Why do we bother?

[InsaneApache]

I'd like to say that I'm suprised but I'm not.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A pregnant woman, her husband and their three-year-old son were killed in a house fire early yesterday as police who arrived before the fire brigade prevented neighbours from trying to save them. The woman screamed: “Please save my kids” from a bedroom window and neighbours tried to help but were beaten back by flames and were told by police not to attempt a rescue.

By the time firefighters got into the house in Doncaster, Michelle Colly, 25, her husband, Mark, 29, and son, Louis, 3, were dead. Their daughter, Sophie, 5, was taken to hospital and believed to be critically ill.

Davey Davis, 38, a friend of the family, said: “It was the most harrowing thing I have ever witnessed. Michelle was at the bedroom window yelling, ‘Please save my kids’ and we wanted to help but the police were pushing us back and not allowing us near. We were willing to risk our lives to save those kiddies but the police wouldn’t let us.

“Tempers were running very high, particularly with the women who were there, but the police were just saying we have to wait for the fire brigade because of health and safety.

“There were four or five police officers. They were here before the fire brigade. We heard the sirens and we came across to help but they wouldn’t let us.

“I thought the police were there to protect lives. At one time they would have have gone inside themselves to try and rescue them.

“When a family is burning to death in front of your eyes, rules should go out of the window – especially with kids. Everybody wanted to try and help.”

Mr Davis added: “They were a great couple, a real family. They loved their kids and the kids were smashing. It’s hard to take in.” Another resident, who asked not to be named, added: “There were lads with aluminium ladders who wanted to get to them but the police were shouting, ‘Stay away, get out of the yard.’ They were saying, ‘You have got to wait until the fire brigade gets here.’ Michelle was standing at the window banging on it – we all saw it – and shouting to save her kids but the police were just below her pushing us out and telling everybody to stay away.”

Jordan Fisher, 17, said: “The woman was screaming, ‘My kids are in here, my kids are in here’. Everyone was trying to get her to throw the kids out but then she disappeared. We tried to get a ladder up to the window but the flames were coming out of the ground floor, so we couldn’t do it.”

Mrs Colly, who ran a toddlers’ group, and her husband, a DIY store supervisor, were expecting their third child in two weeks.

A South Yorkshire Police spokeswoman said: “The senior officer in charge is confident we handled this incident as professionally as possible. In a situation like that you could end up with more deceased bodies than you had in the first place.”

The house and some neighbouring properties were cordoned off as police and fire investigators tried to establish the cause of the blaze. It is not thought to be suspicious.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5998930.ece

When I was a nipper my dad was a copper and I'm sure would never behave like these policemen did. The police are a joke these days. As for those PCSOs I wouldn't pay them in washers, absolute waste of space.

I'll recount a tale of an incident that happened last summer. I was walking the dogs in the park with my wife. We passed some youths, one of which said something to my wife. She is no shrinking violet and began to remonstrate with them. As we started to walk away a brick came hurtling over our heads and landed just in front of us, followed by several others. I got my moblie phone out and rang the police. The youths saw this and ran off. About ten minutes later two bobbies turn up. I told them what had happened and was shocked at what they said.

"Did any of the bricks hit you?" I said that they hadn't. "In that case no crime has been committed." No crime? Chucking half charlies at people heads is legal? It gets better. I said that I was going to photograph them so that the police could catch them. I was told that if I had taken a photograph that they would arrest me on charges of being a peadophile. I was dumbstruck.

That's what twelve years of the Blair/Brown has gotten us. Policemen who don't police anymore. I'm almost tempted to say I'd rather have those US policemen who beat you up first and ask questions later. Almost.

[Fragony]

There is something to say for the behaviour of these officers, this is really sad.

[caravel]

The police in the UK are indeed a joke. The mistake is in thinking that they're there for your protection. They're not, they are mere tools that are there to oppress you.

I'm quite sure that if you'd decided to stage a demonstration about it the following week with a good few supporters in tow, that the police would certainly not only turn up but, in force. That's where their priorities lie.

Unfortunately it wasn't any better under the Tory party. Labour have simply continued along the same route, which is why much of the critique of Labour policies by the Tories has been purely political, with the latter never offering any real ideas as to how they would do it differently. I agree though, it's about time that the Blair/Brown dynasty was booted out, but who replaces them?

[Fragony]

Opression is a bit much but having police playing outside is more trouble then it's worth they should be privatised you can't leave things like that to the government.

