The Speaker of the House of Commons to step down

[InsaneApache]

Yes I do. I lived in Scotland for a couple of years.

Boothroyd came from Dewsbury, you know, Shannon Mathews country. Not exactley salubrious. I'm still lost on your point though.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Naturally, I do not know who most of the candidate speakers from the poll are.

Just posting here to say that I am fascinated by recent events in Britain. This time, it's serious. The British electorate means business. Exciting times!

(Do they by any chance have a handful of inconsequential vagabonds and drunks locked up in a small prison tower in London somewhere? About to be freed by a pitchfork-armed mob? )

[Adrian II]

Just posting here to say that I am fascinated by recent events in Britain. This time, it's serious. The British electorate means business. Exciting times!

Aren't they? And they certainly put paid to recurrent British whining about corruption, absenteeism and the expenses culture in France or Brussels. Makes one wonder how the British public will react? Will they chop off some heads (the French way) or elect a brute to do the chopping for them (the German way)?

In the background of all of this, I hear the constant drumroll of forces affirming that democracy is a shambles and that there is an alternative, that we deserve better.

[LittleGrizzly]

I heard an intresting bit on the expenses debate the other day...

British mps are paid less than thier counterparts in other countrys (obviously america but more similar countrys like france and germany) back in the eastly 90's mps were told it wasn't politically a good idea to have a pay rise... so they should claim extra expenses instead...

Sounds fairly reasonable....

I think we should give mps a pay rise and make expenses only for no london mps who need a property to stay in overnight sometimes and cover thier expenses for trips they have to make... and nothing else... no moat cleaning, porn or gardeners...

[InsaneApache]

I think that MPs should be paid the minimum wage. After all they keep trotting out the mantra that they are in politics for public duty, not self enrichment. (yeah riiight!) It might keep their feet on the ground when they pass all the stealth taxes they expect the rest of us to pay.

Some gaol time for the worst miscreants would be a welcome thing as well.

[AussieGiant]

I think you'll find MP's have been giving themselves very nice pay rises in the last 18 years. Certainly more than the average wage earner.

Likewise the pension funds and expense accounts are very generous.

Bottom line:

If a member of the public was abusing the welfare system to the extent these MP's were abusing their expenses, where do you think they would be standing in relation to the legal system right now?

Do you think a person could admit to what they did, and stand down from their job and expect the civil law system to say: "Fair enough, good play their old chap. You've fallen on your sword and we will move onto the next case."

How about Meryll Lynch paying out some 2 billion dollars in bonuses to their executives after posting a 800 billion dollar loss, and the cracking thing is...the bonus money is tax payer funds from the treasury of the United States through AIG.

I mean really, do these people really think it doesn't go unnoticed that everyone seems to be using tax payer funds to line their own pockets?

And guess what.

The government of the UK decides to up the tax rate to 50% plus in response to the cataclysmic screw up perpetrated by the private banking sector.

Last time I check how banks deal will loans is they ask the person or organisation to pay the loan back themselves. Not some 3rd party like the tax payer who was slugged with coming up with the bail out money in the first place.

Doesn't it strike you all here as simply incredible that the UK government can hand out taxpayer money to the private sector, then turn around to the same tax payer who had no hand in the disaster in the first place and then ask them to help pay back the very money that was handed out in the first pace?

Seems rather like double dipping to me.

On that statement alone anyone can run for office and win in most 1st world western countries in the next 15 years.

The moral fiber of people in general is rapidly falling into disgrace.

[drone]

At least the Speaker of your House has the common decency to resign when he/she disgraces him/herself.

[InsaneApache]

I think you'll find MP's have been giving themselves very nice pay rises in the last 18 years. Certainly more than the average wage earner.

Likewise the pension funds and expense accounts are very generous.

Bottom line:

If a member of the public was abusing the welfare system to the extent these MP's were abusing their expenses, where do you think they would be standing in relation to the legal system right now?

Do you think a person could admit to what they did, and stand down from their job and expect the civil law system to say: "Fair enough, good play their old chap. You've fallen on your sword and we will move onto the next case."

How about Meryll Lynch paying out some 2 billion dollars in bonuses to their executives after posting a 800 billion dollar loss, and the cracking thing is...the bonus money is tax payer funds from the treasury of the United States through AIG.

I mean really, do these people really think it doesn't go unnoticed that everyone seems to be using tax payer funds to line their own pockets?

And guess what.

The government of the UK decides to up the tax rate to 50% plus in response to the cataclysmic screw up perpetrated by the private banking sector.

Last time I check how banks deal will loans is they ask the person or organisation to pay the loan back themselves. Not some 3rd party like the tax payer who was slugged with coming up with the bail out money in the first place.

Doesn't it strike you all here as simply incredible that the UK government can hand out taxpayer money to the private sector, then turn around to the same tax payer who had no hand in the disaster in the first place and then ask them to help pay back the very money that was handed out in the first pace?

Seems rather like double dipping to me.

On that statement alone anyone can run for office and win in most 1st world western countries in the next 15 years.

The moral fiber of people in general is rapidly falling into disgrace.

