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Thread: Celts = Barbarians?

  1. #31
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post
    Anyway I suspect the above are the reasons that Romans considered Celts barbarians. Despite the neo-romantic Celtic drivel idealising them as a high culture, they were not.
    I didn't say they had a "high-culture" as the greeks f.e.. I said they had a great (good, precious) culture and were not fithy, mud-crawling barbarians according to the prae-neo-romantic Celtic drivel looking like this:




    The Romans really were superior due to their ability to be open-minded and having the ability to adapt other people's achievements. Some people tend to forget, that many of these achievements were of Celtic origin.

    Don't confuse me with a neo-romantic , half-esoteric, druid-in-the-mist - poster-loving nerd.



    Apart from that, let me say I really appreciate your detailed and sophisticated post
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  2. #32
    Member Member Macilrille's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    SB, I was generalising, not pointing fingers at you ;-) but I am glad my slight bit of knowledge helped.

    Did you enjoy the Life of Brian bits? I love to use that to illustrate Romanisation.

    "Don't confuse me with a neo-romantic , half-esoteric, druid-in-the-mist - poster-loving nerd."

    That cracked me up LOL. I love Switzerland BTW.
    Last edited by Macilrille; 03-17-2009 at 11:22. Reason: Edited to add the cracked-up parts.
    'For months Augustus let hair and beard grow and occasionally banged his head against the walls whilst shouting; "Quinctillius Varus, give me my legions back"' -Sueton, Augustus.

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  3. #33

    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    @Macilrille - Excellent post, very informative. I love that movie, Life of Brian!
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  4. #34

    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post
    Did you not read what I wrote Drewski?

    I was not going to comment on such a subjective and ideologically loaded statement and just let my other post stand (as it is the penultimate answer LOL), but...

    The Romans did not actually need any excuses to go and conquer their neighbours. That they were there was excuse enough. So your argument is faulty when you assume that Romans labelled Celts barbarians in order to conquer them. Under Augustus there was certainly some of that "It is Rome's call to order and rule the world" in "The Augustan School" of poets etc (Ovid, Horats, et al), but by that time Celts had long since been conquered by Romans and Germans except for Britain, and the idea of Celts as barbarians is far older than Caesar's conquest of Gaul. In fact it also spans long periods of peace, trade and alliance with Celts as well as periods of war and hostility.

    Remember that by installing EB, you agreed to read more history. I encourage that, enlightenment is always good.
    I was typing my post while yours was submitted, so they crossed over. Enjoyed your post btw.

    I have read a massive amount of Roman History, and have learned to take a lot of it with a large pinch of salt. Which of course doesn't make it any less entertaining to read. You yourself, should know that objective views in Ancient History are almost impossible to come by. Almost everyone has a bias. I was just bringing my modern subjective view to the table ;)

  5. #35
    Member Member Macilrille's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Thank you, and I apologise for writing like a complete twat.

    Objectivity is impossible in any historical context, or even in any human action. However, I percieved the post as being somewhat too subjective and monocausal. I hope you are not too miffed ;-)
    'For months Augustus let hair and beard grow and occasionally banged his head against the walls whilst shouting; "Quinctillius Varus, give me my legions back"' -Sueton, Augustus.

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  6. #36
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post
    SB, I was generalising, not pointing fingers at you ;-) but I am glad my slight bit of knowledge helped.

    Did you enjoy the Life of Brian bits? I love to use that to illustrate Romanisation.

    "Don't confuse me with a neo-romantic , half-esoteric, druid-in-the-mist - poster-loving nerd."

    That cracked me up LOL. I love Switzerland BTW.

