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Thread: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    The most comprehensive list of what the stimulus will be stimulating that I've seen:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    50 De-Stimulating Facts
    Chapter and verse on a bad bill.

    By Stephen Spruiell & Kevin Williamson


    Senate Democrats acknowledged Wednesday that they do not have the votes to pass the stimulus bill in its current form. This is unexpected good news. The House passed the stimulus package with zero Republican votes (and even a few Democratic defections), but few expected Senate Republicans (of whom there are only 41) to present a unified front. A few moderate Democrats have reportedly joined them.

    The idea that the government can spend the economy out of a recession is highly questionable, and even with Senate moderates pushing for changes, the current package is unlikely to see much improvement. Nevertheless, this presents an opportunity to remove some of the most egregious spending, to shrink some programs, and to add guidelines where the initial bill called for a blank check. Here are 50 of the most outrageous items in the stimulus package:


    VARIOUS LEFT-WINGERY
    The easiest targets in the stimulus bill are the ones that were clearly thrown in as a sop to one liberal cause or another, even though the proposed spending would have little to no stimulative effect. The National Endowment for the Arts, for example, is in line for $50 million, increasing its total budget by a third. The unemployed can fill their days attending abstract-film festivals and sitar concerts.

    Then there are the usual welfare-expansion programs that sound nice but repeatedly fail cost-benefit analyses. The bill provides $380 million to set up a rainy-day fund for a nutrition program that serves low-income women and children, and $300 million for grants to combat violence against women. Laudable goals, perhaps, but where’s the economic stimulus? And the bill would double the amount spent on federal child-care subsidies. Brian Riedl, a budget expert with the Heritage Foundation, quips, “Maybe it’s to help future Obama cabinet secretaries, so that they don’t have to pay taxes on their nannies.”

    Perhaps spending $6 billion on university building projects will put some unemployed construction workers to work, but how does a $15 billion expansion of the Pell Grant program meet the standard of “temporary, timely, and targeted”? Another provision would allocate an extra $1.2 billion to a “youth” summer-jobs program—and increase the age-eligibility limit from 21 to 24. Federal job-training programs—despite a long track record of failure—come in for $4 billion total in additional funding through the stimulus.

    Of course, it wouldn’t be a liberal wish list if it didn’t include something for ACORN, and sure enough, there is $5.2 billion for community-development block grants and “neighborhood stabilization activities,” which ACORN is eligible to apply for. Finally, the bill allocates $650 million for activities related to the switch from analog to digital TV, including $90 million to educate “vulnerable populations” that they need to go out and get their converter boxes or lose their TV signals. Obviously, this is stimulative stuff: Any economist will tell you that you can’t get higher productivity and economic growth without access to reruns of Family Feud.

    Summary:
    $50 million for the National Endowment for the Arts
    $380 million in the Senate bill for the Women, Infants and Children program
    $300 million for grants to combat violence against women
    $2 billion for federal child-care block grants
    $6 billion for university building projects
    $15 billion for boosting Pell Grant college scholarships
    $4 billion for job-training programs, including $1.2 billion for “youths” up to the age of 24
    $1 billion for community-development block grants
    $4.2 billion for “neighborhood stabilization activities”
    $650 million for digital-TV coupons; $90 million to educate “vulnerable populations”



    POORLY DESIGNED TAX RELIEF
    The stimulus package’s tax provisions are poorly designed and should be replaced with something closer to what the Republican Study Committee in the House has proposed. Obama would extend some of the business tax credits included in the stimulus bill Congress passed about a year ago, and this is good as far as it goes. The RSC plan, however, also calls for a cut in the corporate-tax rate that could be expected to boost wages, lower prices, and increase profits, stimulating economic activity across the board.

    The RSC plan also calls for a 5 percent across-the-board income-tax cut, which would increase productivity by providing additional incentives to save, work, and invest. An across-the-board payroll-tax cut might make even more sense, especially for low- to middle-income workers who don’t make enough to pay income taxes. Obama’s “Making Work Pay” tax credit is aimed at helping these workers, but it uses a rebate check instead of a rate cut. Rebate checks are not effective stimulus, as we discovered last spring: They might boost consumption, a little, but that’s all they do.

    Finally, the RSC proposal provides direct tax relief to strapped families by expanding the child tax credit, reducing taxes on parents’ investment in the next generation of taxpayers. Obama’s expansion of the child tax credit is not nearly as ambitious. Overall, his plan adds up to a lot of forgone revenue without much stimulus to show for it. Senators should push for the tax relief to be better designed.

    Summary:
    $15 billion for business-loss carry-backs
    $145 billion for “Making Work Pay” tax credits
    $83 billion for the earned income credit


    STIMULUS FOR THE GOVERNMENT
    Even as their budgets were growing robustly during the Bush administration, many federal agencies couldn’t find the money to keep up with repairs—at least that’s the conclusion one is forced to draw from looking at the stimulus bill. Apparently the entire capital is a shambles. Congress has already removed $200 million to fix up the National Mall after word of that provision leaked out and attracted scorn. But one fixture of the mall—the Smithsonian—dodged the ax: It’s slated to receive $150 million for renovations.