By gad sir, someone else who's 'got it'. I salute you.

[King Henry V]

Sir George Young sounds like the sort of chap for the job: not too involved in his party's politics and of the right sort of standing, unlike most parliamentarians nowadays, who, to quote an eminent politician of the printed page, have "no breeding, no backbone, and no bottom".

[Furunculus]

Aren't they? And they certainly put paid to recurrent British whining about corruption, absenteeism and the expenses culture in France or Brussels. Makes one wonder how the British public will react? Will they chop off some heads (the French way) or elect a brute to do the chopping for them (the German way)?

In the background of all of this, I hear the constant drumroll of forces affirming that democracy is a shambles and that there is an alternative, that we deserve better.

lol, i don't think so. british politics is well above the bar when it comes to corruption, even in comparison to just the 'developed' world.

the remarkable thing is how much fuss is made for a little expenses fiddling from a political class that is paid very little, in comparison to the weary silence found in other countries that have politics tainted by brown-paper envelopes of cash and collusion with organised crime.

[Furunculus]

Good article from the author of Democracy: 1,000 Years in Pursuit of British Liberty:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...ntroversy.html

[Rhyfelwyr]

Norris, a teller for the Bill's supporters, had counted the inordinately fat Lord Grey as 10 votes rather than one.

lulz

[Louis VI the Fat]

Makes one wonder how the British public will react? Will they chop off some heads (the French way) or elect a brute to do the chopping for them (the German way)?

In the background of all of this, I hear the constant drumroll of forces affirming that democracy is a shambles and that there is an alternative, that we deserve better.

I think the reaction will be that the electorate will show Westminster real good by electing some useless plonkers to the European parliament next month. That'll show 'em real good and all that.


Of course, that won't be the end of it. The difference in reaction between this scandal and previous ones in recent years, shows that the old adage about British democracy still holds true: You can take away a Britons pride and freedom. But you can't touch his money.

[Furunculus]

Michael Martin was brought down in a shadowy Rightist putsch. So says the World Socialist Web Site

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_...lutionary_coup

[Rhyfelwyr]

Michael Martin was brought down in a shadowy Rightist putsch. So says the World Socialist Web Site

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_...lutionary_coup

Ridiculous I know, but its not like the right isn't prone to conspiracy theories (did somebody say Dow Jones?). I like how the article links to another one about the Levellers, talk about an EPIC FAIL trying to understand what the Leveller movement is about.

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's true, in France or Italy a politician's capacity for embezzlement and fraud has become the measure of his political clout and competence. French politicians are extremely competent.

But Adrian, dearest, that was exactly my point.

Imagine your, or a Britons, bemusement when Finland finds itself in a severe political crisis because an MP accidentaly took home a 25 cent pencil with him. That's a sign of different norms, no? The innocence of it all would be striking to you.

Don't you see what I was getting at? This is the second thread in which I payed a compliment to Britain by putting the crisis into perspective:

Me, I see it all not as a sign of deteriorating political norms in Britian, but as a sign of growing British democratic maturity.

Try Belgium. France. Italy.

I was actually paying the UK a compliment. I guess it sounded like I was slagging the UK off then.
Oh well, file this under 'different norms' too. I also already know that I am the only one who thinks Brenus' post is hilarious.



Edit: you speak French, Adrian. Insults are disguised as compliments. Compliments disguised as insults. Half of Belgium looked at me funny when I expressed my admiration for Belgium by claiming it doesn't exist. Last week, Zapatero (and silly Royal) thought Sarko was slagging him off, when he was doing the exact oposite. When a Frenchman adresses you as 'my dear friend', it means you are anything but. Etcetera.
Maybe the style doesn't translate well to the blunt and direct Germanic cultural and linguistic world.

[Adrian II]

Edit: you speak French, Adrian. Insults are disguised as compliments. Compliments disguised as insults.

My dearest friend, you are so right.

When a Frenchman says 'Je constate..' in the most sober, business-like manner, that's when he is about to launch his worst insults and insinuations. When he gives you a parting handshake and a smile as well, it is the surest sign that he is going to go straight to the police and his lawyer and sue you till kingdom come.

EDIT
I have to hand it to you, though.
In France it is unthinkable that a person would be arrested for wearing a tee-shirt quoting, say, Anatole France: 'Religion has done love a great service by making it a sin.' A huge stink would ensue.
In Britain a man has been arrested for wearing a tee-shirt that quoted Orwell: 'In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.' His arrest was doubly absurd in view of the text on his teeshirt. What made it triple absurd is that no one, not even a single member of parliament, raised his voice against this.

[Adrian II]

I think the reaction will be that the electorate will show Westminster real good by electing some useless plonkers to the European parliament next month. That'll show 'em real good and all that.

You mean with Britain needing the EU more than ever because of the present economic crisis, they are going to send yet more illiterate isolationists to Brussels? In view of the record that sounds plausible.

Of course, that won't be the end of it. The difference in reaction between this scandal and previous ones in recent years, shows that the old adage about British democracy still holds true: You can take away a Britons pride and freedom. But you can't touch his money.

