Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 75

Thread: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

  1. #1
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin Death Trip
    Posts
    15,754

    Angry Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    John Yoo, a fat little academic largely notable for writing pro-torture opinions (including the classic President-may-crush-a-child's-testicles argument) repudiated by all men of sense, wrote a lovely op-ed piece for the WSJ in which he claims that torture is teh bomb and that Obama will kill us all:

    Eliminating the Bush system will mean that we will get no more information from captured al Qaeda terrorists. Every prisoner will have the right to a lawyer (which they will surely demand), the right to remain silent, and the right to a speedy trial.

    So true! So true! Has anyone else noticed how the only way we obtain information is through torture? That's why the police never obtain confessions ever, and why out criminal courts never convict. It's because they don't torture. The FBI's empathetic system of interrogation? Useless!

    It is naïve to say, as Mr. Obama did in his inaugural speech, that we can "reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals."

    So true! Out Constitution is hopelessly naive, frankly. The first, second, and fifth amendments are all kind of hippie-dippie, while we're at it. Free speech? Pshaw. Arm the populace? What kind of Cuban Revolutionary silliness is that? Ideals exist to be pushed aside when you're feeling nervous. That's their function.

    And last but not least, if we get hit again, it's all because the Obama-Antichrist went all soft on torture, which is like a magic pixie dust that protects us at all times until it doesn't.

    But in his decisions taken so precipitously just two days after the inauguration, Mr. Obama may have opened the door to further terrorist acts on U.S. soil by shattering some of the nation's most critical defenses.

    Why, exactly, isn't this man bring brought up for war crimes? Is it because we're "looking forward," as the various wimps from the Obama administration like to say? Here's a thought -- how about I shoot a guy on the street, and then argue in my trial that it's time to look forward, not back. That would be morally equivalent.

    Another take on Torture Boy's self-adulating editorial.
    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them ... well, I have others." — Groucho Marx

  2. #2
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    In ur nun, causing a bloody schism!
    Posts
    7,906

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    What's with all the lolz catz thread titles?

    Teh torture:

    On the advice of his intelligence advisers, the president could have authorized coercive interrogation methods like those used by Israel and Great Britain in their antiterrorism campaigns. (He could even authorize waterboarding, which he did three times in the years after 9/11.)
    Wow, three times huh?
    Last edited by Vladimir; 01-30-2009 at 13:35.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  3. #3
    Senior Member Senior Member naut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    9,103

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Muppet.
    #Hillary4prism

    BD:TW

    Some piously affirm: "The truth is such and such. I know! I see!"
    And hold that everything depends upon having the “right” religion.
    But when one really knows, one has no need of religion. - Mahavyuha Sutra

    Freedom necessarily involves risk. - Alan Watts

  4. #4
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    10,415

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoo
    The question Mr. Obama should have asked right after the inaugural parade was: What will happen after we capture the next Khalid Sheikh Mohammed or Abu Zubaydah? Instead, he took action without a meeting of his full national security staff, and without a legal review of all the policy options available to meet the threats facing our country.
    How does he know that? That such meeting/review did not take place?

    Because they didn't invite him?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoo
    ...Mr. Obama may have opened the door to further terrorist acts on U.S. soil...
    Getting his bid in now for an "I TOLD YOU SO!" moment, anywhere down the line.

    I'm just stunned this guy came out of Berkeley.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Wow, three times huh?
    Wow 3 times , that means he is a habitual so its life in prison without parole

  6. #6
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin Death Trip
    Posts
    15,754

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    Wow, three times huh?
    Yeah, I'm really sure that only three people were tortured during the entire "enhanced interrogation techniques" program. I'm sure that's why about 100 detainees have died, and "according to the U.S. military’s own classifications, 34 of these cases are suspected or confirmed homicides."

    Upon re-reading the WSJ piece, it's increasingly clear that Yoo is concerned about going to jail. If I were in his shoes, I certainly wouldn't vacation in Europe anytime soon.
    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them ... well, I have others." — Groucho Marx

  7. #7
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Grand Duchy of Yorkshire
    Posts
    8,632

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    On the advice of his intelligence advisers, the president could have authorized coercive interrogation methods like those used by Israel and Great Britain in their antiterrorism campaigns. (He could even authorize waterboarding, which he did three times in the years after 9/11.)
    That would be the sensory deprivation tank/white noise thingy then. It didn't do the UK all that good. Along with locking people up without charge or due process, all it did was help the Republican cause by acting as a recruiting sergeant. When will these whackos ever learn that torture is counter- productive?
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

  8. #8
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    12,014

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    When will these whackos ever learn that torture is counter- productive?
    Well, we've known it since the Romans.... I'd give "the challenged people" a couple of thousand years more.