    The stimulus package is packed with approximately $7 billion worth of federal building projects, including $34 million to fix up the Commerce Department, $500 million for improvements to National Institutes of Health facilities, and $44 million for repairs at the Department of Agriculture. The Agriculture Department would also get $350 million for new computers—the better to calculate all the new farm subsidies in the bill (see “Pure pork” below).

    One theme in this bill is superfluous spending items coated with green sugar to make them more palatable. Both NASA and NOAA come in for appropriations that properly belong in the regular budget, but this spending apparently qualifies for the stimulus bill because part of the money from each allocation is reserved for climate-change research. For instance, the bill grants NASA $450 million, but it states that the agency must spend at least $200 million on “climate-research missions,” which raises the question: Is there global warming in space?

    The bottom line is that there is a way to fund government agencies, and that is the federal budget, not an “emergency” stimulus package. As Riedl puts it, “Amount allocated to the Census Bureau? $1 billion. Jobs created? None.”

    Summary:
    $150 million for the Smithsonian
    $34 million to renovate the Department of Commerce headquarters
    $500 million for improvement projects for National Institutes of Health facilities
    $44 million for repairs to Department of Agriculture headquarters
    $350 million for Agriculture Department computers
    $88 million to help move the Public Health Service into a new building
    $448 million for constructing a new Homeland Security Department headquarters
    $600 million to convert the federal auto fleet to hybrids
    $450 million for NASA (carve-out for “climate-research missions”)
    $600 million for NOAA (carve-out for “climate modeling”)
    $1 billion for the Census Bureau


    INCOME TRANSFERS
    A big chunk of the stimulus package is designed not to create wealth but to spread it around. It contains $89 billion in Medicaid extensions and $36 billion in expanded unemployment benefits—and this is in addition to the state-budget bailout (see “Rewarding state irresponsibility” below).

    The Medicaid extension is structured as a temporary increase in the federal match, but make no mistake: Like many spending increases in the stimulus package, this one has a good chance of becoming permanent. As for extending unemployment benefits through the downturn, it might be a good idea for other reasons, but it wouldn’t stimulate economic growth: It would provide an incentive for job-seekers to delay reentry into the workforce.

    Summary:

    $89 billion for Medicaid
    $30 billion for COBRA insurance extension
    $36 billion for expanded unemployment benefits
    $20 billion for food stamps


    PURE PORK
    The problem with trying to spend $1 trillion quickly is that you end up wasting a lot of it. Take, for instance, the proposed $4.5 billion addition to the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers budget. Not only does this effectively double the Corps’ budget overnight, but it adds to the Corps’ $3.2 billion unobligated balance—money that has been appropriated, but that the Corps has not yet figured out how to spend. Keep in mind, this is an agency that is often criticized for wasting taxpayers’ money. “They cannot spend that money wisely,” says Steve Ellis of Taxpayers for Common Sense. “I don’t even think they can spend that much money unwisely.”

    Speaking of spending money unwisely, the stimulus bill adds another $850 million for Amtrak, the railroad that can’t turn a profit. There’s also $1.7 billion for “critical deferred maintenance needs” in the National Park System, and $55 million for the preservation of historic landmarks. Also, the U.S. Coast Guard needs $87 million for a polar icebreaking ship—maybe global warming isn’t working fast enough.

    It should come as no surprise that rural communities—those parts of the nation that were hardest hit by rampant real-estate speculation and the collapse of the investment-banking industry—are in dire need of an additional $7.6 billion for “advancement programs.” Congress passed a $300 billion farm bill last year, but apparently that wasn’t enough. This bill provides additional subsidies for farmers, including $150 million for producers of livestock, honeybees, and farm-raised fish.

    Summary:

    $4.5 billion for U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
    $850 million for Amtrak
    $87 million for a polar icebreaking ship
    $1.7 billion for the National Park System
    $55 million for Historic Preservation Fund
    $7.6 billion for “rural community advancement programs”
    $150 million for agricultural-commodity purchases
    $150 million for “producers of livestock, honeybees, and farm-raised fish”


    RENEWABLE WASTE

    Open up the section of the stimulus devoted to renewable energy and what you find is anti-stimulus: billions of dollars allocated to money-losing technologies that have not proven cost-efficient despite decades of government support. “Green energy” is not a new idea, Riedl points out. The government has poured billions into loan-guarantees and subsidies and has even mandated the use of ethanol in gasoline, to no avail. “It is the triumph of hope over experience,” he says, “to think that the next $20 billion will magically transform the economy.”

    Many of the renewable-energy projects in the stimulus bill are duplicative. It sets aside $3.5 billion for energy efficiency and conservation block grants, and $3.4 billion for the State Energy Program. What’s the difference? Well, energy efficiency and conservation block grants “assist eligible entities in implementing energy efficiency and conservation strategies,” while the State Energy Program “provides funding to states to design and carry out their own energy efficiency and renewable energy programs.”

