The Daily Update at the Com

[econ21]

I've always felt queasy about the quest for artificial "balance" but never been able to articulate it well. Now I just need to point to this update.

Frigates are more accurate and longer range than ships of the line? Right...

Time to look at ETW realism mods.

[Slaists]

I've always felt queasy about the quest for artificial "balance" but never been able to articulate it well. Now I just need to point to this update.

Frigates are more accurate and longer range than ships of the line? Right...

Time to look at ETW realism mods.

Well, I was always wondering why my SOLs overshoot sloops and brigs, not doing any damage. I guess, now I know why, LOL. It was modeled to be so by CA...

Sloops and brigs are supposed to be able to out-MANOUVER SOL, not out-SHOOT them... Really, CA should look at how it's done in Darth's mod. SOL are way slower (than in vanilla ETW) and less manouverable than sloops and brigs so, those nimble ships are able to stay out of SOL firing arch if they choose to. But, boy... if they miss that one turn and the SOL broadside gets them...

And that's the way it should be. From the description of this patch, I feel, CA has gone completely the wrong way with the naval combat changes about to be introduced.

[Jack Lusted]

You're right about that, but you've got the concept backwards. Smaller ships with short hull length and small sail area, are slower than larger ships with longer hulls and huge sail area. Read up on how displacement hulls work.

Look, if you want to justify these things on gameplay value alone, that's fine. But it doesn't work that way in the real world. Aside from real-world experience, you can just read about it in the Patrick O'Brien historical novels. In the very first of the Aubrey series, he's given command of the sloop "Sophie," and has to fight defensively and cautiously against a Spanish frigate because the frigate can outrun him.

I'm fully aware that having sloops be the fastest ships in the game is completely inaccurate, but we're not aiming for realism in the ship battles. It has been done for completely gameplay reasons.

Sloops and brigs are supposed to be able to out-MANOUVER SOL, not out-SHOOT them... Really, CA should look at how it's done in Darth's mod. SOL are way slower (than in vanilla ETW) and less manouverable than sloops and brigs so, those nimble ships are able to stay out of SOL firing arch if they choose to. But, boy... if they miss that one turn and the SOL broadside gets them...

And that's the way it should be. From the description of this patch, I feel, CA has gone completely the wrong way with the naval combat changes about to be introduced.

What you've just described is pretty much how things will work with the balance changes. Sloops do pitiful amounts of damage so have to stay at long range and out manoeuvre ships of the line in order to have a chance of beating them. They still have really weak hulls and getting a broadside from a ship of the line is still going to hurt them lots, probably even more as ship of the line guns do more damage now. The difference in range between a sloop and a ship of the line is 100, it will require a lot of work for a sloop to maintain that range.

[Sheogorath]

The problem, it seems to me, is that since sloops would mount lighter guns, they would have to get in close to have a hope of damaging a ship of the line, which would have a much thicker and tougher hull. At long range, a shot from a sloops measly little 12lber cannons is just as likely to bounce off the side as it is to get in a lucky shot through a gunport or across the deck.

[FactionHeir]

I think the better way would be to constrict the firing arc of SotL only, so they have a smaller field of fire (though remain at their current range). That would allow smaller ships to outmaneuver them while preserving balance. Frigates should also be noticeably weaker than Lines, maybe more able to sail against the wind, but definitely not able to outmaneuver them at all while both are sailing with the wind.

[Jack Lusted]

The problem, it seems to me, is that since sloops would mount lighter guns, they would have to get in close to have a hope of damaging a ship of the line, which would have a much thicker and tougher hull. At long range, a shot from a sloops measly little 12lber cannons is just as likely to bounce off the side as it is to get in a lucky shot through a gunport or across the deck.

6lbers actually, and the sloops main way of damaging a ship of the line from range will be by using chain shot against sails and masts, or by targeting it's stern.

[AggonyDuck]

From an MP perspective the naval battles were already rather close to perfection. Sloops and Frigates had their uses, which was mainly attacking the bow and stern of the enemy line. Especially when attacking the stern a mere sloop could do a lot of damage, especially in terms of morale damage. The main problem keeping naval battles from being highly enjoyable was the rather overpowered chain shot, that meant that the battle was decided by whose lead ship lost the first mast. You know something is bloody wrong when two lines are fighting each other and ships on both sides are firing chain shot. The end result is inevitably that one side loses all mobility and after that the ships just pound the stern of the sitting ducks. Tactically this makes for a rather boring battle, especially when the best part about naval battles is the emphasis on maneuver. What strikes me as odd is that you're actually making Chain Shot even more powerful, even though it was already ruining the naval battles.