[tibilicus]

What is the actual point in PCSO's? They don't actually have the power to arrest anyone so seem like a total waste of time to me. Why not just train people to become police officers instead of PCSO's which serve no real purpose.

[CountArach]

Opression is a bit much but having police playing outside is more trouble then it's worth they should be privatised you can't leave things like that to the government.

Then you are one step away from private armies...

Oh wait, we have those too... and they are working out remarkably well aren't they?

[InsaneApache]

What is the actual point in PCSO's? They don't actually have the power to arrest anyone so seem like a total waste of time to me. Why not just train people to become police officers instead of PCSO's which serve no real purpose.

Quotas mate, quotas.

[Fragony]

Then you are one step away from private armies...

Oh wait, we have those too... and they are working out remarkably well aren't they?

Industrial and commercial area's are already patrolled by private security-organisations, works fine, I don't see why that wouldn't work for neighbourhoods. If a security-company doesn't deliver you can hire a better one, police is useless there is no reason for having it. That or the inevitable vigilanties

edit, I like the Spanish guarda civil, they leave you alone if you don't cause any problems, won't fine you over silly stuff, and are nobody's fool.

[Vuk]

I'd like to say that I'm suprised but I'm not.



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5998930.ece

When I was a nipper my dad was a copper and I'm sure would never behave like these policemen did. The police are a joke these days. As for those PCSOs I wouldn't pay them in washers, absolute waste of space.

I'll recount a tale of an incident that happened last summer. I was walking the dogs in the park with my wife. We passed some youths, one of which said something to my wife. She is no shrinking violet and began to remonstrate with them. As we started to walk away a brick came hurtling over our heads and landed just in front of us, followed by several others. I got my moblie phone out and rang the police. The youths saw this and ran off. About ten minutes later two bobbies turn up. I told them what had happened and was shocked at what they said.

"Did any of the bricks hit you?" I said that they hadn't. "In that case no crime has been committed." No crime? Chucking half charlies at people heads is legal? It gets better. I said that I was going to photograph them so that the police could catch them. I was told that if I had taken a photograph that they would arrest me on charges of being a peadophile. I was dumbstruck.

That's what twelve years of the Blair/Brown has gotten us. Policemen who don't police anymore. I'm almost tempted to say I'd rather have those US policemen who beat you up first and ask questions later. Almost.

lol, the police in Britain are a result of anti-police sentiment that has made them scared to be real police anymore.
Also, you do not know what you are talking about with American police. They are the farthest thing from "beat you up first and ask questions later". They do their job and make sure people obey the law. Sure you have some isolated cases of corruption or misuse of power, it happens anywhere where people have power, but the good ones do their best to keep it undercontrol and punish the bad ones for it. No matter what you want to say about American policemen, if the Fire Department could not get there in time, they would give their lives if necassary to rescue a burning human. 99% of them are really true protectors of the people, and deserve more respect than they get for it. Considering the number of policemen in America (and the limited funding they get), there is VERY little corruption or abuse of power. Sorry to rant on you Apache, but before you go believing what the media tells you about American police, perhaps you should come live here and see for yourself.

[InsaneApache]

My step mums an American citizen.

[Vuk]

My step mums an American citizen.

lol, so? :P

[InsaneApache]

I might not be as ignorant of the USA as you assume.

[FactionHeir]

I think you should have taken your story to a newspaper. Very sad.

[Vuk]

I might not be as ignorant of the USA as you assume.

I'm sorry Apache, but you are very wrong about US police. It is a stereotype put forth by police haters in the US, and trumpetted abroad esp in places that are not friendly to the US. (and I know enough Englishmen to know that you guy's opinion of us is very low :P) In Hungary for example, I was talking to one of my friends about the police here and how they were directing the procession at Mohacs, and I commented that they were very friendly when I accidently wandered off into a restricted area. She tells me, "Yeah, they are not like police in the Americas, they will not shoot at you for something like that." WHAT?! I almost died of laughter when she said that. :P Shoot you for walking in a closed off place?! How do foriegners learn such ridiculous things about us? All I can think of is the media (and Hollywood shares blame equally for it I think).
I not saying that you are as ignorant as that dear lady was, but I think that you suffer from a misconception much akin to that. :P In all fairness, American police are friendly, responsible people, who do their best to uphold justice, and from what I have seen in Europe, seem to be pretty top-notch. Looking for police who abuse their power? Look at Russia, not the US. :P The police in Russia are like what most people think of the police in the US. :P

[Louis VI the Fat]

That's what twelve years of the Blair/Brown has gotten us. Policemen who don't police anymore. I'm almost tempted to say I'd rather have those US policemen who beat you up first and ask questions later. Almost.