    What's more, is that the reasoning used to justify this, is that they are terrorists... Uhm... Yes, that's why Bush has released a bunch of them, not because a lot of them were completely innocent. It's a good thing we always trust our government to be both prosecutor, judge and jury!

    Separation of power? Get a job, lousy hippie!!

    EDIT: Oh, and I nominate the OP for Post of the Year. Well done, Lemur!
    Last edited by HoreTore; 01-30-2009 at 16:32.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  9. #9
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Moral High Grounds
    Posts
    9,226

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Yoo and Addington definitely need to take a trip to Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    I'm just stunned this guy came out of Berkeley.
    His law degree is from Yale, BA from Harvard. He just works at Berkeley. I guess the truly amazing thing is that they gave him a job there. He must be really popular in that town.
    The .Org's MTW Reference Guide Wiki - now taking comments, corrections, suggestions, and submissions

    If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
    Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat

    "Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur

  10. #10
    Senior Member Senior Member naut's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    9,103

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    That would be the sensory deprivation tank/white noise thingy then.
    Yep. Not something anyone would want to experience, but no doubt better (if torture, can ever really be better) than the R2I methods often used by US forces.
    #Hillary4prism

    BD:TW

    Some piously affirm: "The truth is such and such. I know! I see!"
    And hold that everything depends upon having the “right” religion.
    But when one really knows, one has no need of religion. - Mahavyuha Sutra

    Freedom necessarily involves risk. - Alan Watts

  11. #11
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,902

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    That would be the sensory deprivation tank/white noise thingy then. It didn't do the UK all that good. Along with locking people up without charge or due process, all it did was help the Republican cause by acting as a recruiting sergeant. When will these whackos ever learn that torture is counter- productive?
    Counterproductive? Name any other method that gives 100% signation of these pre-written confessions and prove my value on capturing a lot of terrorists and also without any innocent captures. It is also a fine, proven method to convince American soldiers about the evils of capitalism and the true glory of communism.

    Now if you excuse me, it's pretty obvious that Mr. Yoo is in fact a terrorists, working for Iran, North Korea, Colombia, Cuba, China, Russia and a few others we haven't figured out yet. But fear not brave Americans, soon we will have Mr. Yoo's written confession on the matter and will also unwind the net which he's the spider in, threatening the freedom of USA.
    Last edited by Ironside; 01-30-2009 at 18:10.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

    Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
    Activity Recorded M.Y. 2302.22467
    TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED

  12. #12
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,602

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    Counterproductive? Name any other method that gives 100% signation of these pre-written confessions and prove my value on capturing a lot of terrorists and also without any innocent captures. It is also a fine, proven method to convince American soldiers about the evils of capitalism and the true glory of communism.

    Now if you excuse me, it's pretty obvious that Mr. Yoo is in fact a terrorists, working for Iran, North Korea, Colombia, Cuba, China, Russia and a few others we haven't figured out yet. But fear not brave Americans, soon we will have Mr. Yoo's written confession on the matter and will also unwind the net which he's the spider in, threatening the freedom of USA.
    While they're at it, can they nail him for the Jack the Ripper murders as well?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    While they're at it, can they nail him for the Jack the Ripper murders as well?
    No , Khalid Sheikh Mohammed already confessed to that .
    I think Yoo should be persuaded to confess that he was the iceberg and say that he really regrets that more imperialist era pigs didn't die when he deliberately rammed the titanic.....oh and when he says the word pigs he has to squeal it or he is back off for more educational recreation exercises .

  14. #14
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin Death Trip
    Posts
    15,754

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Another take on the Yoo editorial:

    I’ve followed John Yoo and his writings with some care for a while now, and I think I finally understand what this is about. Namely, a pending probe by the Justice Department’s Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR) is looking at serious ethical issues surrounding the issuance of Yoo’s legal opinions.