    While some programs would spend lavishly on technologies that are proven failures, others would spend too little to make a difference. The stimulus would spend $4.5 billion to modernize the nation’s electricity grid. But as Robert Samuelson has pointed out, “An industry study in 2004—surely outdated—put the price tag of modernizing the grid at $165 billion.” Most important, the stimulus bill is not the place to make these changes. There is a regular authorization process for energy spending; Obama is just trying to take a shortcut around it.

    Summary:
    $2 billion for renewable-energy research ($400 million for global-warming research)
    $2 billion for a “clean coal” power plant in Illinois
    $6.2 billion for the Weatherization Assistance Program
    $3.5 billion for energy-efficiency and conservation block grants
    $3.4 billion for the State Energy Program
    $200 million for state and local electric-transport projects
    $300 million for energy-efficient-appliance rebate programs
    $400 million for hybrid cars for state and local governments
    $1 billion for the manufacturing of advanced batteries
    $1.5 billion for green-technology loan guarantees
    $8 billion for innovative-technology loan-guarantee program
    $2.4 billion for carbon-capture demonstration projects
    $4.5 billion for electricity grid


    REWARDING STATE IRRESPONSIBILITY

    One of the ugliest aspects of the stimulus package is a bailout for spendthrift state legislatures. Remember the old fable about the ant and the grasshopper? In Aesop’s version, the happy-go-lucky grasshopper realizes the error of his ways when winter comes and he goes hungry while the industrious ant lives on his stores. In Obama’s version, the federal government levies a tax on the ant and redistributes his wealth to the party-hearty grasshopper, who just happens to belong to a government-employees’ union. This happens through something called the “State Fiscal Stabilization Fund,” by which taxpayers in the states that have exercised financial discipline are raided to subsidize Democratic-leaning Electoral College powerhouses—e.g., California—that have spent their way into big trouble.

    The state-bailout fund has a built-in provision to channel the money to the Democrats’ most reliable group of campaign donors: the teachers’ unions. The current bill requires that a fixed percentage of the bailout money go toward ensuring that school budgets are not reduced below 2006 levels. Given that the fastest-growing segment of public-school expense is administrators’ salaries—not teachers’ pay, not direct spending on classroom learning—this is a requirement that has almost nothing to do with ensuring high-quality education and everything to do with ensuring that the school bureaucracy continues to be a cash cow for Democrats.

    Setting aside this obvious sop to Democratic constituencies, the State Fiscal Stabilization Fund is problematic in that it creates a moral hazard by punishing the thrifty to subsidize the extravagant. California, which has suffered the fiscal one-two punch of a liberal, populist Republican governor and a spendthrift Democratic legislature, is in the worst shape, but even this fiduciary felon would have only to scale back spending to Gray Davis–era levels to eliminate its looming deficit. (The Davis years are not remembered as being especially austere.) Pennsylvania is looking to offload much of its bloated corrections-system budget onto Uncle Sam in order to shunt funds to Gov. Ed Rendell’s allies at the county-government level, who will use that largesse to put off making hard budgetary calls and necessary reforms. Alaska is looking for a billion bucks, including $630 million for transportation projects—not a great sign for the state that brought us the “Bridge to Nowhere” fiasco.

    Other features leap out: Of the $4 billion set aside for the Community Oriented Policing Services—COPS—program, half is allocated for communities of fewer than 150,000 people. That’s $2 billion to fight nonexistent crime waves in places like Frog Suck, Wyo., and Hoople, N.D.

    The great French economist Frédéric Bastiat called politics “the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.” But who pays for the state bailout? Savers will pay to bail out spenders, and future generations will pay to bail out the undisciplined present.

    In sum, this is an $80 billion boondoggle that is going to reward the irresponsible and help state governments evade a needed reordering of their financial priorities. And the money has to come from somewhere: At best, we’re just shifting money around from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, robbing a relatively prudent Cheyenne to pay an incontinent Albany. If we want more ants and fewer grasshoppers, let the prodigal governors get a little hungry.

    Summary:
    $79 billion for State Fiscal Stabilization Fund


    What a colossal waste.

    CR
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    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    You boys like Mex-ee-co??!!??
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 02-06-2009 at 03:04.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    VARIOUS LEFT-WINGERY
    He may have a point and all, I mean I'm against supporting companies with taxpayer money as well, but the above quote makes it all look rather stupid anyway, I mean, can't some guys write an analysis without "giving it to the other side" again?
    Can't be bothered to read it now at 3am but if you're against the package, I support you anyway.
    Don't really remember who here was actually for that package, weren't most against or undecided?

    Or maybe that was the bailout, but I'm sure they're more or less the same anyway.
    Last edited by Husar; 02-06-2009 at 03:07.


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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Pork goes in sausages. Not politics.

    Someone should finance a cooking-class for the US congress...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    It's from the National Review, a partisan organ that pretty much exists to aid the Republican Party. They're good at what they do, but hopelessly slanted. We aren't going to have an intelligent or enlightening discussion based purely on their spin.
    Last edited by Lemur; 02-06-2009 at 03:08.