    Hehe, yes, I very much like the film "Life of Brian"

    I love Switzerland too *G* Have you been here? Where are u from?
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  7. #37
    urk! Member bobbin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Power2the1 View Post
    Y'all do know that Celts get the credit for inventing soap?
    Rather unfairly too, as it had been around since ancient egyptian times


  8. #38
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    You know, honestly Ancient Gaul and hte moral rural areas of Europe probably smelled alot better than the cities because most of them had crap waste disposal systems :-\
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  9. #39

    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by SwissBarbar View Post
    [...] and were not fithy, mud-crawling barbarians according to the prae-neo-romantic Celtic drivel looking like this: [...]
    If they had looked like that they wouldn't have been conquered
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  10. #40
    EB on ALX player Member ziegenpeter's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by A Very Super Market View Post
    O_O

    I don't suppose you have completely forgotten the presence of baths in every major Roman settlement?
    In whick year?

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  11. #41
    Member Member Africanvs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by SwissBarbar View Post
    I didn't say they had a "high-culture" as the greeks f.e.. I said they had a great (good, precious) culture and were not fithy, mud-crawling barbarians according to the prae-neo-romantic Celtic drivel looking like this:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    The Romans really were superior due to their ability to be open-minded and having the ability to adapt other people's achievements. Some people tend to forget, that many of these achievements were of Celtic origin.

    Don't confuse me with a neo-romantic , half-esoteric, druid-in-the-mist - poster-loving nerd.



    Apart from that, let me say I really appreciate your detailed and sophisticated post
    Haha, neo-romantic , half-esoteric, druid-in-the-mist - poster-loving nerd. I have to say an army of Conans would kick the crap out of any Roman legion, although he might want to invest in more armor than a furry cod piece.
    Last edited by Africanvs; 03-17-2009 at 18:56.
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  12. #42
    Member Member delablake's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Africanvs View Post
    Haha, neo-romantic , half-esoteric, druid-in-the-mist - poster-loving nerd. I have to say an army of Conans would kick the crap out of any Roman legion, although he might want to invest in more armor than a furry cod piece.
    Conan didn't actually exist, mind you.
    Yet Brutus says he was ambitious, and Brutus is an honorable man

  13. #43
    Member Member Macilrille's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    He did not!?!?

    What? Are you saying that Conan did not exist? Oh Noes! The horror! You must surely be mistaken sir;-)

    Him and Red Sonya and Xena lived in a half-esoteric, druid-in-the-mist hippie collective only taking up arms as evil, facist oppressors threatened by destroying their livelyhood. Everybody knows that ;-)
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  14. #44
    Probably Drunk Member Reverend Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Africanvs View Post
    Haha, neo-romantic , half-esoteric, druid-in-the-mist - poster-loving nerd.
    Well, now, to be fair, the Celts did have a decent, somehwat advanced culture that influenced a lot of the peoples around them; you can't deny that they were a bunch of muddy hobos with pointy sticks. The main problem they had was a lack of some of the crucial elements necessary to make a truly great, lasting civilization. Chief among these was writing; without the mass communication that writing allowed (at least, among the upper classes) Celtic culture could never be unified in the way that the Greeks were, for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysimachos View Post
    I personally second the notion that celts are barbarians because of their moustaches. Moustaches are very barbaric.

  15. #45

    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post
    Tacitus mentions, BTW, that the Germans bathed in cold rivers when they got up
    No, I don't think so.

    Tacitus, Germania:
    22. Statim e somno, quem plerumque in diem extrahunt, lavantur, saepius calida, ut apud quos plurimum hiems occupat.
    Sounds more like hot baths.

  16. #46
    Member Member Macilrille's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    True indeed when I checked something but my memory ;-) which fits what we know of later times in Scandinavia.
    'For months Augustus let hair and beard grow and occasionally banged his head against the walls whilst shouting; "Quinctillius Varus, give me my legions back"' -Sueton, Augustus.

    "Deliver us oh God, from the fury of the Norsemen", French prayer, 9th century.
    Ask gi'r klask! ask-vikingekampgruppe.dk

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  17. #47

    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    I don't know how to put this. I understand that 'everyone is a barbarian to someone', yes, I understand. But to me personally, as wrong as it may seem in comparison to the history texts I've read, I believe the true barbarians to be the Romans themselves. I have come across battles, where for instance, the greeks would raise their spears as a sign of surrender, and instead would be rewarded with slaughter. Did the Romans not know of the unwritten rules of war or did they do this intentionally? It almost seemed out of place, almost like Nietzsche all over again. I suppose it is this ruthlessness that allowed Rome to achieve so much.
    Last edited by vartan; 03-25-2009 at 07:05.
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  18. #48
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    If this is your measuring rod , every ancient culture would have been barbarian, incl. Hellenes if you think of Alexander the Great and what he did in Tyros.
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  19. #49

    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rilder View Post
    Quisque Est Barbarus Alio?
    Haha I was waiting for that. I wonder if I'm even qualified to give a balloon.