    But the OPR probe is far from Yoo’s only or even most pressing worry. The likelihood that he will face a criminal probe and then possibly prosecution is growing. Susan J. Crawford, the Cheney protege tapped as the senior Bush Administration official to oversee the Guantánamo military commissions, publicly admitted in an interview with Bob Woodward, that at least one of the detainees had been tortured through the application of an interrogation regime that had been approved by the White House. In their exit interviews, both President Bush and Vice President Cheney were emphatic that in authorizing torture, they relied on the advice of their lawyers, meaning John Yoo. But in the ultimate act of ingratitude, Bush left office without issuing the anticipated blanket pardons to his torture team. NATO allies and United Nations officials are reminding the new Obama Administration that it has a solemn obligation under article 4 of the Convention Against Torture to begin a criminal investigation into how the United States came to use torture as a matter of official policy. And public opinion has changed, with a clear majority of Americans now favoring a probe into the Bush Administration’s use of torture techniques.

    Yoo cannot be oblivious to all of this. And indeed, his column in the Wall Street Journal and his presentations elsewhere tell us exactly what the defense will be. At its core is the argument that, no matter how mistaken, John Yoo acted in good faith when he issued the torture memoranda. He truly, sincerely believes the analysis of law that is presented in those memos.
    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them ... well, I have others." — Groucho Marx

  15. #15
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Grand Duchy of Yorkshire
    Posts
    8,632

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    Counterproductive? Name any other method that gives 100% signation of these pre-written confessions and prove my value on capturing a lot of terrorists and also without any innocent captures. It is also a fine, proven method to convince American soldiers about the evils of capitalism and the true glory of communism.

    Now if you excuse me, it's pretty obvious that Mr. Yoo is in fact a terrorists, working for Iran, North Korea, Colombia, Cuba, China, Russia and a few others we haven't figured out yet. But fear not brave Americans, soon we will have Mr. Yoo's written confession on the matter and will also unwind the net which he's the spider in, threatening the freedom of USA.
    Brainwashing not torture. Although a moot point.
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

  16. #16

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Brainwashing not torture. Although a moot point.
    One can lead to another pretty fast though...
    When it occurs to a man that nature does not regard him as important and that she feels she would not maim the universe by disposing of him, he at first wishes to throw bricks at the temple, and he hates deeply the fact that there are no bricks and no temples
    -Stephen Crane

  17. #17
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    11,338

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Of course Yoo is writing a piece in support of the tactics he outlined. To do otherwise would be suicidal either figuratively (because charges would be brought) or literally (because he would then be wallowing in self loathing.


    It strikes me that those decrying the use of torture are too willing to believe that it never works. If the only point were an exercise in sadism, it would not have been used with the frequency it has been throughout history. That said, it is clear that as an interrogation tool it has numerous limitations -- foremost being that some subjects (most?) will say anything to avoid the pain and thereby render the point moot.

    For the most part, our interrogators have chosen NOT to use such harsh methods because they were no more (and often were viewed as less) likely to generate the needed results. That is why waterboarding was authorized so rarely. If it would not generate intelligence better/more quickly, then what would be the point?


    Morally, of course, there are numerous people who view any interrogation method beyond simple questioning as torturous. If that is your basic moral stance, than few governments around the world -- if any -- would win "points" from you. The use of waterboarding would be anathema and, for those with this perspective, no better than a rack and hot irons.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  18. #18

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Morally, of course, there are numerous people who view any interrogation method beyond simple questioning as torturous.
    The problem there Seamus is that the US calls waterboarding torture if it is used by others , so it isn't a question of what other people think morally it is what the US calls it itself .

  19. #19
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin Death Trip
    Posts
    15,754

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    For the most part, our interrogators have chosen NOT to use such harsh methods because they were no more (and often were viewed as less) likely to generate the needed results. That is why waterboarding was authorized so rarely.
    Actually, it's very, very hard to get any hard numbers on when torture was used and when it was not. Even in cases where we know "enhanced interrogation" (what an Orwellian turn of phrase) was used, the evidence seems to go missing. It's also impossible to read the decisions behind "enhanced interrogation" as a policy. Here's a partial list of missing memos. If you're going to accept the Bush administration's assertion that they only waterboarded three people, then I have a bridge I would like to sell you. No, seriously, it's a wonderful bridge in excellent condition.

    Your question about why the military would engage in torture is a good one. Turns out they were following orders, as good soldiers should.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Morally, of course, there are numerous people who view any interrogation method beyond simple questioning as torturous.
    I call strawman. This is the exact smokescreen that has been thrown up around this issue since day one. "Oh, some Berkley hippies don't want us to say mean things to terrorists." That and the "What is torture, anyway?" line of obfuscation that we have heard unendingly from various pro-authoritarians.

