EU did not invade Austria, nor did it push him out of the office. It boycotted Austria, as it was perfectly entitled to do in that case.
Would Le Pen have won the 2002 elections in France, I'm fairly sure - and hope - he would have been boycotted by the EU.

So yeah, do not rest in peace, you were an ass and died in a stupid way.

[Kadagar_AV]

What is left of democracy when an outcome of a democratic election is not accepted within EU?

Are we free to vote, or restricted in our votes?

It is a vital question. The EU in this case did not behave democraticly.

It would be something different if it was a country outside of the EU, but to not respect teh democratic outcome of a member state?

*rolleyes*

[PanzerJaeger]

So what ? You admit he was leading a far-right party, and then expect the EU to quietly sit and wait to see how things are going in Austria ?
In the - I admit, quite unlikely - event he would have started some crazy far-right policy, you would then have blamed the EU because 'it didn't do anything ! :-('

The EU did not invade Austria, nor did it push him out of the office. It boycotted Austria, as it was perfectly entitled to do in that case.
Would Le Pen have won the 2002 elections in France, I'm fairly sure - and hope - he would have been boycotted by the EU.

So yeah, do not rest in peace, you were an ass and died in a stupid way.

Is there any wonder why the EU is having a hard time sealing the deal? I dont think most people want to restrict democracy within the bounds of what the EU finds acceptable or to be punished when they elect an EU critic.

[Meneldil]

Is there any wonder why the EU is having a hard time sealing the deal? I dont think most people want to restrict democracy within the bounds of what the EU finds acceptable or to be punished when they elect an EU critic.

The EU having a 'hard time sealing the deal' has nothing to do with Jorg Haider. The EU is a mess, that got even more messy with the introduction of 12 new members.

But as Louis said, the EU isn't all about 'free trade and single market', wether our british friends like it or not. It has political aims, such as you know, protecting democracy and all that kind of things.

I'm pretty sure that, would Jorg Haider have been the leader of the Austrian Communist Party, you would all have been like 'Zomg a communist is elected in Europe and the EU isn't doing anything :''''''( '

[Fragony]

I'm pretty sure that, would Jorg Haider have been the leader of the Austrian Communist Party, you would all have been like 'Zomg a communist is elected in Europe and the EU isn't doing anything :''''''( '

Who is the leader of the austian communist party?

[Meneldil]

Who is the leader of the austian communist party?

And your point is ?

an attitude, that if prevalent among the EU quangocrats, that is another reason why i want the
UK to have as little to do with the EU as possible.

/sadface, we will miss UK so much. Oh wait, UK will never leave EU anyway.

that defies belief!
how was the election of haider anything other than democratic?

You're off the point. None said Haider wasn't elected democratically (but then, may I remind you that a lot of :flower: were elected democratically).

What you having a hard time to understand is that Jorg Haider was out of the political spectrum on which are built the basis of an European Community. Thus, the EU as a political entity was perfectly entitled in boycotting him.

Mind you, I can understand all the fuss about the will of the sovereign people of Austria. But if you still believe in 'the will of the people' than I recommend you a reality check.

A lot of countries (including the US) use boycott quite commonly against democratic governments. Why does it suddenly become an issue when the EU boycott a far-right party led by a freak ?

Seriosly people, the person in question is dead. Show some respect.

That whole 'You Shall Not Say Bad Things About That Guy Because He's Dead' is probably the worst part of the PC crap that have been enforced over the western world in the last decades.
The guy lost all respect I could have had for him when he decided to drive while intoxicated.

[Husar]

That whole 'You Shall Not Say Bad Things About That Guy Because He's Dead' is probably the worst part of the PC crap that have been enforced over the western world in the last decades.

I don't always understand it either, maybe I should talk more about the positive sides of Saddam and Vlad the impaler instead of mentioning their cruel aspects all the time, I mean that's pretty disrespectful of such great politicians who did a lot of good to themselves.

[Fragony]

So what ? You admit he was leading a far-right party, and then expect the EU to quietly sit and wait to see how things are going in Austria ?
In the - I admit, quite unlikely - event he would have started some crazy far-right policy, you would then have blamed the EU because 'it didn't do anything ! :-('

Did I really just read this?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I could not agree more with Meneldil. The EU is not the United Nations, it is instead an assembly of democracies. Franco couldn't join, Salazar couldn't join, the Greek colonels couldn't join, the communists states couldn't join. Not until they were democracies they couldn't. Similarly, if a country lapses into an undemocratic system, it will get kicked out. Less dramatic, if it has undemocratic parties in it's government, it risks resistance, even boycott, from other countries.

