Some joyous tidings from Israel

[Husar]

Ignore Tribesman. He's just trying to pick a fight through his pedantry.

Eh, he is correct about Tel Aviv and Jerusalem as you can read here.

Jerusalem is only the capital of Israel in the minds of people who ignore everybody else's thoughts on the matter. Such people should not be surprised about the constant war over there since they obvioulsy choose to ignore how everybody else feels about their deeds.
If you do whatever you want and ignore what others say and then start whining that others don't support you, you just look like a little child that doesn't get it's way, the conservative way to deal with that would be a hard slap in the face...

[Idaho]

When was the quality of your weapons or winning a war a measure of morality?

Quite so

[Seamus Fermanagh]

By that standard, all of us -- save perhaps Costa Rica -- are all immoral bastards. All of our nations have waged wars, often aggressively and some without even a "fig-leaf" to hide behind.

The only "moral" stance would be passive defense and letting the other guy kill you -- only using violence in a limited fashion and only when there existed virtually no possibility of any non-combatant taking the chop. That's as close to "never" as possible.

So, Idaho, your stance seems to boil down to -- no, you have never stated such in so many words -- "Israel should quit and cede political control to the Palestinians." That's even less likely then my "go passive" odd new approach suggestion.

[KukriKhan]

By that standard, all of us -- save perhaps Costa Rica -- are all immoral bastards. All of our nations have waged wars, often aggressively and some without even a "fig-leaf" to hide behind.

The only "moral" stance would be passive defense and letting the other guy kill you -- only using violence in a limited fashion and only when there existed virtually no possibility of any non-combatant taking the chop. That's as close to "never" as possible.

So, Idaho, your stance seems to boil down to -- no, you have never stated such in so many words -- "Israel should quit and cede political control to the Palestinians." That's even less likely then my "go passive" odd new approach suggestion.

Indeed, we are all... or have been, immoral bastards.

So the question is: who's job is it to solve this problem; stop this seemingly wanton killing? Israel? US? Palestine? Iran?

Idaho seems to think that absent US military hardware and support, Israel would crumble militarily. That might be a valid point.

I humbly posit that it is on the Palestinian people, those folks who feel oppressed, to get bold, throw off the yoke of perceived oppression, declare themselves an independent people, and form their own country.

Write a declaration of independence. Ignore and refuse any and all aid from their oppressors. Form a government, declare borders, fly a flag, issue a currency, form an army, construct a police force, hold verifiable elections, and so on and so on.

What's with waiting to be given freedom? It is not given. It is taken. Asserted. Assumed. Those 'inalienable' thingees a smart guy wrote about a few years back.

Wanna see US public opinion, and gov't policy change in a week? Try that.

Ditch the rockets and mortar fire. That's teeanage and tribal get-even stuff.

In this idiot's opinion.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

In sales terms, Kukri's plan would be labeled an "assumptive close." Don't ask, don't worry about vengeance, start your own place and make it stick. You might be able to sell that on the "street" since, in practice, it would involve quite a lot of bloodletting. A good bit of scrupulous attention to hit military and police targets only and they might even get foreign intervention and the like. It would certainly be harder for the USA to continue support if there were more guerilla and less terrorist targeting choices.

[CountArach]

By that standard, all of us -- save perhaps Costa Rica -- are all immoral bastards. All of our nations have waged wars, often aggressively and some without even a "fig-leaf" to hide behind.

Glad to see we agree...

[rasoforos]

Well, what can you do when they're hiding behind civilians? Israel did the best it could with what it had.

So its not surgical anymore? Because they were surgical hits in your latest post. Now its the civilians to blame?

So basically if a nuclear bomb demolishes a city to take out a police station would be fine because its hiding behind civilians...

Look, statistically speaking if you bomb a building and kill 20 people, at least one of them is bound to be a policeman, civil servant, suspected militant or there are rumors that a hidden ammo stockpile is there, or an enemy official might pass from that point etc etc. If you approve large scale bombing civilian structures just because a 'valid target' might be there then you pretty much approve any carpet bomging action including 9/11 as well. So what's it gonna be? Double standards?

[Husar]

9/11 was pretty much a surgical strike, hit exactly what was targeted and didn't damage much else, in that way the terrorists seem to have an edge over the western world as it is.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I humbly posit that it is on the Palestinian people, those folks who feel oppressed, to get bold, throw off the yoke of perceived oppression, declare themselves an independent people, and form their own country.

