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Thread: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

  1. #151

    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Jim Webb's courage v. the "pragmatism" excuse for politicians

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    There are few things rarer than a major politician doing something that is genuinely courageous and principled, but Jim Webb's impassioned commitment to fundamental prison reform is exactly that. Webb's interest in the issue was prompted by his work as a journalist in 1984, when he wrote about an American citizen who was locked away in a Japanese prison for two years under extremely harsh conditions for nothing more than marijuana possession. After decades of mindless "tough-on-crime" hysteria, an increasingly irrational "drug war," and a sprawling, privatized prison state as brutal as it is counter-productive, America has easily surpassed Japan -- and virtually every other country in the world -- to become what Brown University Professor Glenn Loury recently described as a "a nation of jailers" whose "prison system has grown into a leviathan unmatched in human history."
    What's most notable about Webb's decision to champion this cause is how honest his advocacy is. He isn't just attempting to chip away at the safe edges of America's oppressive prison state. His critique of what we're doing is fundamental, not incremental. And, most important of all, Webb is addressing head-on one of the principal causes of our insane imprisonment fixation: our aberrational insistence on criminalizing and imprisoning non-violent drug offenders (when we're not doing worse to them). That is an issue most politicians are petrified to get anywhere near, as evidenced just this week by Barack Obama's adolescent, condescending snickering when asked about marijuana legalization, in response to which Obama gave a dismissive answer that Andrew Sullivan accurately deemed "pathetic." Here are just a few excerpts from Webb's Senate floor speech this week (.pdf) on his new bill to create a Commission to study all aspects of prison reform:
    Let's start with a premise that I don't think a lot of Americans are aware of. We have 5% of the world's population; we have 25% of the world's known prison population. We have an incarceration rate in the United States, the world's greatest democracy, that is five times as high as the average incarceration rate of the rest of the world. There are only two possibilities here: either we have the most evil people on earth living in the United States; or we are doing something dramatically wrong in terms of how we approach the issue of criminal justice. . . .
    The elephant in the bedroom in many discussions on the criminal justice system is the sharp increase in drug incarceration over the past three decades. In 1980, we had 41,000 drug offenders in prison; today we have more than 500,000, an increase of 1,200%. The blue disks represent the numbers in 1980; the red disks represent the numbers in 2007 and a significant percentage of those incarcerated are for possession or nonviolent offenses stemming from drug addiction and those sorts of related behavioral issues. . . .
    In many cases these issues involve people’s ability to have proper counsel and other issues, but there are stunning statistics with respect to drugs that we all must come to terms with. African-Americans are about 12% of our population; contrary to a lot of thought and rhetoric, their drug use rate in terms of frequent drug use rate is about the same as all other elements of our society, about 14%. But they end up being 37% of those arrested on drug charges, 59% of those convicted, and 74% of those sentenced to prison by the numbers that have been provided by us. . . .
    Another piece of this issue that I hope we will address with this National Criminal Justice Commission is what happens inside our prisons. . . . We also have a situation in this country with respect to prison violence and sexual victimization that is off the charts and we must get our arms around this problem. We also have many people in our prisons who are among what are called the criminally ill, many suffering from hepatitis and HIV who are not getting the sorts of treatment they deserve.
    Importantly, what are we going to do about drug policy - the whole area of drug policy in this country?
    And how does that affect sentencing procedures and other alternatives that we might look at?
    Webb added that "America's criminal justice system has deteriorated to the point that it is a national disgrace" and "we are locking up too many people who do not belong in jail."
    It's hard to overstate how politically thankless, and risky, is Webb's pursuit of this issue -- both in general and particularly for Webb. Though there has been some evolution of public opinion on some drug policy issues, there is virtually no meaningful organized constituency for prison reform. To the contrary, leaving oneself vulnerable to accusations of being "soft on crime" has, for decades, been one of the most toxic vulnerabilities a politician can suffer (ask Michael Dukakis). Moreover, the privatized Prison State is a booming and highly profitable industry, with an army of lobbyists, donations, and other well-funded weapons for targeting candidates who threaten its interests.
    Most notably, Webb is in the Senate not as an invulnerable, multi-term political institution from a safely blue state (he's not Ted Kennedy), but is the opposite: he's a first-term Senator from Virginia, one of the "toughest" "anti-crime" states in the country (it abolished parole in 1995 and is second only to Texas in the number of prisoners it executes), and Webb won election to the Senate by the narrowest of margins, thanks largely to George Allen's macaca-driven implosion. As Ezra Klein wrote, with understatement: "Lots of politicians make their name being anti-crime, which has come to mean pro-punishment. Few make their name being pro-prison reform."
    For a Senator like Webb to spend his time trumpeting the evils of excessive prison rates, racial disparities in sentencing, the unjust effects of the Drug War, and disgustingly harsh conditions inside prisons is precisely the opposite of what every single political consultant would recommend that he do. There's just no plausible explanation for what Webb's actions other than the fact that he's engaged in the noblest and rarest of conduct: advocating a position and pursuing an outcome because he actually believes in it and believes that, with reasoned argument, he can convince his fellow citizens to see the validity of his cause. And he is doing this despite the fact that it potentially poses substantial risks to his political self-interest and offers almost no prospect for political reward. Webb is far from perfect -- he's cast some truly bad votes since being elected -- but, in this instance, not only his conduct but also his motives are highly commendable.
    * * * * *
    Webb's actions here underscore a broader point. Our political class has trained so many citizens not only to tolerate, but to endorse, cowardly behavior on the part of their political leaders. When politicians take bad positions, ones that are opposed by large numbers of their supporters, it is not only the politicians, but also huge numbers of their supporters, who step forward to offer excuses and justifications: well, they have to take that position because it's too politically risky not to; they have no choice and it's the smart thing to do. That's the excuse one heard for years as Democrats meekly acquiesced to or actively supported virtually every extremist Bush policy from the attack on Iraq to torture and warrantless eavesdropping; it's the excuse which even progressives offer for why their political leaders won't advocate for marriage equality or defense spending cuts; and it's the same excuse one hears now to justify virtually every Obama "disappointment."