Like it or not, the EU is about spreading and safeguarding democracy in Europe. So sorry for all our authoritarian politicians out there. Don't like it? Leave. Get on a plane and fly to North Korea or Syria.
We just spend a disastrous century trying to keep communism, fascism, authroritarianism down. It nearly destroyed Europe. Never again.

Was Haider a nazi? Perhaps not.
But is it unreasonable for Europe to be very wary of nazism in Austria? Of Austrian politicians palling around with SS men, of singing the praise of Austrian moral superiority over lesser peoples, of Austrian anti-Semitism and praise for it's dark WWII history?
I think not.

~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

Haider died as he lived, over the limit and full of gas.
Alcohol promillage of 1.8, and doing 142 km an hour. Thank God he crashed before he hurt any innocents.

+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

Frag - you whine about Muslims undermining European values and democracy, trying to install Islamofascism. Yet you are disappointed when Europe actually tries to prevent Eurofascism?

TuffStuff - especially for you: you do realise Haider had many extramarital homosexual affairs? He was legendary in the Vienna gay scene.

PanzerJaeger - On meeting Saddam Hussein in the run-up to the Iraq war, Haider expressed the 'best wishes of the Austrian people and the Freedom party as well as their solidarity with the people of Iraq and their wise leadership'.
You will need to choose, PJ. A man can't both support America and European nazism. They are mortal enemies.

[Fragony]

Frag - you whine about Muslims undermining European values and democracy, trying to install Islamofascism. Yet you are disappointed when Europe actually tries to prevent Eurofascism?


I thought you understood my position on the islamisation this is kinda dissapointing. As for Haider, if Haider would be elected would there be no democracy anymore, would there be no opposition, no parlement, he wouldn't be 'in power'. Never really knew him, looking back he is way too extreme for my taste but allowing the EU to intervene in national democratic processes, you kidding me? No way there is nothing that keeps the EU in check. The racist right exists for a reason, that reason being utmost stupidity and sadly the response is even worse if it happens to be the EU.

[drone]

So does this mean the US gets a free pass from Europe (or at least France) for cutting off the Palestinians when they elected HAMAS?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I thought you understood my position on the islamisation this is kinda dissapointing.

Actually, I though you and I shared an open and uncompromising aversion to Islamofascism.

You like politicians who break open a few taboos. Who shoot some holes in blind muliticulturalism. Maybe I do too. But where's the fun if we can't cross swords over details?

[Fragony]

Sorry, in 99% of these cases there isn't any room for play that makes one defensive.

[PanzerJaeger]

I could not agree more with Meneldil. The EU is not the United Nations, it is instead an assembly of democracies. Franco couldn't join, Salazar couldn't join, the Greek colonels couldn't join, the communists states couldn't join. Not until they were democracies they couldn't. Similarly, if a country lapses into an undemocratic system, it will get kicked out. Less dramatic, if it has undemocratic parties in it's government, it risks resistance, even boycott, from other countries.

Like it or not, the EU is about spreading and safeguarding democracy in Europe. So sorry for all our authoritarian politicians out there. Don't like it? Leave. Get on a plane and fly to North Korea or Syria.
We just spend a disastrous century trying to keep communism, fascism, authroritarianism down. It nearly destroyed Europe. Never again.

Was Haider a nazi? Perhaps not.
But is it unreasonable for Europe to be very wary of nazism in Austria? Of Austrian politicians palling around with SS men, of singing the praise of Austrian moral superiority over lesser peoples, of Austrian anti-Semitism and praise for it's dark WWII history?
I think not.

That's all well and good, but Haider was a democratically elected politician who made no attempts to change that system. If the EU wants to bully countries that elect anti-eu politicians, thats their perogative - but don't try and dress it up as anything other than that.

PanzerJaeger - On meeting Saddam Hussein in the run-up to the Iraq war, Haider expressed the 'best wishes of the Austrian people and the Freedom party as well as their solidarity with the people of Iraq and their wise leadership'.

You act as though his sentiments on the Iraq conflict were unique to Europeans. Most Europeans sought to undermine US efforts. Your own president at the time gave Saddam far more support than Haider ever could have by seriously damaging the transatlantic alliance.

In any event, I do not support every position he held, but I don't discount him completely for those disagreements.

You will need to choose, PJ. A man can't both support America and European nazism. They are mortal enemies.

Nazism is dead. I support honoring the brave German soldiers who fought and died in WW2; and moving past myth of German exceptionalism in the "evil" department.