Write a declaration of independence. Ignore and refuse any and all aid from their oppressors. Form a government, declare borders, fly a flag, issue a currency, form an army, construct a police force, hold verifiable elections, and so on and so on.

What's with waiting to be given freedom? It is not given. It is taken. Asserted. Assumed. Those 'inalienable' thingees a smart guy wrote about a few years back.

Interesting idea, but impractical beyond theory.

To start: Where? Even Antarctica is claimed. Any part of the current Middle East is part of someone's territory, and that someone is likely to take a dim view of the declaration. You have a few pointed sticks and some imported mortars/rockets. They have state of the art military hardware supplied by the world's superpower. If you fight for your freedom and choice of land, does that make you a warrior of freedom in George Washington's image, or a terrorist?

Second: You need to feed and service your people. Thus farmland and probably access to the coast for trade would be a plan. So, return to point one. Where are you? Surrounded on all sides by a military machine refusing to allow you trade across your borders? A nice little camp on the fringes of the Sahara (or abandonded desert of choice) like Polisario (who declared the independence of Western Sahara in the 70's and have since been really newsworthy).

Third: Form public institutions with what? I can easily create my own currency, but without recognition from others, it's just paper or tin. I can arm my butler but his viciously sharpened slice of mango is not going to help him much if another government refuses me legitimacy.

To bring it back home, Ireland "declared" freedom from England 800 years back. Took us a very nasty series of wars and eventually even nastier terrorism to establish that freedom beyond theory. Even the independence of the United States depended much more on an ocean, global politics and the French than merely writing one of the most magnificent documents of human history.

The Palestinians represented by Hamas have de facto, declared the independent homeland you advocate. They have been ignored, and so fight, as the colonists of the States did, against their oppressors. They represent values that their oppressors despise, just as the British despised the liberty-mongers. And just as the Founding Fathers would, had the word been in vogue, have been called terrorists, the Palestinians are vilified.

Israel itself was founded on terrorism, murder and violence. They had the advantage that they fought against the British Empire in decline, which did not have the stomach for mass reprisals. One might have thought then, that the Palestinian cause, however poorly prosecuted (and it must be recognised that the commitments, however rhetorical, to Israel's ultimate demise make a huge stumbling block) would attract more approval from the American people.

[FactionHeir]

Well sourced account of the whole ordeal so far:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decembe...rip_airstrikes
(Read the 8:46 version)

One thing that hasn't been talked about much is the killing of police. I'm interested in my fellow Backroomers' take on killing police officers, who IMO are clearly civilians.

What strikes me the most, however, is the report in the Dec 30th section where the Israelis have agreed that Hamas non military targets are being attacked, such as sports centers, kinder gartens and the like to undermine support for Hamas by destroying all their infrastructure and social institutions that serve the populace.
While certainly a blow to the political organization, to me it clearly is an act of vandalism if not terrorism to give the green light for such atrocities, especially as there is a very high risk of civilians being killed with such attacks and just about no chance that a Hamas militant will die in those strikes (though now anyone who seems even affiliated with Hamas seems to be a "legitimate" target now).

[Furunculus]

That's some of the best input in this thread. well said.

odd, i thought rvg's response to that statement to be far closer to the truth:

Maybe so. I would argue though that Israel cannot afford to have a less aggressive stance given past and present actions of its neghbors and the Palestinians. Arab states ganged up on Israel in 3 separate wars and 3 times they went home crying. It's time to stopthe stupid and pointless violence (aka rocket attacks) and start building a peaceful future. Fatah is led by the pragmatists and technocrats who understand that, while Hamas is ruled solely by warmongers who only understand the most widely understood language on Earth. And Israel is more than happy to speak that language whenever the opportunity presents itself. Regardless of its origin Israel is here to stay. The sooner Hamas stops the violence the better off its people would be.

[rory_20_uk]

Interesting. A state who'se borders are controlled by a foreign, hostile power, who'se resources are sinilarly controlled and who continue to take parcels of land should just unilaterally play nice - and hope that Israel stops chocking the life out of the place. If they're lucky the military incursions, illegal fences, artillery and missile attacks might also stop!

Israel has all the cards. The rocket attacks due next to nothing. Unlike the Palestinians they have radar and alarms. They could open the borders, let food and supplies into the territories, hell, even give the land back that even their courts state is stolen. This would neither destabilise Israel, but it would give palestinians a future to live for, and stop them being seen as a bully. Rockets are getting though with the embargo of almost everything. it's not like Hamas are going to get sent Stinger missile batteries or the odd nuke, is it?