Look at it on the bright side, IA. Not that far from where you live there are countries where the police strangely manages to combine both incompetent non-interventionism AND a 'shoot first, shoot again if asked questions' mentality.


More in general, I think the unarmed British bobby is still one of democracy's most powerful symbols. In the entire world, how many states make it a distinct policy to approach their population unarmed?

[Vuk]

Look at it on the bright side, IA. Not that far from where you live there are countries where the police strangely manages to combine both incompetent non-interventionism AND a 'shoot first, shoot again if asked questions' mentality.


More in general, I think the unarmed British bobby is still one of democracy's most powerful symbols. In the entire world, how many states make it a distinct policy to approach their population unarmed?

Problem is that it doesn't work. :P Criminals are armed and need to be approached armed. A policeman does not know when he is going to be confronting an ordinary citizen or a criminal. The weapon is not there for the ordinary citizen, so he has no need to fear it. The weapon is only there to defend the policeman, to defend others, and to force criminals to comply. It is like what we do in Taijichuan. We hold out a closed fist, and bring an open palm onto it. It means I know martial arts, but I am not here to use them. It should not matter to a lawfull citizen if the policeman is armed, because he knows that it will not affect him.

I think you should have taken your story to a newspaper. Very sad.

Agreed. That I think would be the best thing to do. Let everyone hear your story, and hopefully something will be done when the community cries out loud enough.

[Fragony]

Thread needs comedy. Here is the Norwegian police showing their LEET flashbang skillz.

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/3979...rse_humor.html

[Vuk]

Thread needs comedy. Here is the Norwegian police showing their LEET flashbang skillz.

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/3979...rse_humor.html

That was hillarious. At least they were goodsports about it though. :P I just hope my life never depends on their using a flashbang correctly. :P

[Mooks]

99% of them are really true protectors of the people, and deserve more respect than they get for it.

Now its my turn to laugh. No offense, but that statistic you pulled out of your rear end is ridiculous. Id say the cops that are truly commited to "Protect and serve" are few and far between.

When you mentioned the russian police, it reminded me of something. This funny video where a big drug deal was going down with the red mafia. The russian cops pop out of the bushes, and the gangsters go straight to the ground voluntarily.

[Vuk]

Now its my turn to laugh. No offense, but that statistic you pulled out of your rear end is ridiculous. Id say the cops that are truly commited to "Protect and serve" are few and far between.

When you mentioned the russian police, it reminded me of something. This funny video where a big drug deal was going down with the red mafia. The russian cops pop out of the bushes, and the gangsters go straight to the ground voluntarily.

I was not using the figure as a statistic, but as a hyperbole. I thought that would have been obvious, but I guess I was wrong. I have had experience with police men and women from many different states since I was a small child (my dad did work related to the police, and I often accompanied him on his work, and became involved in the justice system in some small ways myself since a young age), so I have had a pretty good chance to see first hand. Many of my families best friends are or have been in the police force. I have had police barricade themselves inside my house in the middle of the day when they were trying to stop my crazy neighbor from murdering his family. I have had lots of personal experience with the justice system myself in many ways. I say this to point out that I probably have known more policemen and women in one year of my life than you have in your entire life, and my experience has been a lot richer. Sure, I have gotten bum deals from a policeman (a Statey (all the jerks become Stateys :P) gave me a citation for going off the road in ridiculous Wisconsin winter weather, then the courts me over when I tried to contest it), there are bad people everywhere, and the justice system is no different. From my experience though, the people who serve in the justice system are USUALLY quite a cut above the common person. They are people who really would give their lives for others, people who care about justice, and people who care about the common citizen. Of the all the policemen I have known, I have only known two who I would classify as bad apples. The thing is that you never hear about when the tens of thousands of policemen across the nation daily put their lives on the line to protect and serve. A policeman doing his job and making his community and country a better place does not make headlines, a policeman who abuses his power does. Naturally most things you read on the police are going to be negative, as that is what people are interested in. No one wants to hear the millions of possible stories on tens of thousands of policemen and women serving their country, they want to hear about the exceptions, they want to hear about the bad cops.
Your statement about good cops being few and far between makes me wonder, what do you base that on? Do you base that statement on what you read about the police and the accounts you have heard of others who think that they were wronged by them, or do you base it on your own experience? How extensive is your experience with police men and women, and what about makes you say that?

[Major Robert Dump]

The cops at the fire weren't firefighters and should not have been allowed to decide whether or not a total quarantine of the fire was required, thats for firefighters to decide.