    Webb's commitment to this unpopular project demonstrates how false that excuse-making is -- just as it was proven false by Russ Feingold's singular, lonely, October, 2001 vote against the Patriot Act and Feingold's subsequent, early opposition to the then-popular Bush's assault on civil liberties, despite his representing the purple state of Wisconsin. Political leaders have the ability to change public opinion by engaging in leadership and persuasive advocacy. Any cowardly politician can take only those positions that reside safely within the majoritiarian consensus. Actual leaders, by definition, confront majoritarian views when they are misguided and seek to change them, and politicians have far more ability to affect and change public opinion than they want the public to believe they have.
    The political class wants people to see them as helpless captives to immutable political realities so that they have a permanent, all-purpose excuse for whatever they do, so that they are always able to justify their position by appealing to so-called "political realities." But that excuse is grounded in a fundamentally false view of what political leaders are actually capable of doing in terms of shifting public opinion, as NYU Journalism Professor Jay Rosen explained when I interviewed him about his theories of how political consensus is maintained and manipulated:
    GG: One of the points you make is that it's not just journalists who define what these spheres [of consensus, legitimate debate and deviance] encompass. You argue that politicians, political actors can change what's included in these spheres based on the positions that they take. And in some sense, you could even say that that's kind of what leadership is -- not just articulating what already is within the realm of consensus, which anyone can do, but taking ideas that are marginalized or within the sphere of deviance and bringing them into the sphere of legitimacy. How does that process work? How do political actors change those spheres?
    JR: Well, that's exactly what leadership is. And I think it's crippling sometimes to our own sense of efficacy in politics and media, if we assume that the media has all of the power to frame the debate and decide what consensus is, and consign things to deviant status. That's not really true. That's true under conditions of political immobilization, leadership default, a rage for normalcy, but in ordinary political life, leaders, by talking about things, make them legitimate. Parties, by pushing for things, make them part of the sphere of debate. Important and visible people can question consensus, and all of a sudden expand it. These spheres are malleable; if the conversation of democracy is alive and if you make your leaders talk about things, it becomes valid to talk about them.
    And I really do think there's a self-victimization that sometimes goes on, but to go back to the beginning of your question, there's something else going on, which is the ability to infect us with notions of what's realistic is one of the most potent powers press and political elites have. Whenever we make that kind of decision -- "well it's pragmatic, let's be realistic" -- what we're really doing is we're speculating about other Americans, our fellow citizens, and what they're likely to accept or what works on them or what stimuli they respond to. And that way of seeing other Americans, fellow citizens, is in fact something the media has taught us; that is one of the deepest lessons we've learned from the media even if we are skeptics of the MSM.
    And one of the things I see on the left that really bothers me is the ease with which people skeptical of the media will talk about what the masses believe and how the masses will be led and moved in this way that shows me that the mass media tutors them on how to see their fellow citizens. And here the Internet again has at least some potential, because we don't have to guess what those other Americans think. We can encounter them ourselves, and thereby reshape our sense of what they think. I think every time people make that judgment about what's realistic, what they're really doing is they're imagining what the rest of the country would accept, and how other people think, and they get those ideas from the media.
    We've been trained how we talk about our political leaders primarily by a media that worships political cynicism and can only understand the world through political game-playing. Thus, so many Americans have been taught to believe not only that politicians shouldn't have the obligation of leadership imposed on them -- i.e., to persuade the public of what is right -- but that it's actually smart and wise of them to avoid positions they believe in when doing so is politically risky.
    People love now to assume the role of super-sophisticated political consultant rather than a citizen demanding actions from their representatives. Due to the prism of gamesmanship through which political pundits understand and discuss politics, many citizens have learned to talk about their political leaders as though they're political strategists advising their clients as to the politically shrewd steps that should be taken ("this law is awful and unjust and he was being craven by voting for it, but he was absolutely right to vote for it because the public wouldn't understand if he opposed it"), rather than as citizens demanding that their public servants do the right thing ("this law is awful and unjust and, for that reason alone, he should oppose it and show leadership by making the case to the public as to why it's awful and unjust").
    It may be unrealistic to expect most politicians in most circumstances to do what Jim Webb is doing here (or what Russ Feingold did during Bush's first term). My guess is that Webb, having succeeded in numerous other endeavors outside of politics, is not desperate to cling to his political office, and he has thus calculated that he'd rather have six years in the Senate doing things he thinks are meaningful than stay there forever on the condition that he cowardly renounce any actual beliefs. It's probably true that most career politicians, possessed of few other talents or interests, are highly unlikely to think that way.
    But the fact that cowardly actions from political leaders are inevitable is no reason to excuse or, worse, justify and even advocate that cowardice. In fact, the more citizens are willing to excuse and even urge political cowardice in the name of "realism" or "pragmatism" ("he was smart to take this bad, unjust position because Americans are too stupid or primitive for him to do otherwise and he needs to be re-elected"), the more common that behavior will be. Politicians and their various advisers, consultants and enablers will make all the excuses they can for why politicians do what they do and insist that public opinion constrains them to do otherwise. That excuse-making is their role, not the role of citizens. What ought to be demanded of political officials by citizens is precisely the type of leadership Webb is exhibiting here.