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    Kanto Kanrei Member Marshal Murat's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    15 billion for boosting Pell Grant college scholarships
    Hellz yea!
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    Have you just been dumped?

    I ask because it's usually something like that which causes outbursts like this, needless to say I dissagree completely.

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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Just as long as they pass the bill soon I need that Pell Grant money.
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    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review




    Thuy're takin' our tax dollerz!
    It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then, the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by seireikhaan View Post



    Thuy're takin' our tax dollerz!
    Actually, no.

    They're taking your children's tax dollars
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Member Member Alexander the Pretty Good's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    It's from the National Review, a partisan organ that pretty much exists to aid the Republican Party. They're good at what they do, but hopelessly slanted. We aren't going to have an intelligent or enlightening discussion based purely on their spin.
    It's not that hard to see through the partisanship. Look at the allocations and decide whether it's as evil as they say it is. Unless you're asserting that they're making it up out of whole cloth.

    I'd say most of the things on the list probably won't directly stimulate the economy. They deserve a fair vote in a non-emergency piece of legislation.

    But whatever. NJ's (hopefully) getting some money for the "stupid states that can't control spending" section. So screw you guys.
    Last edited by Alexander the Pretty Good; 02-06-2009 at 06:27.

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    It's from the National Review, a partisan organ that pretty much exists to aid the Republican Party. They're good at what they do, but hopelessly slanted. We aren't going to have an intelligent or enlightening discussion based purely on their spin.
    Oh come on. Not even a try to debate? Now even the National Review is worthless? The article has a list of various programs and causes the money is going to, something I've not seen elsewhere.

    But instead of even daring to respond when the lead is a fiscally conservative viewpoint, you just launch some ad hominems and abandon the thread.

    Un-*******-believable.

    Thanks to the people who, astonishingly, were able to deal with an article not written by someone with identical politics.

    Actually, no.

    They're taking your children's tax dollars
    Well put. Not many people are going to go out and spend when they know this is a one time rebate and we'll be taxed more in the future.

    CR
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    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Un-*******-believable.

    Thanks to the people who, astonishingly, were able to deal with an article not written by someone with identical politics.
    Sorry, CR. However, you're not going to convince me with an article that uses the phrase "various left-wingery". I'm not saying the stimulus is even remotely perfect. Not by a long shot. But don't even dare pretend that was some kind of neutral analysis.
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    Now even the National Review is worthless?
    Feel free to show me where I said that they were "worthless."

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    The article has a list of various programs and causes the money is going to, something I've not seen elsewhere.
    Unfortunately, the source is purely partisan, so I would honestly need a corroborating source before I would accept their accounting. These are the same people who proudly cited a Congressional Budget Office report that turned out not to exist. That was a week ago. To quote St. Reagan, "Trust but verify."

    As I said, they're very good at what they do, but what they do has nothing no bearing on trying to get at the truth of any subject. They exist to aid a particular side in politics. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's naive to treat them like a normal news source.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    But instead of even daring to respond when the lead is a fiscally conservative viewpoint, you just launch some ad hominems and abandon the thread.
    "Fiscally conservative"? Say wha? If NR were fiscally conservative, would they not have been so under the Bush Administration as well? And yet I remember them being rather muted about the trillion dollar yearly deficit developed under The Decider. That suggests that they are fiscal conservatives only when Democrats are in power. As I said, they are not about reaching any sort of truth, but rather about helping their side to win.

    Ad hominem would mean that I'm attacking a person instead of an idea. How is it ad hominem to point out, accurately, that National Review is a purely partisan organ? Please explain.

    As for the actual topic, the stimulus/pork bill, I find it a very hard subject to approach with a useful perspective. Obama is betting that Keynesian theories will put the brakes on the downward spiral, but in truth those theories have never been tested. So we're looking at a trillion-dollar gamble on an unproved economic theory. Also, the Congressional Dems have larded up the bill, which only serves to confuse the issue, and was strategically idiotic of them.

    On the other hand, I don't hear any reasonable counter-proposal coming from any cohesive group. Republicans saying "tax cuts!" strike me as borderline ridiculous; perhaps if some economist could make a proper argument for their "tax cuts will solve anything" position, I'd understand it better.

    Here's an interesting take from Bruce Bartlett:

    The problem is that fiscal stimulus needs to be injected right now to counter the liquidity trap. If that were the case, I think we might well get a very high multiplier effect this year. But if much of the stimulus doesn't come online until next year, when we are likely to be past the worst of the slowdown, then crowding out will greatly diminish the effectiveness of the stimulus, just as the critics argue...

    Thus the argument really boils down to a question of timing. In the short run, the case for stimulus is overwhelming. But in the longer run, we can't enrich ourselves by borrowing and printing money. That just causes inflation.

    The trick is to front-load the stimulus as much as possible while putting in place policies that will tighten both fiscal and monetary policy next year.

    How we actually accomplish that is way beyond my fiscal/economic understanding. But it certainly sounds reasonable.