As to the RPS; I do not think that RPS based gameplay is always for the best. RPS means that the most important part in winning a battle is unit match-ups and general maneuvers are unemphasized. I personally found the emphasis on maneuver to be refreshing and, before the chain shot spamming started, felt that naval battles were the most successful part of the game.

Anyway the age old wisdom is that don't fix something that isn't broken and the balance between unit types is currently pretty perfect. If you want to fix naval battles and make them more enjoyable for the MP crowd, nerf the Chain Shot.

[Sheogorath]

Ah, now that actually makes a bit of sense. I was thinking you meant that a sloop would SINK a ship of the line. Simply disabling is a bit more acceptable to my sensibilities :P

[Karash]

Hi Jack Lusted,

Thanks for stopping by in this thread. I was wondering if CA thinks that the AI sufficiently defends it's home ports. It seems to be this is the biggest campaign breaking bug in the game. All major powers in the game rely on trade, but place a pittence on defending their most important asset. I cannot tell you how many times I have starved France, Britan, UP, Spain, India, etc of all their economic wealth (and therefor military might) by keeping 4 or 5 ships blockading their port.

Often times (and especially Britan), they will have almost full stacks of navy nearby that NEVER tries to lift the blockade. Seems utterly broken to me, and honestly...boring. I know a lot of players depend on AI trade for their own income (a practice I forced myself to stop on purpose), and its so frustrating to them to see a full stack never clear their port.

Thanks again for stopping by, and I hope you continue to monitor this thread.

Karash

[Zenicetus]

I'm fully aware that having sloops be the fastest ships in the game is completely inaccurate, but we're not aiming for realism in the ship battles. It has been done for completely gameplay reasons.

Okay, I can understand a design philosophy tilted away from realism and towards gameplay. What I don't understand is why it's tilted so differently for land battles vs. sea battles. Land battles have their faults, but I don't think anyone in the TW player community would call them arcade-like. The closest it gets is with the occasional fantasy-type unit, but the core game is fairly realistic in the way the units move and fight. The cavalry horses don't have wings, and the infantry don't have jet packs. That's what it's like for some of us to be seeing square riggers sailing upwind, doing circular tail-chases, or setting anchor and stopping dead in the deep ocean.

Why the difference in approach? It's like the land and sea battles were designed by two different companies, for two different types of gamer audience. I know you can't please everyone, but you'll please more people by picking one approach or the other for the TW series. The current approach is schizophrenic.

[Jack Lusted]

Okay, I can understand a design philosophy tilted away from realism and towards gameplay. What I don't understand is why it's tilted so differently for land battles vs. sea battles. Land battles have their faults, but I don't think anyone in the TW player community would call them arcade-like. The closest it gets is with the occasional fantasy-type unit, but the core game is fairly realistic in the way the units move and fight. The cavalry horses don't have wings, and the infantry don't have jet packs. That's what it's like for some of us to be seeing square riggers sailing upwind, doing circular tail-chases, or setting anchor and stopping dead in the deep ocean.

Well land battles do miss out some key things realism wise just like naval battles. Units don't break the instant they are charged like they generally did historically, cavalry will quite willing charge into a square instead of refusing to do so. Some units pull big stakes out of thin air and place them on the battlefield. Ranges aren't accurate. There is a hell of a lot less difficulty manoeuvring troops in line than historically, no delays when giving orders etc. It's not a case of where we are applying one set of standards to land battles and another set of standards to sea. Both types of battle are tilted towards gameplay.

[Sheogorath]

Speaking of land battles, I'm a little curious...is there currently anything being done about unit cohesion while routing?

It is realistic, but within the context of the game it makes things quite annoying sometimes. When you tell your cavalry to run down some routers, only to have them take off to the other side of the map to ride down the single man who happens to have the flag above his head it gets a bit frustrating.

[TinCow]

In re: Ship Rebalancing

Wow... just... wow. Congratulations CA, you have, with one move, managed to both ruin the strongest and most entertaining aspect of ETW, while simultaneously exceeding Flaming Pigs in pure absurdity. I never expected CA to be removed from my 'instant buy' list of game developers, but this appears to have done it.