Red Cross Torture Report

[FactionHeir]

The one from Kenneth Anderson "Congress knew all along"

[Lemur]

Thanks, FactionHeir. Giving it a quick read, there are some factual problems. The author claims that there is no law forbidding waterboarding, which is incorrect. The 2007 article he bases his essay on has this crucial line: "The CIA gave key legislative overseers about 30 private briefings, some of which included descriptions of that technique and other harsh interrogation methods, according to interviews with multiple U.S. officials with firsthand knowledge." It would be mighty instructive to know what, exactly was said and shown in those meetings:

"Congressional officials say the groups' ability to challenge the practices was hampered by strict rules of secrecy that prohibited them from being able to take notes or consult legal experts or members of their own staffs. And while various officials have described the briefings as detailed and graphic, it is unclear precisely what members were told about waterboarding and how it is conducted."

Interesting, to say the least. In no way should members of Congress be given a pass, especially if they signed off with full knowledge.

I will, however, point out something blindingly obvious: The torture deniers follow a very predictable pattern, with the following excuses:

1. We don't torture.
2. Okay, this may be something that looks exactly like torture, but it isn't.
3. What is "torture" anyway?
4. Maybe we tortured once or twice, but it was to save lives. Evidence? No, we can't show anybody any evidence. (Ooops, looks like we destroyed all of the interrogation tapes. Whoopsie!)
5. Everybody knew and agreed on it. No really, we briefed everybody. Really we did. So I guess we're all torturers, okay?
6. Maybe we did, maybe we didn't, why dwell on the past?

I think you will find that every torture denier falls somewhere on this six-point scale. Rush Limbaugh, for instance is somewhere around point 3. Dick Cheney is definitely at point 4. Fox News seems to have taken a corporate decision to support points 2 through 4. President Obama has landed at point 6.

None of these defenses stand up if you subject them to an even mild round of evidence, sanity and law.

[Furunculus]

I am happy that society does not tolerate torture.

At the same time i am glad that governments secretly engage in acts of torture when they feel the public good is worth the risk of the public finding out.

Pulling peoples finger nails out is a bad way of extracting accurate information, so the received wisdom goes.

At the same time western intelligence services made an art form of breaking spies via methods that would probably be considered torture if only psychologically so.

So when I say I support the British governments involvement in torture I am pretty sure it doesn't include smashing peoples genitals into a pulp, because received wisdom says that kind of thing is counter-productive.

At the same time, were i an investigator witnessing the aftermath of something like 911, with a suspect in front of me who won't talk and no sophisticated interrogation training to fall back on, I am pretty sure i'd take a pair of pliers to every single one of his fingers in the hope of extracting something that might prevent another such attack.

I don't pretend to view the world in black and white, but i'm glad the vast majority of of the UK does.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Furunculus:

I don't know that I agree with you, or that anyone should, but I do think you are providing an excellent short summary of the frame of mind that led to the use of torture during this timeframe.

[KukriKhan]

...were i an investigator witnessing the aftermath of something like 911, with a suspect in front of me who won't talk and no sophisticated interrogation training to fall back on, I am pretty sure i'd take a pair of pliers to every single one of his fingers in the hope of extracting something that might prevent another such attack.

This, or something like this, will be the defense offered, in the upcoming US v. Bush and Co. trial. A US trial, I emphasize.

Stand by for either a recovery, or a refutation of the policy of "how it looked at the time".

[Swoosh So]

Well i hope there will be a trial but very much doubt it, its a disgrace that america has used torture and a disgrace for anyone to back it. Its also a disgrace for obama to turn a blind eye considering the information he must be privy too.

[Furunculus]

its a disgrace that america has used torture and a disgrace for anyone to back it.

that's ok. i don't come here to make friends, and i have joined no clubs or cliques.
i come here for friendly discussion only.

[Furunculus]

I am happy that society does not tolerate torture.

At the same time i am glad that governments secretly engage in acts of torture when they feel the public good is worth the risk of the public finding out.

Pulling peoples finger nails out is a bad way of extracting accurate information, so the received wisdom goes.

At the same time western intelligence services made an art form of breaking spies via methods that would probably be considered torture if only psychologically so.

So when I say I support the British governments involvement in torture I am pretty sure it doesn't include smashing peoples genitals into a pulp, because received wisdom says that kind of thing is counter-productive.

At the same time, were i an investigator witnessing the aftermath of something like 911, with a suspect in front of me who won't talk and no sophisticated interrogation training to fall back on, I am pretty sure i'd take a pair of pliers to every single one of his fingers in the hope of extracting something that might prevent another such attack.

I don't pretend to view the world in black and white, but i'm glad the vast majority of of the UK does.

the important point here is that i am not an investigator, and the people who are DO have sophisticated interrogation training, so they will be using every trick in the book to psychologically 'break' a suspect (which probably includes techniques classed as torture), but which almost certainly does not include physical violence likely to cause lasting harm (you know, the stuff we traditionally consider torture like bamboo shoots under the finger nails, and the rack, etc).

From what Obama has released I am perfectly happy. I am happier still that there is public outrage because it would be a very unhealthy civic society that tolerated torture.