Some joyous tidings from Israel

[KukriKhan]

By that standard, all of us -- save perhaps Costa Rica -- are all immoral bastards. All of our nations have waged wars, often aggressively and some without even a "fig-leaf" to hide behind.

The only "moral" stance would be passive defense and letting the other guy kill you -- only using violence in a limited fashion and only when there existed virtually no possibility of any non-combatant taking the chop. That's as close to "never" as possible.

So, Idaho, your stance seems to boil down to -- no, you have never stated such in so many words -- "Israel should quit and cede political control to the Palestinians." That's even less likely then my "go passive" odd new approach suggestion.

Indeed, we are all... or have been, immoral bastards.

So the question is: who's job is it to solve this problem; stop this seemingly wanton killing? Israel? US? Palestine? Iran?

Idaho seems to think that absent US military hardware and support, Israel would crumble militarily. That might be a valid point.

I humbly posit that it is on the Palestinian people, those folks who feel oppressed, to get bold, throw off the yoke of perceived oppression, declare themselves an independent people, and form their own country.

Write a declaration of independence. Ignore and refuse any and all aid from their oppressors. Form a government, declare borders, fly a flag, issue a currency, form an army, construct a police force, hold verifiable elections, and so on and so on.

What's with waiting to be given freedom? It is not given. It is taken. Asserted. Assumed. Those 'inalienable' thingees a smart guy wrote about a few years back.

Wanna see US public opinion, and gov't policy change in a week? Try that.

Ditch the rockets and mortar fire. That's teeanage and tribal get-even stuff.

In this idiot's opinion.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

In sales terms, Kukri's plan would be labeled an "assumptive close." Don't ask, don't worry about vengeance, start your own place and make it stick. You might be able to sell that on the "street" since, in practice, it would involve quite a lot of bloodletting. A good bit of scrupulous attention to hit military and police targets only and they might even get foreign intervention and the like. It would certainly be harder for the USA to continue support if there were more guerilla and less terrorist targeting choices.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I humbly posit that it is on the Palestinian people, those folks who feel oppressed, to get bold, throw off the yoke of perceived oppression, declare themselves an independent people, and form their own country.

Write a declaration of independence. Ignore and refuse any and all aid from their oppressors. Form a government, declare borders, fly a flag, issue a currency, form an army, construct a police force, hold verifiable elections, and so on and so on.

What's with waiting to be given freedom? It is not given. It is taken. Asserted. Assumed. Those 'inalienable' thingees a smart guy wrote about a few years back.

Interesting idea, but impractical beyond theory.

To start: Where? Even Antarctica is claimed. Any part of the current Middle East is part of someone's territory, and that someone is likely to take a dim view of the declaration. You have a few pointed sticks and some imported mortars/rockets. They have state of the art military hardware supplied by the world's superpower. If you fight for your freedom and choice of land, does that make you a warrior of freedom in George Washington's image, or a terrorist?

Second: You need to feed and service your people. Thus farmland and probably access to the coast for trade would be a plan. So, return to point one. Where are you? Surrounded on all sides by a military machine refusing to allow you trade across your borders? A nice little camp on the fringes of the Sahara (or abandonded desert of choice) like Polisario (who declared the independence of Western Sahara in the 70's and have since been really newsworthy).

Third: Form public institutions with what? I can easily create my own currency, but without recognition from others, it's just paper or tin. I can arm my butler but his viciously sharpened slice of mango is not going to help him much if another government refuses me legitimacy.

To bring it back home, Ireland "declared" freedom from England 800 years back. Took us a very nasty series of wars and eventually even nastier terrorism to establish that freedom beyond theory. Even the independence of the United States depended much more on an ocean, global politics and the French than merely writing one of the most magnificent documents of human history.

The Palestinians represented by Hamas have de facto, declared the independent homeland you advocate. They have been ignored, and so fight, as the colonists of the States did, against their oppressors. They represent values that their oppressors despise, just as the British despised the liberty-mongers. And just as the Founding Fathers would, had the word been in vogue, have been called terrorists, the Palestinians are vilified.

Israel itself was founded on terrorism, murder and violence. They had the advantage that they fought against the British Empire in decline, which did not have the stomach for mass reprisals. One might have thought then, that the Palestinian cause, however poorly prosecuted (and it must be recognised that the commitments, however rhetorical, to Israel's ultimate demise make a huge stumbling block) would attract more approval from the American people.

[FactionHeir]

Well sourced account of the whole ordeal so far:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decembe...rip_airstrikes
(Read the 8:46 version)

One thing that hasn't been talked about much is the killing of police. I'm interested in my fellow Backroomers' take on killing police officers, who IMO are clearly civilians.

What strikes me the most, however, is the report in the Dec 30th section where the Israelis have agreed that Hamas non military targets are being attacked, such as sports centers, kinder gartens and the like to undermine support for Hamas by destroying all their infrastructure and social institutions that serve the populace.
While certainly a blow to the political organization, to me it clearly is an act of vandalism if not terrorism to give the green light for such atrocities, especially as there is a very high risk of civilians being killed with such attacks and just about no chance that a Hamas militant will die in those strikes (though now anyone who seems even affiliated with Hamas seems to be a "legitimate" target now).

[Ironside]

One thing that hasn't been talked about much is the killing of police. I'm interested in my fellow Backroomers' take on killing police officers, who IMO are clearly civilians.

Depends, police officers are civilians (although often associated with the goverment, thus often targeted due to that), but I'm not sure if Hamas is using them as gendarmes (well, rather as the exact opposite). That (police forces that is also intended to be used as military forces) would be a legimite target.

Don't know the original wording by Hamas, but they are often translated to be security forces, thus atleast implying that they have other purposes as well. If that's Hamas or the translators I don't know.