Israel/Palestine... Why?

[Hooahguy]

im not an apologist for israel. i criticize israel on many things. just not the things which we discuss here. if we got into a discussion on israeli politics..... then id be on tribesmans side, at least i think.

but yes, this is the verdun of backroom.

[Hooahguy]

I'm serious about this... I'm really curious regardless of your stance, whether you have any marginal hope or belief that you might actually influence anyone's views on this issue, and if so, what supports you in that delusion?

i have no hope that tribesman, idaho, or bopa will change their views.
but i do, as Seamus Fermanagh said, take satisfaction in telling the word what i think.

let me be clear about something. i am both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian. i want a Palestinian country to live peacefully side-by-side with Israel. i do not want the destruction of the Palestinian people. i want them to live and prosper, but live peacefully. that, by my definition, as well as people like Alan Dershowitz, and im sure many others, that is the definition of being pro-Palestinian.
if you support Palestinians in taking violence against israel, you are not working for the betterment of the Palestinians.

[Andres]

My viewpoint is not in the poll.

I think both sides are in the wrong.



EDIT: HoreTore was faster... I'm getting old and rusty

[Don Corleone]

HoreTore, do you really think a one-state solution, with a Palestinian majority, would allow for Jewish residents? A bit off topic for this particular thread, but by saying one-secular state, you're saying Palestine only, no more Jews, whether you intend to or not.

Andres, I think you fall under Gah. Sorry.

[LittleGrizzly]

someone else mentioned it in the other thread, an idea to stop the majority lording over the minority.... you could use a few methods, one would be to require something like 75% to pass legislation, it would stop any bad laws getting passed and mean coalition goverment and compromise is the only way to govern.... maybe we should have this discussion back over in the other topic ?

[Andres]

HoreTore, do you really think a one-state solution, with a Palestinian majority, would allow for Jewish residents? A bit off topic for this particular thread, but by saying one-secular state, you're saying Palestine only, no more Jews, whether you intend to or not.

How about a (con)federal state, with protection of minority rights written in the constitution? And certain mechanisms when deciding to change certain issues (listed in the constitution, e.g. said minority rights), like a qualified majority (for example 1/2 +1 in each "group" and 2/3 in the whole parliament)?

Andres, I think you fall under Gah. Sorry.

I feel... excluded.

[Don Corleone]

How about a (con)federal state, with protection of minority rights written in the constitution? And certain mechanisms when deciding to change certain issues (listed in the constitution, e.g. said minority rights), like a qualified majority (for example 1/2 +1 in each "group" and 2/3 in the whole parliament)?

This is kind of off-topic, as Little Grizzly politely hinted, but I'm sorry, I can't resist. There are no protections you could put into the Consitution that the Palestinians wouldn't override on day 3. If they didn't have the votes, enough Jordanians, Syrians Lebanese, et. al. would enter the new secular state, register to vote, and swell the ranks until they had the votes, assuming folks like Hamas would waste their time with following Constitutions in the first place.

Any one-state solution means death/displacement to all Jews in Israel. Period.

[Andres]

This is kind of off-topic, as Little Grizzly politely hinted, but I'm sorry, I can't resist. There are no protections you could put into the Consitution that the Palestinians wouldn't override on day 3. If they didn't have the votes, enough Jordanians, Syrians Lebanese, et. al. would enter the new secular state, register to vote, and swell the ranks until they had the votes, assuming folks like Hamas would waste their time with following Constitutions in the first place.

Any one-state solution means death/displacement to all Jews in Israel. Period.

Well, if a majority in each group and 2/3d in the entire parliament (cumulative conditions) is needed, then it doesn't matter how large the arab group is.

It works for Belgium

[HoreTore]

This is kind of off-topic, as Little Grizzly politely hinted, but I'm sorry, I can't resist. There are no protections you could put into the Consitution that the Palestinians wouldn't override on day 3. If they didn't have the votes, enough Jordanians, Syrians Lebanese, et. al. would enter the new secular state, register to vote, and swell the ranks until they had the votes, assuming folks like Hamas would waste their time with following Constitutions in the first place.

Why do you only mention the palestinian crazies as the people who would break such a constitution? Do you really think the jewish settlers would somehow magically stop their arab-killing ways?

In order for such a state to come about, there would undoubtedly be tensions. But I really can't see how there would be more than there already is. The IDF would still be as strong, and it should be quite capable of protecting both sides.