[Tribesman]

One thing that hasn't been talked about much is the killing of police. I'm interested in my fellow Backroomers' take on killing police officers, who IMO are clearly civilians.

No they are not civilians , they work for the government , Hamas is the government so all government workers are terrorists .
All we have to do now is wait for Israel to repeat its statement that there are no civilians like it used when it bombed the hell out of Lebanon .
But look on the bright side , at least they ain't using cluster bombs on towns and villages yet .
Then again didn't they nearly exhaust their supplies of those munitions last time and have a slight problem with America getting embarassed about donating more to the cause of freedom ?

[rory_20_uk]

It's Bush's last few days (thank God). I'm sure that the Military can get some over there on his say-so, and by the time they're dropping them it'll be Obama in the White House.

[Ironside]

One thing that hasn't been talked about much is the killing of police. I'm interested in my fellow Backroomers' take on killing police officers, who IMO are clearly civilians.

Depends, police officers are civilians (although often associated with the goverment, thus often targeted due to that), but I'm not sure if Hamas is using them as gendarmes (well, rather as the exact opposite). That (police forces that is also intended to be used as military forces) would be a legimite target.

Don't know the original wording by Hamas, but they are often translated to be security forces, thus atleast implying that they have other purposes as well. If that's Hamas or the translators I don't know.

[Hooahguy]

The rocket attacks due next to nothing.

but is it the right of a country to defend its citizens? the rockets dont do nothing. they terrorize, destroy property, and kill. i doubt where you live, rockets fall every day or bombs drop from planes. you cant say they do nothing. they do something. living in fear is horrible. but of course its easy for us to say israel should absorb it, but how do you think that makes the people of Sderot, who are under rocket attacks daily, feel? i think right now they feel great becasue the IAF is doing something.
it is the right of every country to defend its citizens from acts of aggression, no matter what.

[rory_20_uk]

A very emotional take. Doesn't help much though, does it? Northern Ireland was not sorted out by sending in tanks / SAS / Commandoes to kill indiscriminately. I don't imagine that this will help in Palestine.

The phrase "no matter what" of course means that other lives are worthless compared to those in your own country.

[Hooahguy]

A very emotional take. Doesn't help much though, does it? Northern Ireland was not sorted out by sending in tanks / SAS / Commandoes to kill indiscriminately. I don't imagine that this will help in Palestine.

The phrase "no matter what" of course means that other lives are worthless compared to those in your own country.

but countries have a duty to protect their citizens, no?

btw when i say "no matter what" i mean no matter what public opinion or what the UN says.

[Hooahguy]

Jerusalem is only the capital of Israel in the minds of people who ignore everybody else's thoughts on the matter. Such people should not be surprised about the constant war over there since they obvioulsy choose to ignore how everybody else feels about their deeds.

no, i believe that its the capital of israel, and i dont ignore your opinions. i read them, and i think most are valid points, not including this one. that doesnt make me dumb or blind to the matter- i realize that israel has done some pretty apprehensible things, but i believe that they were done for the betterment of the state.

[Hooahguy]

No its not by anyone outside of israel.

fixed it for ya. but realize that saying "anyone" you mean governments, not people. im sure there are many all over the world who say that jeruslaem is the capital of israel.

I'm pretty sure Tel Aviv is meant to be that capitol of Israel but after the war Israel decided to keep the city as their little war trophy. In reality as the original partition suggests Jerusalem should be a U.N administrated neutral city but hey, Israel just thought they'd keep it. Jerusalem shouldn't even be in their hands but hey as the ruling Israelis would say "land, land , land."

not a trophy. in jerusalem is the holiest site in judaism, the western wall. considering the UN is pretty inept, do you think that they would keep it an international city? i think not. most likely jews and arabs would be shooting at each other while the UN peace keepers would stand down, since they havent been fired upon. at least thats what they did in Rwanda, AFAIK.

Of course we don't think it belongs to Israel, Palestinians had to go through metal detectors to enter the second holiest mosque in Islam. Not only that, but they were massacred in it.
Frankly, I don't put the whole blame on Israel due to what happened recently, just most of it. I admire the fact that a single Israeli is enough for them to go crazy. At least they're not sitting on their asses while their brothers are being massacred.

you forget that before israel was established jews, to visit THE HOLIEST site in Judaism they had to pass through hostile arabs neighborhoods, and one Rosh HAshanah, the jewish new year, they were massacred by arabs at the Western Wall. btw i thought the Masjid Al-Aqsa was the THIRD most holy site to islam.