    As for this "we're robbing our children" outrage: I understand it, and I'm sympathetic to it, but where the **** were you people for the last eight years as a Republican president loaded us up with a yearly trillion-dollar deficit? Is it just me, or are you being freakishly selective?
    Last edited by Lemur; 02-06-2009 at 18:18. Reason: For some reason half of my post is not showing up. I can see it in edit mode, but not in the finished product. Freaky.

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    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Obama is betting that Keynesian theories will put the brakes on the downward spiral, but in truth those theories have never been tested.

    from wiki article

    But to many the true success of Keynesian policy can be seen at the onset of World War II, which provided a kick to the world economy, removed uncertainty, and forced the rebuilding of destroyed capital. Keynesian ideas became almost official in social-democratic Europe after the war and in the U.S. in the 1960s.

    Keynesian economics have basically been used in the west since 1945, sure you can argue about the effectiveness of keynesian economics but his theories have been widely applied and thus tested... your argument may hold more water if you concentrate on the fact they haven't been tested on this scale..

    Since ww2 very few countries have actually followed a free market route such as that advocated by smith, the IMF has put various countries into a smith style economic system, but if you look at the vast majority of countries (or developed ones at least, less sure about 2nd and 3rd world ones) they practice keynesian economics...
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly View Post
    your argument may hold more water if you concentrate on the fact they haven't been tested on this scale..
    Fair enough; point taken.

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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    As for this "we're robbing our children" outrage: I understand it, and I'm sympathetic to it, but where the **** were you people for the last eight years as a Republican president loaded us up with a yearly trillion-dollar deficit? Is it just me, or are you being freakishly selective?
    Hey hey hey!

    I was right here in Norwayland laughing my behind off, thankyouverymuch! The reason I'm laughing now isn't because you're spending money, I think that's a good thingy. I'm laughing because nobody wants to pay for all that spending...

    Cut the pork, raise the tax, I say!
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Going through that budget review of your then CR, some starting notes though. I will mention some stuff that at least sounds fair, that I agree in this context are pork. You really need to fix that porking system generally, for both parties. I do also not know much about the reputation of some organisations due to lack of info and will thus mainly focus on the things posted.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The idea that the government can spend the economy out of a recession is highly questionable, and even with Senate moderates pushing for changes, the current package is unlikely to see much improvement.
    To paraphrase: "I wouldn't support a Keynesian theory in any case", which isn't exatly the best start to reviewing a Keynesian stimulance package, but fair enough I guess, as it haven't really been properly tested (but are very popular world wide atm)

    Here are 50 of the most outrageous items in the stimulus package:
    So what was left out? There's a few houndred milliards (billions for you Americans) missing.

    VARIOUS LEFT-WINGERY
    Thanks to Some stuff here vill be named VARIOUS RIGHT-WINGERY (VRW for short)

    The easiest targets in the stimulus bill are the ones that were clearly thrown in as a sop to one liberal cause or another, even though the proposed spending would have little to no stimulative effect. The National Endowment for the Arts, for example, is in line for $50 million, increasing its total budget by a third. The unemployed can fill their days attending abstract-film festivals and sitar concerts.
    Pork, true. But the VRW here is notable. Take the music industry for example, not many bands outside the mainstream can support themself on thier music. But I guess that counts as sitar concerts...

    Then there are the usual welfare-expansion programs that sound nice but repeatedly fail cost-benefit analyses. The bill provides $380 million to set up a rainy-day fund for a nutrition program that serves low-income women and children, and $300 million for grants to combat violence against women. Laudable goals, perhaps, but where’s the economic stimulus? And the bill would double the amount spent on federal child-care subsidies. Brian Riedl, a budget expert with the Heritage Foundation, quips, “Maybe it’s to help future Obama cabinet secretaries, so that they don’t have to pay taxes on their nannies.”
    2 first goes as pork (well rather long term investments to reduce crime). The third one? Child care subsides, as in kindergarten and simular? As in a place to keep your child while the parents are working? Countered by a useless VRW.

    Perhaps spending $6 billion on university building projects will put some unemployed construction workers to work, but how does a $15 billion expansion of the Pell Grant program meet the standard of “temporary, timely, and targeted”? Another provision would allocate an extra $1.2 billion to a “youth” summer-jobs program—and increase the age-eligibility limit from 21 to 24. Federal job-training programs—despite a long track record of failure—come in for $4 billion total in additional funding through the stimulus.
    Focus on education keeps people inside schools (thus not taking jobs that doesn't exist atm) and gives them something that can be useful when the job market thaws. It's not really aimed at created jobs true but reducing an excess of workers when it's a job shortage is very simular.

    Of course, it wouldn’t be a liberal wish list if it didn’t include something for ACORN, and sure enough, there is $5.2 billion for community-development block grants and “neighborhood stabilization activities,” which ACORN is eligible to apply for.
    I take it they don't like ACORN. True it's long term investment (they are focusing on fixing "ghettoes" if I understand ACORN correctly), thus counts as pork here.