    Read up on Susan Crawford, and then get back to me about how "numerous people" (I'd like to meet them, what with them being so numerous) are defining anything after hot cocoa and a blankie as torture.

    The top Bush administration official in charge of deciding whether to bring Guantanamo Bay detainees to trial has concluded that the U.S. military tortured a Saudi national who allegedly planned to participate in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, interrogating him with techniques that included sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, nudity and prolonged exposure to cold, leaving him in a "life-threatening condition."

    "We tortured [Mohammed al-]Qahtani," said Susan J. Crawford, in her first interview since being named convening authority of military commissions by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates in February 2007. "His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case" for prosecution.

    What fun! Not only do we get to torture people, but afterward it means we can't prosecute them. Double bonus!
    Last edited by Lemur; 01-31-2009 at 03:20.
    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them ... well, I have others." — Groucho Marx

  20. #20
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Latibulm mali regis in muris.
    Posts
    11,338

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Your question about why the military would engage in torture is a good one. Turns out they were following orders, as good soldiers should.
    I've spoken with a couple of different JAG officers who, when queried by the Bush administration, responded that any method not then sanctioned for use by the military should NOT be employed. They were NOT happy with the policy which ultimately developed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    I call strawman. This is the exact smokescreen that has been thrown up around this issue since day one. "Oh, some Berkley hippies don't want us to say mean things to terrorists." That and the "What is torture, anyway?" line of obfuscation that we have heard unendingly from various pro-authoritarians.
    I don't play the strawman game. My point was that many people in the USA, and probably greater numbers in Europe, think that many of the procedures used in the "harsh methods" interrogations were torture and should not have been used. A much smaller subset believes that anyone involved with those techniques should be prosecuted. I don't believe I ever resorted to the hot cocoa hyperbole level -- though some right wing pundits certainly have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur[indent
    The top Bush administration official in charge of deciding whether to bring Guantanamo Bay detainees to trial has concluded that the U.S. military tortured a Saudi national who allegedly planned to participate in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, interrogating him with techniques that included sustained isolation, sleep deprivation, nudity and prolonged exposure to cold, leaving him in a "life-threatening condition."

    "We tortured [Mohammed al-]Qahtani," said Susan J. Crawford, in her first interview since being named convening authority of military commissions by Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates in February 2007. "His treatment met the legal definition of torture. And that's why I did not refer the case" for prosecution.[/indent]

    What fun! Not only do we get to torture people, but afterward it means we can't prosecute them. Double bonus!
    Of COURSE any information gained through torture or near-torture methods cannot be used in a court of law. What may generate information in intelligence terms will almost certainly NOT pass the reasonable doubt test. If you are going to go that route, you must expect that any subsequent prosecution will fail, so you either have to execute the detainee or release her/him -- so the information gained better have been worth it.
    Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 01-31-2009 at 05:27.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  21. #21
    Friend of Lady Luck Member Mooks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    1,290

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Not to mention that forcing someone to listen to 4+ hours of Britney Spears and crappy nationalistic country songs is horrible .

    trying to lighten the conversation.did it work?
    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i love the idea that angsty-teens can get so spazzed out by computer games that they try to rage-rape themselves with a remote.

  22. #22
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Norway
    Posts
    12,014

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    It strikes me that those decrying the use of torture are too willing to believe that it never works. If the only point were an exercise in sadism, it would not have been used with the frequency it has been throughout history.
    Torture is a wonderful thing indeed, though only for two things:

    1. To terrorize a population. If someone does something you don't want them to, then torturing him is a good way to deter any others thinking about doing said thing. Someone stirring up trouble in the lower classes? Chop him to pieces alive in front of the rest of the population, and they'll be too afraid to do anything.

    2. To make someone confess to something. And it's irrelevant whether it's true or not. Want Galileo to say that the earth is the centre of the solar system? Burn his toes until he says it, he will eventually.

    Both of these have been and are of great benefit to despots and tyrants everywhere. We like to think that our democratically elected overlords don't have the same need, however...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  23. #23
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,902

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    Brainwashing not torture. Although a moot point.
    Well, the "enhanced interogation techniques" are coming from a program developed to resist brainwashing (the breakdown process involves torture)...
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

    Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7
    Activity Recorded M.Y. 2302.22467
    TERMINATION OF SPECIMEN ADVISED

  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wokingham
    Posts
    3,523

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    I think Yoo should be persuaded to confess that he was the iceberg and say that he really regrets that more imperialist era pigs didn't die when he deliberately rammed the titanic.....oh and when he says the word pigs he has to squeal it or he is back off for more educational recreation exercises .” Err, we have unsolved crimes in France… Do you think he can tell us why he did it?