    Greek perspective: everyone who is non-Greek is a barbarian!

    This video shows how much cooler these so-called Barbarian factions are viz a viz Greeks. Fast forward several minutes in to get to the Gauls (starts of with Assyria then Scythia). Shrimpy pederast brown Greek in lino, wielding a tiny little dagger, is no match to big manly chainmail-clad Celt swinging his mighty sword!
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnfhV01FXY0
    Last edited by Banzai!; 03-25-2009 at 10:35.
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  20. #50
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    I have to agree with SwissBarbar, if thats your measuring stick than every single culture on earth is barbaric, including most modern ones.

    Every culture on earth has committed atrocities on its enemies, the Greeks, the Romans, the Celts, the European nations (small pox on blankets really, was that necessary?). You can't really base a culture on its ability to do horrible things to its neighbor, as that’s less of a cultural thing and more of a human thing.
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  21. #51

    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    India didn't attack another country for 5000 years (and counting)...
    Last edited by delra; 03-25-2009 at 13:49.

  22. #52
    Sage of Bread Member Rilder's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by delra View Post
    India didn't attack another country for 5000 years (and counting)...
    Errm isn't a unified India a recent thing?

    Not sure though, don't know my history of that part of the world.
    Last edited by Rilder; 03-25-2009 at 14:32.

  23. #53
    Slixpoitation Member A Very Super Market's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    India was generally stable, with points of unbelievable upheaval in between. A bit like China.
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  24. #54
    EB II Romani Consul Suffectus Member Zaknafien's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    That is a bunch of garbage. There have been 3 major wars, 1 minor war, and numerous skirmishes and standoffs between India and Pakistan since just 1947. There was also a 1987 skirimish between India and China. There was the Indian intervention in the Sri Lankan war. etc, etc, etc.


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  25. #55
    Slixpoitation Member A Very Super Market's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Well gosh, the 20th century doesn't count for anything does it? I said "was" in response to a comment about an ununified India in the past.
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  26. #56

    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    I don't know if it'd be alright to say that every nation that ever existed committed 'barbaric' acts against some other nation. I'm sure there are exceptions...nothing too important to remember I suppose.
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  27. #57

    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Monaco. I don't think they've done an aggressive thing in their life.

    Or that tiny nation in Italy (not the Vatican, god, they've got blood on their hands).

    Or Andorra. Or the one that starts with an L. God, my American education has been lacking.

    On topic, I think the hair and the extreme lack of decorum at times shocked the stoic Romans. Not to stereotype, but the two cultures (although very similar in certain places) clashed in the most important areas. Religion, war, society, urban development, all of these were points of contention between the Romans and Celts.

  28. #58
    Member Member Macilrille's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    I am going to repeat myself here, since the thread is a) going in circles, b) Going very OT with modernity and vague definitions of barbarism popping up again. I know it is a long post, but please indulge me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Macilrille View Post
    Guys, please... I hope 99% of this thread is not serious despite the original poster actually asking to be enlightened, we should enlighten him, not confuse him more.

    I am no expert on Celts, but on Germans and Rome (Tacitus mentions, BTW, that the Germans bathed in cold rivers when they got up- but he may just be passing stereotypical stuff). In any case I know what the Romans had that most others did not.

    However, let us first define "barbarian" It has passed to us from Latin, which again had it from greek βάρβαρος (bárbaros). This basically mean a non-Greek and imitates the weird sounds they made when speaking instead of using a civilised language (Greek). The Athenians even used it to describe and deride other Greek tribes/polis on occasion. Though Plato rejected its use at all as it told nothing of the barbarians.