    Finally, the bill allocates $650 million for activities related to the switch from analog to digital TV, including $90 million to educate “vulnerable populations” that they need to go out and get their converter boxes or lose their TV signals. Obviously, this is stimulative stuff: Any economist will tell you that you can’t get higher productivity and economic growth without access to reruns of Family Feud.
    Real pork. Should be funded by the TV companies that basically force the switch.


    POORLY DESIGNED TAX RELIEF
    The stimulus package’s tax provisions are poorly designed and should be replaced with something closer to what the Republican Study Committee in the House has proposed. Obama would extend some of the business tax credits included in the stimulus bill Congress passed about a year ago, and this is good as far as it goes. The RSC plan, however, also calls for a cut in the corporate-tax rate that could be expected to boost wages, lower prices, and increase profits, stimulating economic activity across the board.
    NOT BIG ENOUGH TAX CUT!!!!!! No puns, but obvious VRW

    The RSC plan also calls for a 5 percent across-the-board income-tax cut, which would increase productivity by providing additional incentives to save, work, and invest. An across-the-board payroll-tax cut might make even more sense, especially for low- to middle-income workers who don’t make enough to pay income taxes. Obama’s “Making Work Pay” tax credit is aimed at helping these workers, but it uses a rebate check instead of a rate cut. Rebate checks are not effective stimulus, as we discovered last spring: They might boost consumption, a little, but that’s all they do.
    Let me give you a secret. The falling economy is because of too litte consumption caused by bank failures, house market bubble and the stockmarket crash. This is supposed to increase the consumption, thus make those consumerism wheels run again.

    Finally, the RSC proposal provides direct tax relief to strapped families by expanding the child tax credit, reducing taxes on parents’ investment in the next generation of taxpayers. Obama’s expansion of the child tax credit is not nearly as ambitious. Overall, his plan adds up to a lot of forgone revenue without much stimulus to show for it. Senators should push for the tax relief to be better designed.
    NOT BIG ENOUGH TAX CUT!!!!!! No puns, but obvious VRW. Gets even better, as it's a long term investment = counts as pork here => Republicans saying NOT ENOUGH PORK!!!!


    [
    B]STIMULUS FOR THE GOVERNMENT[/B]
    Even as their budgets were growing robustly during the Bush administration, many federal agencies couldn’t find the money to keep up with repairs—at least that’s the conclusion one is forced to draw from looking at the stimulus bill. Apparently the entire capital is a shambles. Congress has already removed $200 million to fix up the National Mall after word of that provision leaked out and attracted scorn. But one fixture of the mall—the Smithsonian—dodged the ax: It’s slated to receive $150 million for renovations.

    The stimulus package is packed with approximately $7 billion worth of federal building projects, including $34 million to fix up the Commerce Department, $500 million for improvements to National Institutes of Health facilities, and $44 million for repairs at the Department of Agriculture. The Agriculture Department would also get $350 million for new computers—the better to calculate all the new farm subsidies in the bill (see “Pure pork” below).
    Hard to say if this is needed or not, but as employing construction workers counts as stimulus it's fine. I can do that too

    Counts as pork though.

    One theme in this bill is superfluous spending items coated with green sugar to make them more palatable. Both NASA and NOAA come in for appropriations that properly belong in the regular budget, but this spending apparently qualifies for the stimulus bill because part of the money from each allocation is reserved for climate-change research. For instance, the bill grants NASA $450 million, but it states that the agency must spend at least $200 million on “climate-research missions,” which raises the question: Is there global warming in space?
    Counts as pork. But that big thingy that gives us heat lies in space (I keep it to that, there's more though), which raises the question: Can the article writers come up with puns that doesn't fall apart immidiatly?

    The bottom line is that there is a way to fund government agencies, and that is the federal budget, not an “emergency” stimulus package. As Riedl puts it, “Amount allocated to the Census Bureau? $1 billion. Jobs created? None.”
    OMG, I can agree on something here. Still the catchy VRW falls apart if Cencus Bureu employs anybody for the money.

    INCOME TRANSFERS
    A big chunk of the stimulus package is designed not to create wealth but to spread it around. It contains $89 billion in Medicaid extensions and $36 billion in expanded unemployment benefits—and this is in addition to the state-budget bailout (see “Rewarding state irresponsibility” below).

    The Medicaid extension is structured as a temporary increase in the federal match, but make no mistake: Like many spending increases in the stimulus package, this one has a good chance of becoming permanent. As for extending unemployment benefits through the downturn, it might be a good idea for other reasons, but it wouldn’t stimulate economic growth: It would provide an incentive for job-seekers to delay reentry into the workforce.
    True, not part of the intent of the bill, thus pork. Mainly based on a igeological differance. And the thesis that everything temporal is always ending up permanent. Not without point, but for the authors sake I hope they haven't been pushing for temporary tax cuts.

    PURE PORK
    Will shorten it here. Some of is true pork and nothing belongs here.

    RENEWABLE WASTE
    Most of it will probably end up under the category pork (and some of it true pork), but almost every market shift will cost money during a transition period.