Hey man, give peace a chance.

let hamas give peace a chance first.

Wrong. The attacks were a consequence, not a cause. The problems began when the UN created a country where it shouldn't have created, and illegitimately, because by doing so, they'd have to create a bucketload more of countries whose people also want independence. If, instead of Israel, there had been a joint Arab-Jew Palestine, then there would have been no attack. But the jews wanted a country of their own, where they wouldn't have to share power with the arabs.

how could it be joint-arab jew if a bit before that there were riots on both sides against the other? the people at the UN recognized this. it wasnt as if they were living in peace only until Israel was created. the result was that former Palestine was split up into two, and jordan was given as a whole to the palestinians.

Israel is an apartheid state founded on ethnic cleansing. On top of which it is aggressive and expansionist and has killed over 3000 Palestinians in the last few years. It isn't that suprising that it gets a hundred or so casualties from Palestinian attacks. They are just lucky in their enemies. The Palestinian strategy is stuck in a losing rut.

really? i idnt see any death camps for palestinians.
nor do i see them aggressively expanding as of now. if they were, wed have syria, lebabnon, jordan and id wager much of egypt.

and if the palestinians were in a losing rut, wouldnt it make sense for them to lay down their arms. oh wait- thats unreasonable to ask of hamas.
i guarantee you that if the palestinians would lay down their arms, israel would to. they would live peacefully together if the arabs stopped aiming for our destruction.

[rory_20_uk]

The West bank is a concentration camp: borders sealed, little food in. Random deaths from outside with no warning. I imagine that when the ground offensive starts for many it will be a death camp.

[Hooahguy]

The West bank is a concentration camp: borders sealed, little food in. Random deaths from outside with no warning. I imagine that when the ground offensive starts for many it will be a death camp.

um, no its not. IMO, comparing the west bank to concentration camps is incedibly offensive to me and those who have lost ancestors to the nazis.

[seireikhaan]

let hamas give peace a chance first.

That's just being lazy. As Israel holds about 97% of the chips in this, the onus is on them to be the better man and "give peace a chance". If Israel adopted a pacifist, ultra-defensive approach, not launching air strikes, not blockading some one million people into a tiny little patch of utterly undesirable land, and the Palestinians continue their rocket attacks for a prolonged period, THEN you can say that Hamas must give peace a chance.

[rory_20_uk]

um, no its not. IMO, comparing the west bank to concentration camps is incedibly offensive to me and those who have lost ancestors to the nazis.

Concentration camps happened elsewhere you know. South Africa, Cuba, Russia to name a few. People are being concentrated in an area

Are you referring to the extermination camps? This is a comparison I did not make.

Your indignation doesn't alter that this IMO is a fair comparison. I'm not going to let past events influence how I react to todays occurences. Israel / Jews don't get carte blanche based on one terrible episode under the one regime however horriffic it was.

[rasoforos]

um, no its not. IMO, comparing the west bank to concentration camps is incedibly offensive to me and those who have lost ancestors to the nazis.

Imagine how offensive Israel's actions are to the people who gave their lives so your ancestors were able to survive to have descendants.

With closed borders, restriction in water electricity etc the palestinian areas are concentration camps. There is no escape from Gaza.

A few days ago a ship carrying aid, doctors and journalists was rammed by the Israeli navy in international waters just because it was heading for Gaza. Israel makes a point about maximizing the suffering of civilians.

The current state of Gaza does draw Holocaust parallels. Denying it is happening draws its own parallels too.

[rvg]

That's just being lazy. As Israel holds about 97% of the chips in this, the onus is on them to be the better man and "give peace a chance". If Israel adopted a pacifist, ultra-defensive approach, not launching air strikes, not blockading some one million people into a tiny little patch of utterly undesirable land, and the Palestinians continue their rocket attacks for a prolonged period, THEN you can say that Hamas must give peace a chance.

Nah. Israel is not in the business of being "a better man". Israel is in the business of defending its citizens, since unlike Hamas, Israel actually values the lives of its people. If being a "better man" means sitting dily and letting Hamas cause trouble, then screw it. Toothless morality is worthless morality. Let Hamas cry victim and wait out the offensive in bunkers. They can have that moral high ground (if one indeed could call it that), while Israel will be satisfied with having the land and the power. The bottomline is that Hamas does not care about the lives of the people it rules over. To Hamas, the Gazan population is merely expendable cattle that can be sacrificed for perceived political gains. Israel might be the regional boogeyman, but at least it cares about its own people, something that Hamas would be wise to replicate.

