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  1. #1
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Edukashun, edukashun, edukashun!

    I've been concerned for some time about the effects of dumbing down our educational system. To be fair to our current government this started a long time ago. However Blair and Brown have lifted this whole sorry farrago to a new level.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    SOME of the country’s most academic schools are discouraging pupils from applying to popular courses at Durham University in protest at what they see as an admissions system “fixed” against them.

    The pupils are being told that they are likely to be overlooked for some courses because Durham uses a handicap system, based on mathematical formulae, to favour candidates from schools with poor grades.

    As a result, candidates from high-performing schools - whether state or independent - are penalised.

    Durham, Oxford and Cambridge are among those universities that have adopted formulae that use GCSE results data specially compiled by Ed Balls’s Department for Children, Schools and Families (DCSF). The system gives a rating to the GCSE performance of every school in the country which is used to “weight” the scores of university applicants.
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    The thinking is that because candidates from low-scoring schools have outstripped their peers, they deserve more credit than pupils who score a string of A* grades at a school where most pupils do so.

    The extra points can be decisive in “tie breakers” for some of Durham’s most heavily oversubscribed courses, such as English and history, with more than 20 applicants per place.

    Andrew Grant, chairman of the Headmasters’ and Headmistresses’ Conference of independent schools and headmaster of St Albans school, Hertfordshire, said he had sympathy with the plight of the university, which has to reject about 3,500 applicants a year predicted to score at least three As at A-level. “None of us has any quarrel with making an allowance for serious disadvantage in individual cases,” he said. “What all of us object to is some spurious mathematical formula being applied across the board as if some kind of genuine accuracy is achievable.

    “The message I and some colleagues are getting from Durham is that however brilliant your students are in English and history, send them somewhere else - we don’t want them.”

    Barnaby Lenon, headmaster of Harrow school, London, said he was warning his brightest pupils they may not get offers for these subjects at Durham “because this year we have had a letter from them saying they are giving preference to pupils from low-achieving schools”.

    The concern is spreading to the state sector. Martin Post, headmaster of Watford Grammar School for Boys - a comprehensive, despite its name - said the mathematical approach was flawed.

    “How can you weight a school on the basis of these GCSE results? Do they take into account, for example, vocational courses for which the government often gives the same value as four GCSEs? Bless them, these people in higher education are probably unaware of the wangles that go on to improve league positions.”

    Universities have been under strong pressure from the government to raise the proportions of students from state schools and deprived families. Use of the formulae is only one of the techniques used.

    Durham has said its system was introduced partly in response to a report last year by the National Council for Educational Excellence, which was endorsed by Gordon Brown, Balls and John Denham, the universities secretary.

    Sir Martin Harris, the government’s director of fair access, said he expected the GCSE points method to spread. “Will it help fairer access if universities bear in mind average performance of the school? . . . I imagine universities will go down that path,” he said.

    However, Professor Alan Smithers, director of the Centre for Education and Employment Research at Buckingham University, said the methods were “antieducational”. He added: “The operation of these formulae is crude and unfair. Universities should be looking for those with the most talent. The country is making a grave mistake.”

    Other universities using formulae include Cambridge, which uses government data to award variable points based on GCSEs. The university says no candidates win places solely on their modified GCSEs, but that it is “unarguable” that a candidate’s grades are affected by the school they attended.

    Oxford also uses weighted GCSEs for admissions to medical degrees. On the course, which traditionally had a public school “rugger bugger” image, 50% of a candidate’s chances of being shortlisted for an interview depends on GCSE score, marked up if they attend a poorly performing school.

    The Durham formula allows each candidate a maximum eight points for GCSEs. An A* scores one, with 0.6 for an A. The score is “modified” with up to 5.5 points to help candidates who have outperformed the average for their school.

    Other universities that have requested GCSE figures include Leeds, Manchester, Bristol and Warwick.

    Some departments at Bristol, including history, give extra points to candidates from poorly performing schools, although the government data are used only for research.

    Some sixth formers believe they may have already been hit by formulae or similar methods. Jack Harman, 19, attended King’s College school, Wimbledon, a high-performing school in south London.

    Even though he was predicted to gain three As at A-level, he was rejected by all five British universities to which he applied to read history - Oxford, Edinburgh, York, Warwick and King’s College London. He will now study in America instead.

    His mother Emma Duncan said: “I cannot say the British universities are definitely biased . . . [but] calibrating the children’s results with the school record may be one reason Jack was turned down.It is bonkers he does not have a place in a good university here.”

    Universities said weighted GCSE scores were vital to see a candidate’s grades in context.

    A Durham spokesman said: “For some courses, competition is so fierce our selectors have to make choices between applicants who present themselves with identical credentials.

    “The DCSF standardisation measurement allows selectors to see how an applicant has performed in relation to their school’s average. The results have been used to inform decisions in favour of fee [paying] as well as nonfee paying schools.”

    A threat to excellence

    The government formula used to analyse GCSE results, adopted by Durham and Oxford, is obviously flawed.

    It is flawed for two reasons. First, because it assumes that all GCSE results signify an equal level of intellectual achievement. They do not. Many state schools enter their pupils for vocational qualifications which, if passed, are said to count as four good GCSE grades. This is a scam and it renders the whole concept of this government formula ridiculous.