    REWARDING STATE IRRESPONSIBILITY
    Can't analyse enough here but a lot of it does seem like pork.


    Short ending, does it make you think? Yep. Should you use it as your single source? Hell no. Atleast it doesn't even pretend to be unbiased.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  18. #18
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Apparently we already overpaid the banks to the tune of $80 billion under Paulson and Bush. I seriously doubt we'll be able to get that money back. And they're still not making loans.

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    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Apparently we already overpaid the banks to the tune of $80 billion under Paulson and Bush. I seriously doubt we'll be able to get that money back. And they're still not making loans.
    You can't spell "Pilfer the Treasury" without T, A, R, and P.
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    It's from the National Review, a partisan organ that pretty much exists to aid the Republican Party. They're good at what they do, but hopelessly slanted. We aren't going to have an intelligent or enlightening discussion based purely on their spin.
    If those are the new rules around here, then kindly refrain from sharing stories from the Atlantic, Mother Jones, the Economist or other similar news contemplative magainzes from the other side.

    I mean really, Lemur. " Hello, Pot? This is Kettle. I just called to say 'You're Black!'" You post 'news' items from firedoglake.com, and you have the nerve to call National Review 'hoplessly slanted' and say that any discussion of their news items won't be intelligent.... Oh brother, where for art thou?
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 02-06-2009 at 19:20.
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    Apparently we already overpaid the banks to the tune of $80 billion under Paulson and Bush. I seriously doubt we'll be able to get that money back. And they're still not making loans.
    Isn't the reason the banks haven't been lending the TARP money because they were so underwater on their loans, even with the cash infusion, they're not meeting their reserve requirements?
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    Isn't the reason the banks haven't been lending the TARP money because they were so underwater on their loans, even with the cash infusion, they're not meeting their reserve requirements?
    I'm also of the opinion that many of us just plain don't want loans. We're being told the economy is in a tailspin- why would anyone in their right mind be expanding their business, buying a house or doing anything that would put them in more debt? Most of us are trying to hold onto what we have and preparing for the worst.

    Ironically, doing that only serves to make the economy perform even worse.
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    [K]indly refrain from sharing stories from [...] the Economist or other similar news contemplative magainzes from the other side.
    The Economist is from the "other side"? For real? Then what on earth is your side?

    I don't understand why people are getting so worked up about a plain statement of fact. All I said was that we (a) shouldn't base our discussion purely on that source, and (b) that I would need corroborating evidence before I took what they had to say as true.

    If I opened up a thread with nothing more than a long screed from Daily Kos, I expect you'd ask for backup as well.

    Check out any of the factual bits of what I've posted. It's all legitimate, and if it isn't I'll happily retract. Here's another source on the non-existent CBO report that NRO went on about.

    The truth of the matter is that the bailout and the stimulus are huge, complex things, and I'd like to hear actual experts talk about it, and try to get to some sort of picture of what's appropriate and what isn't; what's potentially effective versus ineffective. Bloviation about "Left-Wingery," kinda lowers the level of discourse right off the bat.

    Instead of eating your daily breakfast of outrage over my calling NRO exactly what it is, why not clue us in to what you think about the recession (depression?) and the various plans offered to bridge it.

    -edit-

    Oh, and Don, my links were to (in order): National Review, Washington Monthly, Wikipedia, Forbes, and now The Colorado Independent. If one of those sites is hosted by Firedoglake.com, I'm not aware of it.
    Last edited by Lemur; 02-06-2009 at 21:07.

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    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    Isn't the reason the banks haven't been lending the TARP money because they were so underwater on their loans, even with the cash infusion, they're not meeting their reserve requirements?
    That, and the fact that nobody put any restrictions on how the money had to be used, so they used it to buy up other banks and give out bonuses. With rock-bottom approval ratings and a long history of squandering any money allocated to the executive branch, Bush somehow was still able to browbeat a supposedly hostile Congress into giving up $350 billion with no oversight. I'm starting to think Bush was a political genius.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Or Congress is filled with idiots.
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    I'm also of the opinion that many of us just plain don't want loans. We're being told the economy is in a tailspin- why would anyone in their right mind be expanding their business, buying a house or doing anything that would put them in more debt? Most of us are trying to hold onto what we have and preparing for the worst.
    Uhm.... Most businesses operate on loans. Without being able to get new loans(to keep the old ones in check), they're suddenly unable to pay wages, order new materials, etc etc. In order words, they would face a full stop.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 02-06-2009 at 20:08.
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    The Economist is from the "other side"? For real? Then what on earth is your side?

    I don't understand why people are getting so worked up about a plain statement of fact. All I said was that we (a) shouldn't base our discussion purely on that source, and (b) that I would need corroborating evidence before I took what they had to say as true.

    If I opened up a thread with nothing more than a long screed from Daily Kos, I expect you'd ask for backup as well.

    Check out any of the factual bits of what I've posted. It's all legitimate, and if it isn't I'll happily retract. Here's another source on the non-existent CBO report that NRO went on about.