Also, poor show trying to use the man's sexuality to dissuade his supporters, as if it has anything to do with the discussion. You'd make a wonderful Republican.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Haider was a cocaine sniffing pederast.

I brought it up, not so much because I mind - except for Haider's incereasing tendency to rape fifteen year old Slovakian boys for kicks - but because I have an inkling that it might dissuade TuffStuffMcGruff away from him. TSM expressed some curiousity about Haider. Now he knows who Haider is.
Did I mention yet that our hypocrite portrayed himself as a family man? Married with children and all that?

I'm sorry I only have a German link. However, the accompanying pictures should suffice.


No more cocaine-imbued rape-fests of Slovakian children for you, Jörg! Auf Wiedersehn!

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I'm sorry I only have a German link. However, the accompanying pictures should suffice.

Come on Louis, a better source if you please. I'd at least like some guarantee that those aren't photoshopped.

[JR-]

nb

neither of my comments above indicate any support for haider or his ideas, i would quite frankly be embarassed if my country even came close to electing someone of his ilk.

[Oleander Ardens]

I will never agree with Haiders ideology but painting him as Nazi goes far to far. If he would be have been an Italian or Czech nobody would have gone so far. And many Italians aka Bossi have more extremist policies than he had.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

People should check out Haider's policies on the Wiki page for the Austrian election. They're really not that far-right, whether you agree with him or not.

[Fragony]

I will never agree with Haiders ideology but painting him as Nazi goes far to far.

Not if you make an effort out of dragging them in it isn't, perfectly acceptable to hold that against him. Nazi's are scum, they aren't even right they believe in strong government, they are racist totalitarian idiots that is all. The real right is about equality, screw nazi's and anything that comes even remotily close to being close.

[Strike For The South]

What is German exceptionalism and why is it evil?

[Koga No Goshi]

What is German exceptionalism and why is it evil?

I would imagine it's just the German version of American exceptionalism.

And although I think "evil" is a dramatic word, I think the reason any "exceptionalism" is bad is because it is basically embracing the idea that you are better, rules don't apply the same way to you, you rise above other people or countries, etc. etc.

[PanzerJaeger]

What is German exceptionalism and why is it evil?

"exceptionalism in the 'evil' department"

I was referring to the notion that the Holocaust is somehow a unique event in human history, or even in the Second World War - and thus makes the Germans exceptionally "evil". Sadly, ethnic cleansing was a relatively common occurrence throughout much of history - and still is. As horrific and shameful as the Holocaust was, it was neither the largest in scale nor the most brutal in nature - even in terms of WW2.

A Russian politician who praises the Red Army is not automatically assumed to support wanton genocide and neither is an proud American politician assumed to support using nuclear weapons against innocent women and children. Yet somehow a German or Austrian politician who acknowledges the heroism and sacrifice of honorable German soldiers is assumed to hold Nazi views. It's a double standard that is thankfully subsiding as we move farther from the conflict.

Just to be clear, I'm in no way discounting the atrocity that was the Holocaust in any way. I just feel it gets an inordinate amount of attention for reasons that are not historically justified. It has become a profitable industry.. and frankly, the deliciously evil German archetype is much more interesting to portray in movies and such than some bland and obscure Russian gulag commandant.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Louis, there were rumors about Mr. Haider being homosexual, but to my knowledge, they were not conclusively proven. Either way, however, it wouldn't have mattered - are you trying to bait TSM, or are you turning into a member of the evangelical right?

[JR-]

So what ? You admit he was leading a far-right party, and then expect the EU to quietly sit and wait to see how things are going in Austria ?
In the - I admit, quite unlikely - event he would have started some crazy far-right policy, you would then have blamed the EU because 'it didn't do anything ! :-('

The EU did not invade Austria, nor did it push him out of the office. It boycotted Austria, as it was perfectly entitled to do in that case.
Would Le Pen have won the 2002 elections in France, I'm fairly sure - and hope - he would have been boycotted by the EU.

So yeah, do not rest in peace, you were an ass and died in a stupid way.

an attitude, that if prevalent among the EU quangocrats, that is another reason why i want the UK to have as little to do with the EU as possible.

I could not agree more with Meneldil. The EU is not the United Nations, it is instead an assembly of democracies. Franco couldn't join, Salazar couldn't join, the Greek colonels couldn't join, the communists states couldn't join. Not until they were democracies they couldn't. Similarly, if a country lapses into an undemocratic system, it will get kicked out. Less dramatic, if it has undemocratic parties in it's government, it risks resistance, even boycott, from other countries.

that defies belief!
how was the election of haider anything other than democratic?