[FactionHeir]

and if the palestinians were in a losing rut, wouldnt it make sense for them to lay down their arms. oh wait- thats unreasonable to ask of hamas.
i guarantee you that if the palestinians would lay down their arms, israel would to. they would live peacefully together if the arabs stopped aiming for our destruction.

Except that it doesn't work. If all Palestinians laid down their arms, they wouldn't be welcomed into Israel because then Jews would be the minority rather than the majority. And they don't exactly want that last I checked. So the Palestinians would for the most part be deported off their rightful land and a few integrated as second class citizens.

[Fragony]

Imagine how offensive Israel's actions are to the people who gave their lives so your ancestors were able to survive to have descendants.

With closed borders, restriction in water electricity etc the palestinian areas are concentration camps. There is no escape from Gaza.

A few days ago a ship carrying aid, doctors and journalists was rammed by the Israeli navy in international waters just because it was heading for Gaza. Israel makes a point about maximizing the suffering of civilians.

The current state of Gaza does draw Holocaust parallels. Denying it is happening draws its own parallels too.

Called a blockade perfectly normal in wartime, and it is a good thing the Palestinians have something to think about. I would imagine that the people surviving the holocaust would be blessed with a very keen sense for survival and Israel shows it does without being anything near what the nazi's were trying to establish. Again: sooooooooooooooooooooo soooooooo unfair give them nosy's a break already if they would be anything remotely like the nazi's there wouldn't be any arabs.

[FactionHeir]

Nah. Israel is not in the business of being "a better man". Israel is in the business of defending its citizens, since unlike Hamas, Israel actually values the lives of its people. If being a "better man" means sitting dily and letting Hamas cause trouble, then screw it. Toothless morality is worthless morality. Let Hamas cry victim and wait out the offensive in bunkers. They can have that moral high ground (if one indeed could call it that), while Israel will be satisfied with having the land and the power. The bottomline is that Hamas does not care about the lives of the people it rules over. To Hamas, the Gazan population is merely expendable cattle that can be sacrificed for perceived political gains. Israel might be the regional boogeyman, but at least it cares about its own people, something that Hamas would be wise to replicate.

Actually, as I said previously, the "international" community and Israel boycotted and blockaded Gaza once Hamas won their democratic elections because of their social institutions and because they cared for the people. They didn't even fire a rocket at that time until no aid came in and attacks on them continued.

Besides, they kept the 6 month cease fire fairly well and did what they could to enforce it. Read the wiki article I linked to.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Logistics, not tactics.....Israel is doomed to a slow spiral into dissolution.

1. They are grossly outnumbered and the native resources of the arab states around them are greater than those Israel can bring to bear. This places Israel in a long-term "behind the 8-ball" situation. To date, Israel has maintained an "edge" anyway by leveraging other factors.

2. Part of the edge Israel maintains despite this inequity of native resources is a result of US support. Efforts by various political elements throughout the West and throughout much of the Muslim world to decouple the US and Israel will bear increasing fruit as America's demographics change. Dwindling support will leave Israel on its own and that is a losing game in terms of resources.

3. Another part is the Israeli hyper-patriot doctrine coming out of the kibbutz era. This sense of patriotism and its "us" mentality is being eroded from within. Israel's "force multipliers" vis-a-vis the resource inequity are fading -- without a replacement on the horizon.

4. Palestinian motivation shows little signs of wavering or atenuating itself.


Suggested implications:


A. Removing US resources will result in the destruction of Israel, though not quite so quickly nor cleanly as Rory implies. The Israeli will to win is the component that can counteract this.

B. Israel itself is losing the will to win in the face of the horrific cost of victory -- terrorism is working in that it has shifted the primary focus of warfare onto the civilian populations -- and Israel is held to a different standard of behavior than is its opposition (by the Western media, by common morality).

C. Israel is progressively being placed into a forced choice scenario by its terror-tactic opponents: Lose or butcher everybody in the opposition (and I mean everybody -- a desert called peace).



As I don't believe that Israel is capable of eradicating the Palestinians, I must conclude that Israel will dwindle and, ultimately, dissolve. The Jews will be a minority ruled by arabs and there will be no uniquel Jewish state.




Stray thoughts:

The warlords are winning this one. One more joyous step towards barbarism.