    The truth of the matter is that the bailout and the stimulus are huge, complex things, and I'd like to hear actual experts talk about it, and try to get to some sort of picture of what's appropriate and what isn't; what's potentially effective versus ineffective. Bloviation about "Left-Wingery," kinda lowers the level of discourse right off the bat.

    Instead of eating your daily breakfast of outrage over my calling NRO exactly what it is, why not clue us in to what you think about the recession (depression?) and the various plans offered to bridge it. And while you're at it, why don't you see if you can pull in some sources that aren't complete and utter crackpots.

    -edit-

    Oh, and Don, my links were to (in order): National Review, Washington Monthly, Wikipedia, Forbes, and now The Colorado Independent. If one of those sites is hosted by Firedoglake.com, I'm not aware of it.
    Now I may be wrong, but wasn't the impetus for your John Yoo=TortureBoy thread the firedoglake.com blog entry that you actually posted at the bottom of it?

    And I'm not saying I don't enjoy the Atlantic or the Economist. I do, they're very well reasoned, well thought out positions that they're advocating. But they do come from one side of the playing field.

    If you want my honest opinions on the recession, the need for stimulus and my consideration of the merit of the items proposed so far, I'll be happy to offer those. My intent was to say that if you're going to brand something like National Review as a partisan rag full of hacks, then expect it to come full circle. As for National Review flubbing the CBO report citation, which was wrong, where is your outrage when the NYTimes has another Jason Blair episode? Nope, then it's 'honest mistake', and for the record, Jason Blair really did invent his stories, and I still think that his editors went to press knowing it. But when it's National Review cites a report that hasn't been released yet, you start with the dispersions.

    It's that old double standard thing, amigo. It really gets under my skin.
    Last edited by Don Corleone; 02-06-2009 at 20:19.
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    And I'm not saying I don't enjoy the Atlantic or the Economist. I do, they're very well reasoned, well thought out positions that they're advocating. But they do come from one side of the playing field.
    Yes, The Economist is a hardcore capitalist newspaper. I honestly didn't know you'd turned socialist on us, Don Corleone...

    But you're more than welcome among our ranks!
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  28. #28
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    Now I may be wrong, but wasn't the impetus for your John Yoo=TortureBoy thread the firedoglake.com blog entry that you actually posted at the bottom of it?
    My sources for the OP in that thread were, in order: Wikipedia, informationclearinghouse.info, The Wall Street Journal and Firedoglake.com. The latter wasn't even quoted, I just offered the link as bonus reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    If you want my honest opinions on the recession, the need for stimulus and my consideration of the merit of the items proposed so far, I'll be happy to offer those.
    Yes, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Corleone View Post
    My intent was to say that if you're going to brand something like National Review as a partisan rag full of hacks [...]
    Where did I talk about "hacks"? I said "they are very good at what they do." Twice. There are some very talented, bright people at National Review. And they work for a dedicated partisan organ. Why is that so hard to hear? Why is it even in dispute?

    And once again, if The Economist is from the "other side," what side is that, exactly?
    Last edited by Lemur; 02-06-2009 at 20:33.

  29. #29
    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    And I'm not saying I don't enjoy the Atlantic or the Economist. I do, they're very well reasoned, well thought out positions that they're advocating. But they do come from one side of the playing field.

    Ill admit i don't know these so ill just ask, would they use phrases like various left wingery and other things you would more expect from someone like rush, the impression i got from Lemur was that NRO was more bias and partisan than these others you mentioned, if you really go into deatil theres little that has no partisan or bias so i can only assume he meant the level of bias and partisanery rather than its exsistence at all...
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    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
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    Default Re: US 'Economic Stimulus' Budget Review

    Now, as for the matter of the stimulus itself... I think all sides are being disingenous. Non-partisan economic think tanks seem to agree the most rapid results will come from direct government spending, but the most enduring efforts would be tax cuts. In other words, it would appear that both sides might be onto something.

    I see a lot of demogoguery going on from all sides. I see a lot of Lefty policies being inserted into the stimulus under the auspices of a stimulus bill. Not that some of them, like child healthcare, aren't good ideas, but if you want the bill approved quickly, keep the number of items in it down. There's also the provision that any institution that allows prayer or worship services on its grounds will be excluded.

    I see a pathetic lack of address of the fundamental core issue in all of this: homeowners ability to live with the mortgages they currently have. How banks are allowed to collect 50Billion in TARP payments and still refuse to restructure mortages, which probably hurts themselves as much as the mortagees, is beyond me. The plan Lindsey Graham is floating about funding $30 billion to the FDIC to restructure mortages seems brilliantly simple. And yet, because Lindsey Graham made the mistake of propsing it himself, instead of giving it to a Democratic colleague, it's being shelved.

    The core issue driving deflation is consumer confidence and disposable income. Nothing I've seen in the stimulus package from any side even begins to address that.

    And oh, by the way, I'm really opposed to making Jillian and Allison, and their kids, pay for the of our generation and our parents.
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