And Vuk, I love you man, but you're idea that they are scared to be cops because of police-hating is high on rhetoric and low on thought. There's a reason people hate police, and its not because of the media, it's because of personal experiences and the actions of the police. While I agree that a lot of US cops are good folk, the fact that they "put their life on the line" does not give them free riegn to do when and what they, which is exactly what they do and more often than many think because a lot of it still goes unrecorded. And when it is recorded the person who did the recording is suddenly criminalized or has an agenda. I think a lot of this abuse stems subtley and indirectly from the blank check that has been provided to cops for the drug war so we could grow our prison culture that politicians profit so richly from, but thats another thread entirely.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...0568157&q=ktla

[Vuk]

The cops at the fire weren't firefighters and should not have been allowed to decide whether or not a total quarantine of the fire was required, thats for firefighters to decide.

And Vuk, I love you man, but you're idea that they are scared to be cops because of police-hating is high on rhetoric and low on thought. There's a reason people hate police, and its not because of the media, it's because of personal experiences and the actions of the police. While I agree that a lot of US cops are good folk, the fact that they "put their life on the line" does not give them free riegn to do when and what they, which is exactly what they do and more often than many think because a lot of it still goes unrecorded. And when it is recorded the person who did the recording is suddenly criminalized or has an agenda. I think a lot of this abuse stems subtley and indirectly from the blank check that has been provided to cops for the drug war so we could grow our prison culture that politicians profit so richly from, but thats another thread entirely.

Sorry Major, but 99% (oh no! There goes another hyperbole! Replace that with most :P) of the people I know who have a gripe with the police have it because:
A) The had committed a serious crime such as drug possesion and the police did what they are paid to do by the people of the country and took their drugs away from them.
B) They have gotten speeding tickets that they think they do not deserve, so they decide to hate the police for it. :P
C) They saw this thing on TV, or they read this thing in the paper, etc.

Most times (there, no hyperbole) that people, in my experience, have a gripe against the police because of some experience that THEY personally had with the police, they were breaking the law and the police did not act inappropriately at all. Those people then latch onto whatever stories they can find in the media to justify their hate of the police. My ex-gf used to hate the police because she had her liscense suspended because she kept speeding. Ever since then she would use any story that came onto the news to justify her hatred for the police. It had nothing to do with the police abusing power though, it to do with her not liking that she had to answer for endangering other people's lives and speeding. The subject is actually what eventually led to us breaking up. :P She did not like the fact that I thought her behavior was putting other people's lives in danger and that she deserves to have her liscense suspended for continuing it. :P Point is though that she, like so many others that I have known, have broken a law in a way that they thought was harmless, and have had to answer for it, so they do not like the police and cry police abuse of power whenever there is an incident of it in the papers. What you said about police thinking they have free reign and doing whatever they want is ridiculous. They are loaded down with so many restrictions and regulations that it would make your mind boggle, and most of them do their best to uphold them. They are not above the law themselves, and they know it. As far as tons of police abuse going on behind the scenes and people not reporting it...I do not know of anyone who would not protest if a policeman misused his power (and many even if he didn't :P).

EDIT: Just saw the video you linked to. That is my point exactly Major. Things like that happen, and instead of labelling the person as a nut and punishing the person, they label police as "pigs". It was one mental case who did this. If it was an auto mechanic who shot someone, would it be fair to say that auto mechanics are pigs and they abuse their power? People take these isolated cases of nuts who get into the profession and abuse it, and use it to justify a hatred of the police.

[Strike For The South]

Then you are one step away from private armies...

Oh wait, we have those too... and they are working out remarkably well aren't they?

I will point out blackwater probably would've let them run into the burning building.

[Dutch_guy]

A South Yorkshire Police spokeswoman said: “The senior officer in charge is confident we handled this incident as professionally as possible. In a situation like that you could end up with more deceased bodies than you had in the first place.”

It's a sad story, but I believe the above quote deserves mentioning. Having civilians without any proper training run into a burning building is pantamount to suicide, whatever their motives may be, and it's the same for a member of the police. This article could very well have been about the ignorant and cowardly officers who let untrained civilians get themselves killed by running into a burning building. So yes, there is indeed something to say for the behaviour of the officers in question.

[Vuk]

It's a sad story, but I believe the above quote deserves mentioning. Having civilians without any proper training run into a burning building is pantamount to suicide, whatever their motives may be, and it's the same for a member of the police. This article could very well have been about the ignorant and cowardly officers who let untrained civilians get themselves killed by running into a burning building. So yes, there is indeed something to say for the behaviour of the officers in question.