Now that is ungrateful. The Brits have subsidised undeserving French farmers for decades. It just hurts their pride to subsidise their own non-valeurs instead of just yours. As a Dutchman I am perfectly willing to keep financing the lot of you, since that seems to have been our main job in this bloody union all along. In exchange for that, would you guys please behave like grown-ups for a change?

Btw I voted for Vince Cable because that's a kewl name. I don't know any of those losers. Anyway, can I claim a toilet seat now? Or a barrel of horse manure?

[InsaneApache]

Only if you have a moat and your mortgage paid off.

[Tribesman]

28 tons is a big barrel Adrian .
Actually that makes me think , since most stables will happily give their away for free what was this crook doing submitting a bill for buying it ?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Now that is ungrateful. The Brits have subsidised undeserving French farmers for decades. It just hurts their pride to subsidise their own non-valeurs instead of just yours.

Ungrateful? I am merely expressing my continued amusement about Britain getting its knickers in a twist over some pocket money for politicians. 88 pence for bathtub plugs and the like. It is cute and adorable.

French politicians snub at anything below 100 million euros.

So much as try to strip an inch of liberty from higher eductation, and the French universities will shut down for months on time, trying to spread their opposition to the working classes. But political parties can blur the difference between private and public money indefinetely.

In Britain, you can install a CCTV in a person's bathroom and he'll only politely object a bit. But embezzle five quid, and you are history.

It is a fun difference.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Just a small sample. There are always large-scale, insidious schemes at work in French politics. I could fill the next five pages of this thread with them.

Elf Aquitaine, until its privatisation in 1994, was much more than a oil company - according to prosecutors at the trial of Elf's top managers.

They claim the state-owned firm worked as an unofficial arm of France's murkiest diplomacy. The close relationship between Elf and French officials is well-documented, and goes back to the presidency of General Charles de Gaulle.

Elf had close links with the French state

As the company expanded into Africa in the 1960s and 1970s, Elf paid secret "commissions" to African officials with the blessing of French governments. By the 1980s Elf had operations in Gabon, Congo Brazzaville, Cameroon, Angola and Nigeria - which, investigators say, were kept well oiled by bribes.

Furthermore, Elf allegedly channelled increasing amounts back to France, where the money found its way to politicians and parties, investigators claim. As the former socialist foreign minister Roland Dumas recently put it, Elf turned into a "cash-cow".

Mitterrand 'gave Chateau to Golf Partner'

"It was magnificent," said Jean-François Pagès, Elf's former real estate manager. "A superb 2-hectare [5-acre] park, two- or three-century-old trees, 600sq metres of accommodation and an enormous marble staircase."

http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/5-29-2003-40965.asp

French Corruption Erodes Trust in Politics


The latest corruption trial of the French president's cronies leaves the public shaking their heads, yet again.
It is a case of déjà vu for millions of French people: forty-seven politicians and other officials are on trial this week over a vast kickback scheme. For several years in the early 1990s, construction companies are said to have paid 90 million euros ($116 million) in bribes, swelling the coffers of political parties. Their reward: contracts to build and maintain secondary schools in the Paris area.

#And yet again, the trials involve President Chirac when he served as mayor of Paris and his allies, politicians from the entire spectrum. Mr Chirac invoked presidential immunity to escape investigation over other affairs, but his allies didn't have that option.

[Banquo's Ghost]

May I remind Honourable Members that I shall be claiming these daisies on expenses?

[Adrian II]

Just a small sample. There are always large-scale, insidious schemes at work in French politics.

It's true, in France or Italy a politician's capacity for embezzlement and fraud has become the measure of his political clout and competence. French politicians are extremely competent.

There's yet another marked difference in style. French politicians are accustomed to being bribed, whereas British politicians feel obliged to bribe others, usually foreign gentlemen in tea towels or ill-fitting Hong Kong-made suits. The Al Yamama deal (1985) comes to mind, a zinger so big that details about the slush funds have never been released by the Serious Fraud Office. At least Giscard was given diamonds by Bokassa, not the other way round.

After financing hundreds of insufferably stupid French movies, thousands of useless French EU bureaucrats and megazillions of overrated, heavily subsidised French wine I feel that The Hague should present Sarkozy with a towel and a $45 suit on his next birthday.

[KukriKhan]

So, with Mr. Martin being sacrificed, is this the end of it? Or just the start of inquiries, inspections and investigations? And will/would those i,i & i's thwart the House's ability to do its normal business?

[InsaneApache]

So, with Mr. Martin being sacrificed, is this the end of it? Or just the start of inquiries, inspections and investigations? And will/would those i,i & i's thwart the House's ability to do its normal business?

Not the end by a long chalk. People are furious at being bilked by our elected representatives. Combined with the general ineptitude and incompetence of our present government, the people are in no mood to be lectured to by these no marks.

I expect that the three main parties will take a hammering in the EUSSR elections in June. I also suspect that come the general election there will be an awful lot of independent Mps in parliament.

My moneys on the skateboarding duck.

[Furunculus]

the end of it will come after the next general election, which will be a bloodbath for those perceived to be at the forefront of the sleaze.