    An interesting article--I think most people who follow politics will agree that their immediate reaction to "their guy" not standing up for the right thing is that they are being "pragmatic" and that "that's how you have to play the game". At least that's what mine is.

    I can see it being a good idea when you are giving bipartisanship an honest try. But I hope Obama's numbers start to tank if he keeps choosing to answer softball questions like "will legalizing marijuana help the economy" rather than "should we reform the war on drugs and the prison system".

  2. #152
    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Ah, Jim Webb. I'm glad he got elected.

    Wired online has an article on how the Obama administration is refusing to release details on the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement, citing National Security reasons.

    President Barack Obama came into office in January promising a new era of openness.

    But now, like Bush before him, Obama is playing the national security card to hide details of the controversial Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement being negotiated across the globe.

    The White House this week declared (.pdf) the text of the proposed treaty a "properly classified" national security secret, in rejecting a Freedom of Information Act request by Knowledge Ecology International.

    "Please be advised the documents you seek are being withheld in full," wrote Carmen Suro-Bredie, chief FOIA officer in the White House's Office of the U.S. Trade Representative.

    The national security claim is stunning, given that the treaty negotiations have included the 27 member states of the European Union, Japan, South Korea, Canada, Mexico, Australia, Switzerland and New Zealand, all of whom presumably have access to the "classified" information.

    In early January, the Bush administration made the same claim in rejecting (.pdf) a similar FOIA request by the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

    If ratified, leaked documents posted on WikiLeaks and other comments suggest the proposed trade accord would criminalize peer-to-peer file sharing, subject iPods to border searches and allow internet service providers to monitor their customers' communications.

    In his first days in office, Obama publicly committed himself to transparency, instructing government agencies to err on the side of public access and divulge information whenever possible under the Freedom of Information Act. Obama recently released a trove of documents relating to the Bush administration's rationale for torture of enemy combatants and other abuses.

    At the same time, though, Justice Department lawyers have been arguing in court that the "state secrets privilege" should bar lawsuits over the NSA's warrantless wiretapping program.
    More info here:
    http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-10195547-38.html

    A June 2008 memo (PDF) from the International Chamber of Commerce, signed by pro-copyright groups, says: "intellectual property theft is no less a crime than physical property theft. An effective ACTA should therefore establish clear and transparent standards for the calculation and imposition of effective criminal penalties for IP theft that...apply to both online and off-line IP transactions." Similarly, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce has called for "criminal penalties for IP crimes, including online infringements."

    Last fall, two senators--Patrick Leahy (D-Vt.) and Arlen Specter (R-Penn.)--known for their support of stringent intellectual property laws, expressed concern that the ACTA could be too far-reaching.
    and also here:
    Plenty of folks are quite concerned about the Anti-Counterfeiting Trade Agreement (ACTA) negotiations are being negotiated in secret. This is a treaty that (from the documents that have leaked so far) is quite troubling. It likely will effectively require various countries, including the US, to update copyright laws in a draconian manner. Furthermore, the negotiators have met with entertainment industry representatives multiple times, and there are indications that those representatives have contributed language and ideas to the treaty. But, the public? The folks actually impacted by all of this? We've been kept in the dark, despite repeated requests for more information. So far, the response from the government had been "sorry, we always negotiate these things in secret, so we'll keep doing so." At one point, even the ACTA negotiators held a closed-door meeting and then released a press release saying they discussed being more transparent, but haven't actually followed through.
    A shame. So much for real openness.

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  3. #153
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    An interesting article--I think most people who follow politics will agree that their immediate reaction to "their guy" not standing up for the right thing is that they are being "pragmatic" and that "that's how you have to play the game". At least that's what mine is.

    I can see it being a good idea when you are giving bipartisanship an honest try. But I hope Obama's numbers start to tank if he keeps choosing to answer softball questions like "will legalizing marijuana help the economy" rather than "should we reform the war on drugs and the prison system".
    Thanks Sasaki, that was a good read. I voted against Webb, reluctantly, based on party loyalty the last time. If he continues in this vein, I doubt they'll field a GOPer who I would vote for in preference.
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  4. #154

    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Thanks Sasaki, that was a good read. I voted against Webb, reluctantly, based on party loyalty the last time. If he continues in this vein, I doubt they'll field a GOPer who I would vote for in preference.
    Yes, and that's exactly the point the author was making--when a politician is willing to stake his career on an issue, people will take notice and minds can be changed. That's what being a leader is all about.

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    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    A minor note about those prison numbers if anybody is interested. The US have comparable conviction numbers compared to the rest of the Western world, but the punishments are much longer.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  6. #156
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Sasaki where was that article from pls I need to send it to some people.
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  7. #157
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump View Post
    Sasaki where was that article from pls I need to send it to some people.
    Salon.com opinion piece.
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  8. #158
    Hope guides me Senior Member Hosakawa Tito's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    That's a good article. Prison reform is definitely coming to my State, New York. However, it's more of a budget issue than any sense of leadership. The "Rockefeller Drug Laws" are to be repealed and a more viable alternative for some offenders will be enacted, but nobody really has said what that is. A program that I've been working in for years, Shock Incarceration , is one such alternative.

    Yes, and that's exactly the point the author was making--when a politician is willing to stake his career on an issue, people will take notice and minds can be changed. That's what being a leader is all about.
    Another good reason for term limits. Take the worry out of getting re-elected and maybe some politicians can find the will to do the right thing.
    Last edited by Hosakawa Tito; 03-29-2009 at 15:56. Reason: better link
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  9. #159

    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Hosakawa Tito View Post
    Another good reason for term limits. Take the worry out of getting re-elected and maybe some politicians can find the will to do the right thing.
    Seems like a tricky issue though. If you give them more than one term, they will still probably act the same way until their last term. And if you only give them one term, then who do we elect president? Someone who has served on term in the state senate and one term in the US senate? I also worry that with only one term, they will have the tendency to make out like bandits with corporate "gifts" while they still can, with retirement looming. And when you get an actual good guy, he won't be there for long.

    I don't think you can legislate a solution, especially when the problem is with the legislature. The point needs to be hammered home to more people: being "pragmatic" is usually an excuse.

  10. #160
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    I like the way Virginia imposes limits on the governor, no consecutive terms. Keeps the governor from spending half his time in office running for reelection, and the electorate gets a good chance at reviewing the results of his/her prior session in office in a long-term sense.

    Webb is a solid Virginia Democrat, I'm happy with my choice.

    Haven't seen it mentioned in any other threads, so here is the WaPo's headliner from Sunday's paper:
    Detainee's Harsh Treatment Foiled No Plots
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    When CIA officials subjected their first high-value captive, Abu Zubaida, to waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods, they were convinced that they had in their custody an al-Qaeda leader who knew details of operations yet to be unleashed, and they were facing increasing pressure from the White House to get those secrets out of him.

    The methods succeeded in breaking him, and the stories he told of al-Qaeda terrorism plots sent CIA officers around the globe chasing leads.

    In the end, though, not a single significant plot was foiled as a result of Abu Zubaida's tortured confessions, according to former senior government officials who closely followed the interrogations. Nearly all of the leads attained through the harsh measures quickly evaporated, while most of the useful information from Abu Zubaida -- chiefly names of al-Qaeda members and associates -- was obtained before waterboarding was introduced, they said.

    Moreover, within weeks of his capture, U.S. officials had gained evidence that made clear they had misjudged Abu Zubaida. President George W. Bush had publicly described him as "al-Qaeda's chief of operations," and other top officials called him a "trusted associate" of al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and a major figure in the planning of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. None of that was accurate, the new evidence showed.

    While all of this was pretty much known/expected, hopefully this will kick the Obama administration to get the ball moving on bringing some charges against the former administration officials behind this disgrace. Yoo and Addington at the least need to face the music for this.
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Term limits is just another cure for the symptoms not the problem. Just as the 17th amendment failed to make Senators more accountable and instead just removed the state governments from having a say in federal policy, term limits will do no good except limit the time good members of Congress can make positive progress. Get rid of the temptation, get rid of the gifts, get rid of the lobbyists and special interest groups who should have followed the rules, voted for who they thought was the best candidate and live with the consequences, not undermine the entire process with their secretive ********.


  12. #162
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasaki Kojiro View Post
    Seems like a tricky issue though. If you give them more than one term, they will still probably act the same way until their last term. And if you only give them one term, then who do we elect president? Someone who has served on term in the state senate and one term in the US senate?
    Sort of like we have now?
    But yeah, I agree term limits may not be the answer. The problem is really with us- the voters. We keep sending the rats back to office because they bring home the bacon, or pork, as it were. People can overlook a lot of shady dealings or back scratching as long as their representative brings in federal dollars.
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  13. #163
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Rush Limbaugh coins the phrase "anal poisoning" to describe President Obama's effect on other people: “But the slobbering [over Barack Obama], the slobbering… this guy, folks I’m telling ya, if he keeps this up throughout the G20, Gordon Brown will come down with anal poisoning and may die from it.”

    -edit-

    Oh, this has to be one of the Hysteria Award Winners: So this Prof. at Yale gives speech at a Yale Club event where he says that "sharia law, among other foreign laws, could have applicability within the United States in certain circumstances." The event is summarized and answered (volubly) in the pages of NRO in March of 2007. Why am I bringing this up?

    Well the dude got some sort of appointment at State, and now Fox News is claiming that this means President Obama may want to enshrine Sharia law in the U.S.A. No, I am not making this up. Ye gods, do these people eat extra bowls of Crazy Flakes in the morning?

    ALISYN CAMEROTA (Fox anchor): The White House is defending its nominee to be State Department Legal Adviser. Now, some of the criticism of this nominee, Harold Koh, is based on remarks that he reportedly made saying that Islamic Sharia law should apply in U.S. courts, even though those laws are used in some countries to justify stripping women of basic rights and even worse, frankly.

    Nonie Darwish is with the group Arabs for Israel. She is also the author of the book “Cruel and Usual Punishment.” Nonie, thanks for joining us this morning.

    NONIE DARWISH: My pleasure, thank you.

    CAMEROTA (Fox): So this man, Harold Koh, this potential State Department nominee has impressive credentials. He’s a Dean at Yale University, but he also has a history of supporting Sharia law — even here in the U.S. What are some of the things that he has said in the past that has raised eyebrows?

    DARWISH; Well, uh, I heard that he doesn’t mind referring to laws, foreign laws and integrating them into the U.S. legal system. It’s very hard for me to imagine that an American official can incorporate Sharia law, because Sharia is totally at odds with our bill of rights, and our Constitution. Sharia does not allow freedom of religion. It dscriminates against women, against non-Muslims. There is no equal rights under Sharia.

    A Muslim head of state can come to power through seizure of power, not through elections. A Muslim head of state must be obeyed even if he is unjust. A Muslim woman can be beaten by her husband. There are so many laws that are totally against our Constitution.

    CAMEROTA (Fox):Does it go so far to recommend honor killings in the event that a woman has done something inappropriate, or even public stonings?

    DARWISH: Sharia law does not discriminate between crime and sexual sin, so you can have somebody who murders a non-Muslim and if you murder a non-Muslim, you won’t have the death penalty. But if a woman commits a sexual crime, like having a boyfriend, it is legal to kill a woman who commits apostasy or commits sexual crime. There are three murders allowed under Sharia law. The first one is to kill an apostate. The second to kill an adulterer, and to kill a highway robber. A Muslim can kill a non-Muslim and he will never get the death penalty.

    CAMEROTA (Fox):Sorry to interrupt you, Nonie, but the picture we’re seeing there is of that nominee, Harold Koh. He reportedly back in 2007 told the Yale Club in Greenwich, Connecticut, that, quote, “in an appropriate case, he didn’t see any reason why Sharia law would not be applied to govern a case in the United States.” What might that appropriate case be?

    DARWISH: I cannot think of one case that can bring us any benefit from Sharia. While there are many people in the Middle East fighting Sharia, and, we are not doing a service to the reformists in the Middle East by acknowledging that Sharia is the kind of law that we can respect here in America. Sharia is totally barbaric. It is anti-woman. It is anti non-Muslims, and uh, I cannot even think of one thing except the brutal punishment of criminals.

    CAMEROTA (Fox):Okay now very quickly, since the Obama Administration surely knows Harold Koh’s position on this, why would they be tagging him as the State Department nominee?

    DARWISH: Perhaps he is trying to appease Muslim countries, but this is the wrong kind of policy because we’re standing against progress in the Muslim world. The Muslim world has a lot of reformers who are trying to progress because the laws of Sharia support Jihad. Supports Jihad against non-Muslims. It is the duty of a Muslim head of state to do Jihad, and by Jihad, the definition of Jihad according to mainstream Sharia books is a war with non-Muslims to establish the religion.

    Do we want to confirm that Jihad is ok against us in America? This is Sharia!

    CAMEROTA (Fox): Excellent question. Nonie Darwish, thank you so much for joining us this morning and giving us all of this background.

    DARWISH: Thank you very much, my pleasure.
    Last edited by Lemur; 04-02-2009 at 00:36.

  14. #164
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    You just wait Lemur, you just wait. When they come to drag you outside and stone you for being an infidel I would come to defend you, cept all my guns and internet will have been taken away. We will see who is laughing then, and it won't be kid with corndogs
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  15. #165
    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post

    Oh, this has to be one of the Hysteria Award Winners: So this Prof. at Yale gives speech at a Yale Club event where he says that "sharia law, among other foreign laws, could have applicability within the United States in certain circumstances." The event is summarized and answered (volubly) in the pages of NRO in March of 2007. Why am I bringing this up?

    Well the dude got some sort of appointment at State, and now Fox News is claiming that this means President Obama may want to enshrine Sharia law in the U.S.A. No, I am not making this up. Ye gods, do these people eat extra bowls of Crazy Flakes in the morning?
    lol Lemur, it does not disturb you that Obama wants to put this guy onto a position often considered the springboard to the Supreme Court? He has said before that he thinks US law should be overridden by International Law. That means that the constitution of this country could be made invalid by what some socialists over Britain do. He is talking about completely underminging US law and the soverignty of the US government. And I do not know if you know it or not Lemur, but Sharia law is the incarnation of everything radical in islam. You know how people say that islam is not bad to women, and islam does not promote terrorism, it is just these radical countries of extremists. Well it is Sharia law that these extremists follow. It is Sharia law that Osama Bin Laden follows, and it is under Sharia law that the 911 attacks were made. Do you honestly think there is any reason NOT to be concerned when a guy like this is being nominated for one of the highest legal positions in the country? Perhaps you would like me to cite for you exactly what Sharia law means.
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  16. #166
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk View Post
    lol Lemur, it does not disturb you that Obama wants to put this guy onto a position often considered the springboard to the Supreme Court? He has said before that he thinks US law should be overridden by International Law. That means that the constitution of this country could be made invalid by what some socialists over Britain do. He is talking about completely underminging US law and the soverignty of the US government. And I do not know if you know it or not Lemur, but Sharia law is the incarnation of everything radical in islam. You know how people say that islam is not bad to women, and islam does not promote terrorism, it is just these radical countries of extremists. Well it is Sharia law that these extremists follow. It is Sharia law that Osama Bin Laden follows, and it is under Sharia law that the 911 attacks were made. Do you honestly think there is any reason NOT to be concerned when a guy like this is being nominated for one of the highest legal positions in the country? Perhaps you would like me to cite for you exactly what Sharia law means.
    I think you have been drinking to much of the kool-aid.
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk View Post
    lol Lemur, it does not disturb you that Obama wants to put this guy onto a position often considered the springboard to the Supreme Court? He has said before that he thinks US law should be overridden by International Law. That means that the constitution of this country could be made invalid by what some socialists over Britain do. He is talking about completely underminging US law and the soverignty of the US government. And I do not know if you know it or not Lemur, but Sharia law is the incarnation of everything radical in islam. You know how people say that islam is not bad to women, and islam does not promote terrorism, it is just these radical countries of extremists. Well it is Sharia law that these extremists follow. It is Sharia law that Osama Bin Laden follows, and it is under Sharia law that the 911 attacks were made. Do you honestly think there is any reason NOT to be concerned when a guy like this is being nominated for one of the highest legal positions in the country? Perhaps you would like me to cite for you exactly what Sharia law means.
    You do know that treaty law is above normal U.S. law, right? It's not Obama that says that, it's the Constitution.
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  18. #168
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Winter View Post
    You do know that treaty law is above normal U.S. law, right? It's not Obama that says that, it's the Constitution.
    Yup

    Treaty has a much more narrow definition in the senate and as noted in the article the executive branch and the legislature have had fights over it.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  19. #169
    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    That means that the constitution of this country could be made invalid by what some socialists over Britain do.

    We have socialists in Britian... and they are in charge?!

    Well thats great news... unfortunatly socilaist policys are non existant... socialist mp's are non existant*... and socialist rhetoric is non existant*...

    So we have socialists in charge who don't enact socialist policy, don't use socialist rhetoric and don't class themselves as socialists... im starting to think we may not have socialists in charge at alll....

    *from those actually in power... i guess there probably would be a few fairly socialist labour mp's mulling around the back benches unhappy...
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  20. #170
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    OH MY GAWD!!!! HE SAID SOMETHING!!!! OH MY GOD. AND HE CALLED US AXIS OF DISOBEDIENCE!!! I COULD DEAL WITH TAX EVASION BUT NOT THIS REVOLUTION IS COMING RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR GET UR SABERS HURRY
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  21. #171
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Oh, wait, he's also been a fierce critic of GWBs dumbhead move to invade Iraq, a critic of GWBs treatment of detainees, and a critic of all GWBs attorneys general.....funny the conservatives aren't really talking about that so much as they are talking about this one thing he said this one time at band camp. I think I may be onto something.....
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  22. #172
    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    I found out where the crazy is coming from ...

  23. #173
    Useless Member Member Fixiwee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    I found out where the crazy is coming from ...
    If he is calling Hitler a fascist he should study history.

  24. #174
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Oh I loves me some Glenn Beck. At least he's funny. I just rented his stand-up DVD. He may be a sabre rattler, but he does it with style.
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  25. #175
    smell the glove Senior Member Major Robert Dump's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Oh dear, fried chicken eatery renames itself after 44th President. I don't see this ending well

    http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...2chicken1.html
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  26. #176
    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur View Post
    I found out where the crazy is coming from ...
    lol, I have heard of Glenn Beck before, but I thought he was only a comedian, I did not know he did politics. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump View Post
    Oh, wait, he's also been a fierce critic of GWBs dumbhead move to invade Iraq, a critic of GWBs treatment of detainees, and a critic of all GWBs attorneys general.....funny the conservatives aren't really talking about that so much as they are talking about this one thing he said this one time at band camp. I think I may be onto something.....
    Sure, that makes sense Dump! So what if I am an outspoken critic of GWB's policies, yada yada, but I make an isolated statement that I think all Jews should be wiped off the face of the earth and a Nazi regime set up. Sorry for an extreme analogy, but you get the point, right? Who gives a flying- what else he says when he says something like that. That IS worthy of intense focus, as the theoretical comment I made would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump View Post
    OH MY GAWD!!!! HE SAID SOMETHING!!!! OH MY GOD. AND HE CALLED US AXIS OF DISOBEDIENCE!!! I COULD DEAL WITH TAX EVASION BUT NOT THIS REVOLUTION IS COMING RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR GET UR SABERS HURRY
    Yes, peacefully exercising our political voice (as Democrats do all the time...when they are not holding violent rallies, burning flags, buildings, and people, throwing stones and molatov cocktails at people, etc) as is both our constitutional right and our duty as citizens to do make sure an appointee we think will be harmful to our country does not get in is sabre-rattling? Funny you say that, yet almost all the violence and vandalism that is done with political motivation is done by the left, not the right. During the Republican convention look at all the violence and destruction that leftwing wackjobs did as they protested that America should dare to have more than their one party.
    You think it is unreasonable to get concerned when obama appoints someone guilty of tax evasion as secretary of the treasury?!! Or even worse, when he wants to appoint someone who said what this guy said? You think that is a small thing that should be overlooked? If it was a Republican, I garuntee that you and every other leftist on this board would be burning this thread down with your protest.

    Seriously, answer me two questions:
    1. Do you know what Sharia Law is?
    2. Do you have any idea as to the unConstitutional consequences that would result if we instated Sharia Law in America?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

  27. #177
    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Robert Dump View Post
    Oh I loves me some Glenn Beck. At least he's funny. I just rented his stand-up DVD. He may be a sabre rattler, but he does it with style.
    I love Beck as well, he has one of the better op-ed columnist style shows on the air. He's also cleaning the competition's clocks in the ratings. Since leaving CNN for Fox the scope of Beck's success is astounding, he not only trounces the competition but he manages to command a prime time sized audience in his late afternoon time slot (5pm EST), it's insane.

    Speaking of which, based on the ratings I've seen since I began working here at CNN big bad Fox seems to be benefitting enormously from the Democrats' control of Congress and the White House. Fox absolutely dominates the ratings now, it's a full fledged massacre from 4pm to 12am. It's as if their afternoon/prime-time lineup has morphed into the 1927 Yankees and the rest of cable news is like a bunch of also-rans from the bush leagues. The powers that be here at CNN are starting to panic, our ratings are tanking and the brain trust suits that were chest pounding and strutting about during the boom times leading up to the election are now crapping their pants.
    Last edited by Spino; 04-02-2009 at 19:01.
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  28. #178
    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/play...26716&src=news
    Interesting. What do you all think?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

  29. #179
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Vuk View Post
    Seriously, answer me two questions:
    1. Do you know what Sharia Law is?
    2. Do you have any idea as to the unConstitutional consequences that would result if we instated Sharia Law in America?
    Muslims make up .4% of a population that is overwhelmingly Christian. Somehow I just don't see it
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  30. #180
    In the shadows... Member Vuk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Thoughts & Commentary on the Obama Administration

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Muslims make up .4% of a population that is overwhelmingly Christian. Somehow I just don't see it
    Population does not matter Strike. If a few people in the government decide to impose Sharia law, then the majority suffers under it. Just look at history Strike, tiny amounts of people in governments have always ruled the majority.
    Hammer, anvil, forge and fire, chase away The Hoofed Liar. Roof and doorway, block and beam, chase The Trickster from our dreams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    In a racial conflict I'd have no problem popping off some negroes.

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