You are quite right, and that is something that has been overlooked in this thread I believe. Related to that though, there have been many American policemen (not firefighters) who entered burning buildings to save people without proper equipment. These people went above and beyond though, it is 'not in their job description' to do things like that, and they should not be considered cowards for not doing so. To run into a building that is consumed in flames, without the proper equipment and training, you are basically kissing your life goodbye. To do it is heroic and deserves praise, but it is not something that should be expected of people. People today like to lay blame even if wrong has not been done. Like my dad used to always say, "ed if you do, ed if you don't".

[InsaneApache]

In the UK the first duty of a policeman is too save life and then uphold the law. This is reminiscent of the two PCSOs who stood by and allowed a kiddy to drown in a lodge. Elf and safety you see.

This article could very well have been about the ignorant and cowardly officers who let untrained civilians get themselves killed by running into a burning building. So yes, there is indeed something to say for the behaviour of the officers in question.

I hear what you're saying but the fact is twenty years ago the bobbies would have been the ones to have a go at rescuing the family, not the onlookers. They certainly wouldn't have prevented others from trying. We've certainly lost summat these past few years.

Watched the local news earlier (it happened about 20 miles from where I live) and the folks down there aren't happy with the police at all. There's a lot of condemnation of the (in)action they took.

[Vuk]

In the UK the first duty of a policeman is too save life and then uphold the law. This is reminiscent of the two PCSOs who stood by and allowed a kiddy to drown in a lodge. Elf and safety you see.



I hear what you're saying but the fact is twenty years ago the bobbies would have been the ones to have a go at rescuing the family, not the onlookers. They certainly wouldn't have prevented others from trying. We've certainly lost summat these past few years.

You also have to realise that this is a different world. Every action that a police officer does is so deeply scrutinized now adays and if there is any way that they can, people will try to blame the police for doing something wrong. (like the imaginary headline Dutch guy wrote) How many times have policemen tried to save someone's life/did save someone's life and something went wrong or someone got hurt so A) they were villanized in the media and very often B) they were sued. If you do not treat the police like your image of an ideal policeman, someone who will sacrafice themselves to save the innocent, then they will not act like it. Why should someone give their own life to save someone else, and leave their family on whatever pathetic benefits they are getting when everyone thinks of them as monsters and any action they do could result in a flurry of negative media attention or a lawsuit?

[InsaneApache]

I can't recall a single incident where a policeman faced censore for attempting to save someones life.

There was a case of a lifeguard being given a written warning for saving a girls life because he didn't have the correct safety equipment. He was out walking his dogs when he happened across her clinging to a cliff top. He reached down and pulled her up. The authorities said he should have gone back to pick up the harnesses issued to them. But like he said, If he hadn't reacted there and then the little girl would have tumbled to her death.

Elf and safety trumps all, even a life. Disgusting.

[Vuk]

I can't recall a single incident where a policeman faced censore for attempting to save someones life.

There was a case of a lifeguard being given a written warning for saving a girls life because he didn't have the correct safety equipment. He was out walking his dogs when he happened across her clinging to a cliff top. He reached down and pulled her up. The authorities said he should have gone back to pick up the harnesses issued to them. But like he said, If he hadn't reacted there and then the little girl would have tumbled to her death.

Elf and safety trumps all, even a life. Disgusting.

Well if you send me a PM reminder tomorrow I will try to find some links if I can. (going out to my late night class now, then to bed) I have read quite a few news stories though where here in the US a policeman does something like saving a person from a burning vehicle he believes will blow up, and he accidently hurts the person when he does, and the vehicle doesn't blow up after all, so he gets sued for not following procedure and injuring someone. Stuff like that happens all to often, and is pretty disgusting. They have made laws in my State to protect civilians from getting sued in such cases, but policemen are still fair game if they are un-duty.

[rory_20_uk]

Yes, the Health and Safety in this country is mad. Rules are here to be followed with blind obendience, and with utter disregard to initiative or outcome: as long as they are followed that's the only thing.

Having said that, to play devil's advocate, what happens if these two either tried themselves or let others enter the building? I imagine they would be responsible for any injuries that occur.

How bad was the fire when this occurred? Would the people - with no equipment - have possibly got inside to get the persons, only to have their shoes / clothes melt and burn, killing them and those they are trying to save?

It is always easier to criticize inaction and bemoan the 3 deaths thus caused, and not be aware of the 5 deaths caused by semi-mindless bravery.