Red Cross Torture Report

**drone** · 05-08-2009, 15:37

Originally Posted by Lemur

Congresscritter update: Pelosi knew.

And it begins...

She's been in full CYA mode ever since she became Speaker. This just highlights the need for an independent prosecutor, a congressional investigation would be a whitewash.

When is the Democratic primary for her seat?

**Lemur** · 05-08-2009, 15:43

Ugh, file Pelosi Knew under "Maybe, If the CIA is Telling the Truth This Time." Apparently the CIA has not released any of their briefing documents, not even in redacted form, but rather a press-ready summary. And it's got problems; they didn't even get the list of attendees right.

Grrr. I suspect Pelosi is guilty as sin, but I'd like a little more transparency regarding congressional briefings. This field is too littered with people who have every reason to dissemble. Congresscritters will lie to pretend they didn't know about the torture program. The CIA will attempt to implicate as many high-ranking others as possible, spreading the blame.

It's like one of those Agatha Christie novels where every dinner guest had a great motive to kill the ship's captain. Only it's a lot less amusing.

-edit-

Senator Jay Rockefeller (D-VA) also implicated. Independent commission is the only way to go; too many Dems in Congress want to shield themselves from the spanking they deserve.

And of course, as far as we can find, he hasn't denied that he was briefed on the fact that waterboarding was happening, as Pelosi essentially has. Indeed, the West Virginia senator, who this year moved over to chair the appropriations committee, has been relatively restrained in his comments about the torture debate.

Still, Rockefeller has, rightly, had harsh words for the Bushies who approved torture. CNN reported last month:

Sen. Jay Rockefeller said he agreed that CIA operatives shouldn't face prosecution, but is "not prepared to say the same for the senior Bush administration officials who authorized or directed these policies in the first place."

"The focus for right now should be on finding the facts," the West Virginia Democrat added.

But if nothing else, the documents -- which appear to show that Rockefeller had an early, detailed, look at what was being done -- suggest that the senator, like many of his colleagues, was hardly a profile in courage on the issue.

-edit-

Link to the doc released by the CIA (PDF warning). Not exactly what I was hoping for.

**Vuk** · 05-09-2009, 08:41

Glad to see you showing some objectivity Lemmy!

I seriously did not think that you would be posting that.

As anyone who knows me knows, I do not support torture...at all. I think that the government using torture is wrong. That said though, I think that the methods being described as torture here are not. Waterboarding is what all the fuss is about, so that is the one I intended to tackle (the caterpillar would have just been a waste of time :P).
Here is what I did. I am in Hungary studying now, without access to much, so I enlisted the help of a few friends. I do not have a bath tub in my apartment, so we went over to a friends place. Me, and the army buddy I am with both subjected ourselves to the same 'waterboarding' that was used on the terrorists. Here is what I can say: first of all, I do not want to do it again. :P It is not a pleasant experience at all. That said though, I do not think that I would classify it as torture. Torture is using pain to overwhelm a person's will. Waterboarding does not do that. It is like putting a gun at someone's head and forcing them to talk, only it is a drawn out process that let's them slip very close to the end and is much more likelely to make them talk. You do not feel pain, you simply feel that if you do not give in, you will die. (similar to putting a gun to someone's head) You freak out and panick, and give in after a while to escape death. That is threatening someone with death though, NOT torturing them. It is not mentaly pleasant, but what interrogation is? What warfare is? What terrorism is?
I'll admit that it is a horrible feeling, but on the bright side, I held out for 21 seconds the third time, which is one second over the average that people in the US military did.

Honestly, it is little different than chicken breath or choke games in highschool and college. When I get home I will go down to my brother's place, enlist his help, and make a video of the Vuk getting waterboarded for you.
I tell you what, I would never voluntarily be branded, or have things stuck under my fingernails, or be kicked in the crotch, etc. Those things are torture, waterboardinglikelypanicmentallyhigh school isn't.

**Tribesman** · 05-09-2009, 09:46

One slight problem there Vuk , using your definition of what is not torture you contradict your own government and military on what is torture .
For a simple example look no further than the USS Pueblo

**Vuk** · 05-09-2009, 09:55

Originally Posted by Tribesman

One slight problem there Vuk , using your definition of what is not torture you contradict your own government and military on what is torture .
For a simple example look no further than the USS Pueblo

The Korea incident? My memory is foggy, perhaps you can provide me with some sources. (anything that is not from Pravda or the Huffington Post will be fine)

**Tribesman** · 05-09-2009, 10:03

perhaps you can provide me with some sources.

Do you mean sources on the use of threats as mental torture by making people think they or others would die if they didn't say what the torturers wanted them to say?
Perhaps I could, but maybe I won't

**Vuk** · 05-09-2009, 10:14

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Do you mean sources on the use of threats as mental torture by making people think they or others would die if they didn't say what the torturers wanted them to say?
Perhaps I could, but maybe I won't

So you are saying "I have proof that you are wrong Vuk, but I am keeping it secret."
If you want to prove something, then prove it. Anyone can say "I know that you are wrong, but I will not tell you why. Take my word for it though, you are". Unless you can tell me WHY, then I am not gonna believe you.