[Furunculus]

How about a (con)federal state, with protection of minority rights written in the constitution? And certain mechanisms when deciding to change certain issues (listed in the constitution, e.g. said minority rights), like a qualified majority (for example 1/2 +1 in each "group" and 2/3 in the whole parliament)?

hmmm, sounds like................ belgium, but with suicide bombings and white phosherous too. no thanks.

[edit]

more seriously:

there is no common polity therefore there can be no true nation of citizens.

as i said in another thread:

My point is that a representative polity functions precisely because the individual delegates responsibility to a political class to act in their name. The individual must therefore take responsibility for the actions committed in his name, and does so in sound conscience because the community have a sufficient pool shared values that decisions made are likely to reflect the will of the individual.

[/edit]

[drone]

I don't believe any other topic fits the Gah! option better. ftw.

[HoreTore]

HoreTore, do you really think a one-state solution, with a Palestinian majority, would allow for Jewish residents? A bit off topic for this particular thread, but by saying one-secular state, you're saying Palestine only, no more Jews, whether you intend to or not.

PAH! A proper police should help iron out the idiots on both sides, ie. the settlers and Hamas. You don't see many attacks from the arabs living inside Israel, do you? Why are they capable of living in peace, but those who have lived with bombings all their life are not? If anything, it should be the other way around. I'm more than confident that there are enough moderates on both sides to make a state. There would be some tension with the idiots, but I can't see it being more than there already is.

And I'm sorry, if you can't make a state including the original inhabitants(the palestinians), then you can't make a state. Pure and simple.

[ajaxfetish]

And I'm sorry, if you can't make a state including the original inhabitants(the palestinians), then you can't make a state. Pure and simple.

Maybe give them a modicum of self-government, call them the Palestinian Nation, and set up a Bureau of Palestinian Affairs to manage relationships with them? Then you could relocate them to reservations in the Negev desert so you could use any quality land they happen to have.

Ajax

[HoreTore]

Maybe give them a modicum of self-government, call them the Palestinian Nation, and set up a Bureau of Palestinian Affairs to manage relationships with them? Then you could relocate them to reservations in the Negev desert so you could use any quality land they happen to have.

Ajax

Uhm..... That would be the current situation....

Any solution to the problem in the middle-east would have to allow the palestinians the right to return to their land, the land stolen from them. Nothing else will last.

[ajaxfetish]

Uhm..... That would be the current situation....

Any solution to the problem in the middle-east would have to allow the palestinians the right to return to their land, the land stolen from them. Nothing else will last.

I'm just saying, some of us may have put states together in the past without including the original inhabitants.

Ajax

[Furunculus]

I voted with israel but this statement sums me up perfectly too:

let me be clear about something. i am both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian. i want a Palestinian country to live peacefully side-by-side with Israel. i do not want the destruction of the Palestinian people. i want them to live and prosper, but live peacefully.

[Don Corleone]

I support a strong, autonomous, healthy and prosperous Palestine. I just believe it has to be along side, living in peaceful harmony with Israel. . I have nothing against the Palestinians, and I do not begrudge them their own prosperous, soevereign state. But I am coming to believe that is not what they want for themselves.

[master of the puppets]

GAH!!! which palestinians do you expect me to support. I support those getting shelled by the isrealis, those crushed to death by falling buildings or horribly burning because there was a member of hamas in their building. but i don't support the men who fire rockets into isreali towns. i support those who lost their homes, their ancestral lands to the jews. but i do not support those that will kill children to reclaim them.

and who among the isrealis am i to support? i would gladly support those who want a peaceful resolution. those who advocate talks, and those small few harmed by hamas. but i cannot condone the generals who want to drop tons of explosives. those who attack schools, blow up homes. kill indescriminatly and destroy thousands of pounds of food meant to feed the impovershed.

[Tribesman]

not very surprising that most neo-nazi's vote for the SP

Fragony you really are out of the loop since your old "lets beat up immigrants" days , why not visit some of those nice dutch neo-nazi websites and see how happy the scum there are that the Israelis are confronting the muslim menace .
You will see Frag that they have the same "muslims gonna getya" line of errrrrrr......"thought" that you exhibit .

I know Idaho and Tribesman are always going to agree with the Palestinians.

Its not that I agree with the Palestinians Don , its just that those who are most vocal in support of Israel are usually the ones with gaping great holes in their arguements which are easier to rip apart .

[ajaxfetish]

I really can't bring myself to support either side. I don't think moving arguments would be enough to change that; it'll require an improvement in the maturity and compassion of the leadership of one or both groups.

Ajax