    In any case, to the Greeks, then Romans it meant a person that was not Greek (or later Roman, for in fact the Romans were barbarians to the civilised Greeks, at least until they were conquered and their culture conquered the more brute and primitive Roman one). However it came to mean a pejorative term for an uncivilized person, either in a general reference to a member of a nation or ethnos, typically a tribal society as seen by an urban civilization either viewed as inferior, or admired as a noble savage (Tacitus on germans for example). There are similar ideas/labels in all urban societies across the world. I guess the Greeks were barbarians to the first civilised urban societies in "The Fertile Crest" where civilisation rose too.

    Anyway, now for why the Celts were seen as barbarians by the Romans.

    Actually go look here and have a laugh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExWfh6sGyso the Monthy Python crew were not unenlightened...

    Rome had an organised state and army, a constitution, freedom (no kings) a well developed parlamentary system that was a model for at least one major modern one.

    Rome had paved roads that endures to this day, bridges, acqueducts and sewers, temples, forums and arenas. Not to mention the theaters and the medicine. And while we are at it, Rome had science, it had engineering and medicine indeed, it had learned scholars, mathematicians and philosophers.

    Now, much of this was learned from Greeks (and others mainly Etruscans), but Rome had it all, and Rome's genius was in adapting, learning from others and in fact not be xenophobic (Roman citizenship was always open to people of merit even in the Res Publica Romana, some argue that this strenghtened the realm others that when they diluted what was Roman by becoming multiethnic Rome became weak and fell).

    You also seem to forget that Rome was not = Romans even when it was but a city-state in Latium. Most Romans were farmers, all soldiers came from peasant stock as these were hardy, strong and had many skills already that was required for life in the army as well as better suited to subject themselves to discipline and hardship then soft and spoiled city-dwellers. The point being that earth-grubbers are earth-grubbers everywhere. A Roman peasant would have been as dirty as a Celtic one, and both would be careful to wash a bit before eating and such. Being barbarian is not defined by your cleanliness, it is if anything defined by being part of an urban civilisation.

    Anyway I suspect the above are the reasons that Romans considered Celts barbarians. Despite the neo-romantic Celtic drivel idealising them as a high culture, they were not.

    I hope this helped you Caligula (may I ask why on earth you chose that name? You might as well call yourself Idi Amin) and I both welcome you and remind you that by installing EB you have agreed to read more history. I definately encourage that;-)
    If we continue to drift to modern time and politics I suggest Foot gets out the padlock.
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  29. #59
    Legatvs Member SwissBarbar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Quote Originally Posted by A Very Super Market View Post
    Well gosh, the 20th century doesn't count for anything does it? I said "was" in response to a comment about an ununified India in the past.
    India didn't attack another country for 5000 years (and continuing)"



    Quote Originally Posted by kekailoa View Post
    Monaco. I don't think they've done an aggressive thing in their life.

    Or that tiny nation in Italy (not the Vatican, god, they've got blood on their hands).

    Or Andorra. Or the one that starts with an L. God, my American education has been lacking.

    On topic, I think the hair and the extreme lack of decorum at times shocked the stoic Romans. Not to stereotype, but the two cultures (although very similar in certain places) clashed in the most important areas. Religion, war, society, urban development, all of these were points of contention between the Romans and Celts.
    You mean the Principality of Liechtenstein?



    Actually, the history of my people, the Swiss Confederation, is very peaceful, except maybe for some irrelevant centuries of mass slaughtering Habsburgians, Burgundians, Swabians, other Germans of the Holy Roman Empire, Italians, Spanish and Frenchmen.
    Last edited by SwissBarbar; 03-27-2009 at 08:00.
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  30. #60

    Default Re: Celts = Barbarians?

    Don't forget Jamaica! How can one be violent and warlike when you smoke an ol'joint!

    Silliness aside alot of the posts in here are very interesting and informative, thanks!
    Last edited by Caligula; 03-27-2009 at 07:26. Reason: added comment
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