    Brainwashing is not torture”. I interviewed for my studies (French Indochina Wars) a former Prisoner (3 years in Camp). It is not only Brainwashing. Brainwashing works with deprivation of sleep, hard work and repetitive action, senseless on purpose, you do without question any more…
    And of course a system of rewards and punishment (rewards being more food and punishment 1 week in a very small cage), promises of speed-up freedom if you comply and accept the rules…

    To terrorize a population”. Didn’t work on my Grand Parents… They carried on in blowing German Trains to the sky. And killing German Soldiers, and French militias…
    Just made they more determined in the Anti-Nazi/barbarians fight… And prove them right in their fight...

    To make someone confess to something” Well, if you approach with this hot poker, give my the Yellow Pages, I will denounce all of them…
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  25. #25
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin Death Trip
    Posts
    15,754

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    My point was that many people in the USA, and probably greater numbers in Europe, think that many of the procedures used in the "harsh methods" interrogations were torture and should not have been used.
    Now I really don't understand. When you say "harsh methods," what are you referring to? "Enhanced interrogation"? Because many of the methods employed under "Enhanced Interrogation" have already been classified as torture on many occasions, often by us. We declared waterboarding to be a war crime in 1947, for example. Does that fall under your "harsh methods" category? If so, is there any reason to debate whether or not torture has been employed? If so, why?

    We also prosecuted Nazi officials who employed "Verschärfte Vernehmung," which means -- wait for it -- "Enhanced Interrogation." The methods (and the euphemisms) are quite strikingly similar:

    Between 1942 and 1945, Bruns used the method of "verschärfte Vernehmung" on 11 Norwegian citizens. This method involved the use of various implements of torture, cold baths and blows and kicks in the face and all over the body.

    I can just hear a German equivalent to Limbaugh declaring on the radio that "cold baths" and some kicks do not constitute anything more than vigorous information-gathering. Oh and guess what? The Norwegians in question were not in uniform, so the Nazis attempted the same defense used when we classify detainees as beyond the reach of the Geneva Conventions.

    Anyway, maybe you could clarify the position you're taking, as I'm not quite getting it.
    Last edited by Lemur; 01-31-2009 at 14:17.
    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them ... well, I have others." — Groucho Marx

  26. #26
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    10,415

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Seamus can, of course, speak for himself, and far more eloquently than I. Yet:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    is there any reason to debate whether or not torture has been employed? If so, why?
    I don't see anything in his response that debates whether or not torture has been employed. My read of his words revealed something more along the lines of:

    "Once it was discovered that torture MIGHT have been employed, many US citizens (and prominent ones, like the latest Repub potus nominee) and europens as well, said it should not be used."
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  27. #27
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin Death Trip
    Posts
    15,754

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    I don't see anything in his response that debates whether or not torture has been employed.
    My response makes sense in light of Seamus' earlier statement:
    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Morally, of course, there are numerous people who view any interrogation method beyond simple questioning as torturous. If that is your basic moral stance, than few governments around the world -- if any -- would win "points" from you.
    ... which does not bear any resemblance to your summation, "Once it was discovered that torture MIGHT have been employed, many US citizens (and prominent ones, like the latest Repub potus nominee) and europens as well, said it should not be used."
    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them ... well, I have others." — Groucho Marx

  28. #28
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    10,415

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    I see. You meant an earlier quote than the one you used. O.K.

    And now, not being a qualified dental technician, I'll quit stuffing my words into other people's mouths.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  29. #29
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin Death Trip
    Posts
    15,754

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    I see. You meant an earlier quote than the one you used.
    Close. I meant that his clarification did not illuminate any alternative meaning to his earlier statement. And now, I will dance the watusi.
    "Those are my principles, and if you don't like them ... well, I have others." — Groucho Marx

  30. #30
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Grand Duchy of Yorkshire
    Posts
    8,632

    Default Re: Torture Lawyer Sez: I Can Haz Waterboarding?

    Do you do it like this?
    There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.

    “Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”

    To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.

    "The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO