Hai Help

[kekailoa]

I'm usually a northern barbarian player, and I know the Aedui, Luso, Arverni, Sweboz and Casse inside-out by now. Even though I've played EB for about a year, the farthest east I've ever gone was a short campaign with Baktria until I got bored. So to change things up a bit, I tried the Hai.

So far it's enjoyable, a little tough with the economy and such. The kinsman cavalry are my favorite part. But I have a few questions.

Where are the Hai homelands? Even my starting position and all the provinces around it are just lvl 3's and 4's available.

And why every turn, even when I'm not recruiting or retraining units, is my military expense growing? It grows by about 50 mnai each turn, so I'm a little confused.

Muchas gracias.

[antisocialmunky]

Part1:
-Upgrade Armavir to a Large Town
-Build in Armavir a (market), (roads), (town_garrison)(L1 law), and (sanitize)(L1 health).
= (Homeland resource will appear in Armavir)

Part 2:
-Build a Type1 government in Armavir
= (Improved government resources will appear around the Caucasus region)

Part 3:
-Build Type3 or better governments in these cities (Armavir, Karkathiokerta, Ani-Kamah, Phraaspa, Kotais, Trapezous, Kabalaka, Mtskheta)
= (Subjugation resources will appear in Amaseia and Mazaka)

You have to do some stuff for it to happen.

[Lovejoy]

And why every turn, even when I'm not recruiting or retraining units, is my military expense growing? It grows by about 50 mnai each turn, so I'm a little confused.

Muchas gracias.

Maybe your generals bodyguards are growing? If they get more influence the bodyguard get bigger.

[Novellus]

The Hayasdan campaign took a very long time for me to build up the economy. That meant avoiding wars between the Ptolemaioi and Seleukids so that I could disband most of my military. But once your economy is stabilized, you will be rewarded by much better stuff that will make the campaign much easier. You will be jumping for joy the moment you see your bodyguard cavalry change from bronze scales to iron kataphractoi!

As for the homelands, you'll have to push into the heart of the Seleukid Empire. Make sure you're ready to do so though before you decide to attack. The last thing you want is to be ganged up on by the Yellow and Gray deaths.

[kekailoa]

Thank you.

Any more hints? I seem to have no ability to recruit decent infantry or cavalry with my limited economy and am relying extremely heavily on my gold-chevroned family members. I can barely afford a itty-bitty army of three caucasian spears, one skirmisher unit, and one unit of caucasian archers.

Sad, I know, but I'm barely making 500 mnai a turn. And they're pretty experienced, all of them except the skirmishers in the silver chevrons.

[Tartaros]

Try to build up mines!
there are a lot of good places.

[anubis88]

Any other advices about the Hai? I also tried them once or twice, but gave up the second the Seleucid's attacked me... I couldn't stop them. And where should Hai expand at first? Which provinces to take? the ones north of them?

[jhhowell]

Hai are fun, I still have 1.0 installed in case I want to finish that campaign (though I deduce that to satisfy victory conditions I'll have to release my raiding targets, which I'd rather not do...).

Early game is about bodyguard battles, as you've seen. It's worth recruiting a few horse-archers (Scythians from regional MICs, or Sarmatians from the mercenary pool) as well. Get mines going, get your initial reforms (Type 1 in Armavir, Type 1s and 2s in the rest of the Caucasus). You probably won't have much choice about when you fight AS or the Yellow Death. The middle phase of the campaign is exceedingly tedious, sally battle after sally battle, slaughtering seemingly endless armies of phalanxes with your archers and horse-archers. The AI faction will eventually run low on troops, and that's when you lunge out and take the next layer of cities from them. Aim southeast, since your last series of reforms start in Susa and Persepolis IIRC (check the FAQ to be sure). A detour to Babylon and Seleukia is probably worthwhile since those are major recruiting centers for Hellenic factions.

Karkathiokerta is one of the best defensive positions in the game due to the slopes on the battle map, so that makes a good border to hold while you get your Type 2s set up in Persia.

Once you can afford top-end MICs, you'll have some awesome units. Cataphract horse archers and Kinsmen were my favorites. I rarely used the regular cataphracts since Kinsmen are nearly as good, cheaper, and much more widespread. Persian Hoplites, Srakir Martikner, and Shipri Tukul are all pretty decent infantry, depending what part of your empire you're looking at.

[kekailoa]

I just really want to get some money and I really, really need some heavy infantry. I'm so used to smash-and-bash tactics with the 'barbarian' factions that I really rely on decent infantry to carry the day. I have enough heavy cav, but my infantry is sorely lacking.

I just like charging people head on and seeing their formation explode. I can't wait for massive kataphract armies.

[jhhowell]

Those aren't the right tactics for eastern factions. There's a reason even the good eastern infantry I mentioned are all below average by western standards. Srakir Martikner (the ones you can get without expanding into Persia) are a MIC4 unit which IIRC falls between Polybian Hastati and Principes in ability, for example. They can get the job done, but you won't be able to use them again afterwards - only a dozen or so survived clearing the walls of Seleukia in my game, and that was on Huge unit size with multiple units attacking.

In my experience, the purpose of Hai infantry is to screen the foot archers and give the cavalry a fixed point to maneuver around. And assault cities, of course. Phalanxes work well (Pantodapoi or mercenary), or just put Srakir Martikner/Hoplites/Shipri Tukul on guard mode and have them hold then line while the cavalry smashes the enemy army from behind. As you've probably seen, even early game infantry (Caucasians or Hai Nizagmartik) can do this job, though they take much higher losses and may sometimes rout.

Frontal charges by cavalry are not advised, though they'd probably work against most enemies. The only times I remember doing that were when I had to remove the Thorakitai Agema Basilikou units AS produced. Hai Late Bodyguards can solo TAB by frontal charges, oddly enough. You'd think that would be unwise against the toughest spearmen in the game, but it turns out repeated charges produce a loss ratio very much in the cavalry's favor.

If it helps, my standard army was more or less as follows:

1 General
2 Kinsmen (or cataphracts)
1 cataphract horse archer
3 horse archers (Scythian or Armenian)
2 phalanxes
2 heavy infantry
2 flankers/heavy skirmishers (Eastern or Cappadocian axemen, Peltastai, or Ioudaioi Taxeis)
3 archers (usually Persian, sometimes Heavy Persian, Syrian, Mardian, or Caucasian)
1 slinger

The focus is on maneuver and missile fire, not infantry attacks.

For charging people head on and seeing their formation explode, I don't think anything can beat elephants. In which case you'd want to look elsewhere than Hayasdan...

[A Very Super Market]

Native phalanxes are solid units. Always keep a few around, their AP axes mean they can manage to fend off a light cavalry flank charge, destroy elite units, and guard walls and cities like no other.

Foot archers are always useful, though I prefer archer-spearmen. From what I've experienced, nomadic archers have the best range, but you'll be using the mountains, so no difference really.

I'm not sure what the heaviest infantry for you will be, but they won't last long in combat. Try and get one with decent morale, and don't be afraid to send in archers to bolster them. Honestly, you just need the enemy to stay in one place.

Cavalry will be your mainstay. In fact, in the early years, marry off your daughters to the first man you see. You will need the bodyguards he will bring. Swing them around the other force, and ram them into your infantry. Rinse and repeat.

Keep in mind that if your infantry survives, they will usually end so experienced that they could be comparable to gallic ones.

[kekailoa]

I'm trying to just use hammer and anvil tactics, and my infantry are doing fairly well. It's a difficult change, but I'm enjoying the difference. Still, my biggest problem is still my economy. I've taken as many seaports as I can, so that's helped out some, and I've destroyed every foreign building that isn't useful.

Thank you for all your help.

[Dayve]

There's a lot of luck involved in getting on your feet with this faction. All the battle skill in the world won't save you from Arche Seleukia and their endless armies of misthophoroi pezhetairoi, especially when, even in 240BC, you can still only afford to recruit javelinmen and pantodapoi.

The furthest i got was about 240BC. War with Seleukia was constant, right from the 3rd or 4th turn they were hammering me. I took to using guerilla tactics, but when you can afford little more than a 6 unit army and 4 of the units are skirmishers, the effectiveness of your guerilla tactics are extremely limited.

My campaign reached a high when i sacked Seleukia, but even at that point my homelands hadn't built a single building, were still under 2000 population, and couldn't recruit anything more than Parthian spearmen... and i had lost my capital city 6 times to the Seleukids, having it revolt back to me. The only way i could actually carry on my guerrila war was with units given to me when my capital revolted back to me.

After i sacked Seleukida, it all went downhill. If you could compare the situation to me hanging off a cliff by a piece of string, then this was the point where the string broke. I lost my capital and it never revolted back to me. The city north of it was defenseless and took by the Seleukids the very next turn. The army that sacked Seleukia, which included both faction leader, faction heir and another son, was besieged in Seleukia and utterly destroyed, or they may have been attacked on the way back from Seleukia, i don't remember... all i remember is that they all died.

After this i was left with a single tiny city, the one from where you can recruit sarmation horse archers. I was -40,000 in debt, had no units left, and had only a single city with less than 1000 population. I had 2 family members who were adopted imbeciles.

The only way you can win with this faction is by luck or with cheats. I'm good with infantry battles, which is what the battles between Hai and Seleukia are, at least at the start, but when you don't have quality on your side then you need quantity. When you have neither quality nor quantity, you're doomed every time. I actually followed a guide with my campaign i just described. I built, recruited and expanded according to a guide written by somebody who had done the campaign, and i was utterly destroyed, which is proof that the only way to win this campaign is with luck.

[zooeyglass]

I'm trying to just use hammer and anvil tactics, and my infantry are doing fairly well. It's a difficult change, but I'm enjoying the difference. Still, my biggest problem is still my economy. I've taken as many seaports as I can, so that's helped out some, and I've destroyed every foreign building that isn't useful.

Thank you for all your help.

it is partly a case of streamlining - the fact you've been asking after heavy infantry suggests you might have made some inappropriate choices earlier in the campaign. dayve may be right that luck is required, but perhaps most important is careful planning. if you are unsure of what you are doing at least for the next 10 turns, then you cannot survive. you need to work out how much everything will cost you and micromanage your budget to an extent that you don't need to with many (but not all) western factions.

some things that might help:
- how many diplomats do you have? how many spies do you have? while both are handy, the latter especially for spotting incoming enemy troops, are they really necessary? one diplomat can tour all of the AI factions to gain trade agreements, and you won't be able to bribe anyone so no more are needed...

- have you built watchtowers? probably useless in the early game, especially if you have spies hanging around...

- disband any unneeded troops in cities, giving that city a small population boost - perhaps you knew that already.

- finally, i'd disagree with marrying off daughters to any suitor who comes along - you're going to be hard pressed with cash anyway, so there's no point further complicating your budget with extra FMs. instead, wait for the ones that really look like they have good managerial or combat skill - the better the management, the more taxes from cities! (and better the combat, likely they'll have larger bodyguards to take on the seleukid forces)

ok, jabbering over from me....

[Haxamanis]

Beating these armoured phalangites with your early soldiers is indeed difficult as Hai.
A few things I found useful when playing Hai.

1. Watchtowers at your borders will give you some turns to organise defence, because the Seleucids (who in my campaign usually aim for Armavir) have to travel some distance trough your land.

2. Use hit and run tactics (especially with these very cheap scythian horsearchers) to defeat all lightly armoured soldiers that acompany these lethal phalanxes, that seem to be invulnerable to arrows.

3. Caucasian archers are your best option. They are cheap and easily accesable. They can be of great value conquering neighbouring rebel cities, because these cities have lightly armoured garrisons. And they are key to my tactic of beating the Seleucid phalanxes.

4. How to beat the Seleucids with little losses? Don't attack their armour, attack their morale. After you have killed their light troops with your many (horse)archers, wear the phalanxes out with your higher mobility and stamina and save your arrows. Then, when they are exhausted, mass-attack with fire-arrows to lower their morale. Finally charge with your FM in their backs and many times they instantly rout. (this was at medium battle-difficulty)

5. Focus on building a regional Mic level 3 in Kotais as it can produce a phalanx-killing combination of Georgian swordsmen, Axemen and phalanxes of your own, all three not that expensive.


Some tips on the money-issue. You HAVE to build up. Mines preferably. So don't make an expensive army at the start. With watchtowers and roads you can defend 5 cities (to the west and north of Armavir) with only one army, stationed somewhere in the middle.

[zooeyglass]

Beating these armoured phalangites with your early soldiers is indeed difficult as Hai.
A few things I found useful when playing Hai.

1. Watchtowers at your borders will give you some turns to organise defence, because the Seleucids (who in my campaign usually aim for Armavir) have to travel some distance trough your land.

2. Use hit and run tactics (especially with these very cheap scythian horsearchers) to defeat all lightly armoured soldiers that acompany these lethal phalanxes, that seem to be invulnerable to arrows.

3. Caucasian archers are your best option. They are cheap and easily accesable. They can be of great value conquering neighbouring rebel cities, because these cities have lightly armoured garrisons. And they are key to my tactic of beating the Seleucid phalanxes.

4. How to beat the Seleucids with little losses? Don't attack their armour, attack their morale. After you have killed their light troops with your many (horse)archers, wear the phalanxes out with your higher mobility and stamina and save your arrows. Then, when they are exhausted, mass-attack with fire-arrows to lower their morale. Finally charge with your FM in their backs and many times they instantly rout. (this was at medium battle-difficulty)

5. Focus on building a regional Mic level 3 in Kotais as it can produce a phalanx-killing combination of Georgian swordsmen, Axemen and phalanxes of your own, all three not that expensive.


Some tips on the money-issue. You HAVE to build up. Mines preferably. So don't make an expensive army at the start. With watchtowers and roads you can defend 5 cities (to the west and north of Armavir) with only one army, stationed somewhere in the middle.

great tips - i'd still say save on watchtowers if you have that first spy just hanging around spying for you. aren't watchtowers 500 mnai for hai? tis quite a lot, esp when you could be using that for roads etc....

[A Very Super Market]

Usually, the FMs that I get I leave for a bit to build up their bodyguard and then immediately send them out used as heavy cavalry. Many die.

You won't be able to build mines, because they cost 14000 mnai, and you're in debt straight away.

[KARTLOS]

Firstly dont underestimate the power of your generals. they are very very hard to kill.

Secondly, use as many archers/slingers as you can. a 3/4 stack for me wll probably have at least 4 foot misile units + ideally some horse cav aswell. I swing the horse archers behind, fan the foot archers/slingers across the whole of the frontline and pick off enemy units one by one. Any unit reduced to 60-70 guys can then be left for you generals + melee units to sandwhich and rout.

I never had too much problems with ptolomies or seleucids like this.

I have played Hai several times, and seem to expand differently in each instance. on my most recent save I went almost directly south taking sophene & Edessa and then west to antioch and then south along the med coast. and another army went west and took seleukai and babylon. I now have alexandria memphis, babylon etc without having many provinces in asia minor. Other saves it has has been almost the reverse, and i will take asi minor before moving west.

This is dictated by opportunism, and circumstance. Opportunism, in that if i see a city like Antioch or babylon guarded with 1 general then I am going to take it. Circumstance in that the ptolemy's attacked me so i had to go after them.

p.s i dont agree with the posts reccomending you disband units at the beginning. show some balls and go for the glory! after a couple of earlly battles my expensive medium cavalry unit that I was started with was reduced to a double silver 15 man unit - the maintainance costs on that arent much. they are currently maintained purely for ceremonial purposes as i am still yet to build a MIC decent enough to retrain them!

[Novellus]

EDIT: POST WITHDRAWN

[kekailoa]

So far the Seleukids haven't attacked me very much at all. They besieged a few of my cities, but my army of FM's crushed them, totally. They've had their hands full with the Parthians, who've driven right down to Seluekia. I left a border of buffer states to hold back the inevitable Parthian attack, but I think I could take the Parthians more than the Seleukids.

Horse archers are farrr too expensive right now. I'm just starting to build my infrastructure up, and I'm trying to keep to myself right now. I think a war with Pontus looms, though, as they were assaulting a mountain Haikh stronghold and were replused. I'm besieging it right now.

I soon plan to build up an army with lots of HA, FM's and cav to explode out of the mountains and ravage somewhere. Fun, fun.

[A Very Super Market]

Parthians will destroy your infantry, easy. Don't fight them. At least not until you get a huge HA army.

[kekailoa]

Well, the Parthian armies are mostly light infantry mixed with archers. Oddly enough, I see very little cavalry action.

[A Very Super Market]

Huh. I guess they must have settled down already. With Baktria, they usually send HA hordes. Just like those damned Saka!

[Blxz]

It is fine to disagree, but what you had written can be viewed as an example of trolling as it is insensitive to other opinions and can be viewed as a challenge. This is a forum---it is where many different ideas are encouraged among the community. Words such as these do not promote the true "community" aspect in the "EB Community" as it is often referred to. You have made your point. There is no need to put down others.

I think you are being a bit guilty of what you are condemning (some call it hypocrisy, although i wouldn't go that far). The guy is not 'challenging' or 'putting down' anyone. By trying to string him up like that you are being 'insensitive' to his opinions.

Actually I would think his advice was one of the best so far when taken in with other advice. 'having some balls' and going all out is a great way for the Hai to grow. If you can take kotais and maybe the town just above Armavir then you have a good little base from which to grow. If you fail, then you have achieved the aims of what other people were suggesting which is to reduce/disband your armies. its a risk situation that is essentially win/win for the Hai.

[zooeyglass]

Actually I would think his advice was one of the best so far when taken in with other advice. 'having some balls' and going all out is a great way for the Hai to grow. If you can take kotais and maybe the town just above Armavir then you have a good little base from which to grow. If you fail, then you have achieved the aims of what other people were suggesting which is to reduce/disband your armies. its a risk situation that is essentially win/win for the Hai.

certainly losing troops in a tough battle is a way of reducing your troop upkeep amounts, and it's putting them to good use (taking another town).

in terms of my own advice to kekailoa, it was clear that he/she was further into the game than just the first turn, hence advocating a disbandment to encourage financial growth...but early on, sure, blitz with whatever you have, if it triples your holdings then it's great!

[Karo]

I'm busy with a Hay campaign myself. And things are going great, don't have the As to fight but the Yellow death who only field infantry and I love killing them.

Hay campaign is though to get started after first 20 years things get really fun. You need to have mobile armies that can react real fast. And hope that the As doesn't have time to deal with you in the first 5 years. Get your mines working ASAP.

Your generals are tanks so use them. And start taxing your cities you'll need every penny you can get in the first turns.

First city you should conquer is Kotais and after that Mtskheta and after those two you are free to choose the way of expansion.

And get used to horse archers because they are your best friend; and try to stay away from the Partians as long as you can because they are deadly on the battle field.