    Why, moreover, should a girl from a highly performing school who does slightly worse in her GCSE examinations than her peers, achieving, say, eight A grades against a school average of nine, be judged a weaker candidate than the boy from a less successful school who achieves five A grades against a school average of two or three? The latter candidate may be the stronger, but no mechanistic formula is going to establish the fact.

    Ministers, rightly, want more bright young people from disadvantaged homes to win places at top universities. They think, wrongly, that this can be achieved by forcing universities to implement admissions policies that discriminate against candidates from independent and highly performing schools.

    In fact, of course, the solution lies in the schools disadvantaged children attend. Labour has failed to raise standards in such schools and now wants us to believe that the problem is the elitism of our best universities.

    Great universities are, by definition, elitist. They are institutions that exist in order to promote academic excellence. That excellence will survive if the best candidates compete with another for the limited places available. Social engineering will destroy it.


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/lif...cle6350374.ece

    Now, can anyone explain to me how this is a good idea. It's a long time past but when I went to school it was drummed into us to get the best grades and as many of them as possible. When will these jokers 'get it'?
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  2. #2
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Edukashun, edukashun, edukashun!

    Sounds to me like somebody doesn't understand that Harrison Bergeron was a satire.
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Edukashun, edukashun, edukashun!

    This is why I am getting aiming for a Masters.

    GCSE's, A Level's and Degrees have been argued for cases of dumbing down while Masters so far have been unaffected.
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    ............... Member Scurvy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Edukashun, edukashun, edukashun!

    I'm not sure I like the formula, but the principle is right, if 2 people get the same grades, and have similar UCAS statements/ equivelent, then the person at the 'poorer' school should get the nod, its common sense. The problem comes when the consideration becomes disproportionate.

    I am never convinced by claims that exams are getting easier. It couldn't possibly be that the education system is better, or kids actually work hard As someone who did GCSE's, A-Levels etc. recently, it is never nice to see your hard being written off.

    It is certainly true that A-levels and GCSE's are becoming harder for universities to use in choosing potential students (for whatever reason). I think an A* grade has been added for A-Leveks this year, and I am very much in favour of re-catagorizing the marks into smaller bands (say 90% A*, 80% A etc.)

    Just to note, someone who goes to Private school, and gets a decent set of grades will get into a good University - the issue imo is over the high level universities, the top 5 or so, where everyone is getting straight A's.

    I also have immense sympathy with the government over education. If the results improve, the exams are getting easier/ the syllabus is aimed at exams/ the statistics have been manipulated. If results fall, the government is blamed for decreasing educational standards etc. They can't win.


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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Edukashun, edukashun, edukashun!

    A levels should be so that only the top 5% get As - so all grades have value. As it is anything below a C is worthless, and Bs are not great. Considering the list goes down to F, the distribution is very poorly skewed.

    If this were the case then I would agree that goign to a worse school with the same grades should get in. But in a system where vast numbers all get the same grades this is unfair.

    If I had children at that age I'd send them to a crappy school and pay for private tuition to get the grades.

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    Ultimate Member tibilicus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Edukashun, edukashun, edukashun!

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    A levels should be so that only the top 5% get As - so all grades have value. As it is anything below a C is worthless, and Bs are not great. Considering the list goes down to F, the distribution is very poorly skewed.

    If this were the case then I would agree that goign to a worse school with the same grades should get in. But in a system where vast numbers all get the same grades this is unfair.

    If I had children at that age I'd send them to a crappy school and pay for private tuition to get the grades.


    This man talks sense.

    The fact is that for most courses any University in the top 30 wants at least two A grades.


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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Edukashun, edukashun, edukashun!

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    A levels should be so that only the top 5% get As - so all grades have value.
    It is a stupid idea. The value should be the demonstration of knowledge, not where you are ranked.
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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Edukashun, edukashun, edukashun!

    That's not what A levels are there for. They are there to differentiate candidates.
    It's not like the Theory test for driving where as long as you're over the minimum it's OK (or Medicine, come to think of it...).

    Your system would be OK with everyone having the same grades. So what do universities and employers do then? Most likely construct new exams - utterly undermining the point of A levels. That's stupid.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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    Senior Member Senior Member naut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Edukashun, edukashun, edukashun!

    To all non-British Orgahs the British education system is marked in an exceedingly odd fashion. Due to the "no-fail" policy. You can get 9 GCSEs for example, but they may in fact all be a grade of E which means you got 10%-20% on each of your foundation papers, but you still don't fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scurvy View Post
    I'm not sure I like the formula, but the principle is right, if 2 people get the same grades, and have similar UCAS statements/ equivelent, then the person at the 'poorer' school should get the nod, its common sense. The problem comes when the consideration becomes disproportionate.
    I disagree. Common sense should really be placed in jar next to discarded nonsense. The alternative? Yes it takes more time, but they really should ask both students in for an interview and assess which has the right attitude/determination etc., and then choose on their merits.

    The article seems to be indicating that the Universities have to accept people in the following fashion:

    Two students
    • One who has 3 A* grades from a school with an average A grade applies
    • One who has 3 B* grades from a school with an average D grade applies


    Why should the B* student get the spot? In terms of marks they have only got 40% on a higher level paper or 70% on a foundation paper? It makes no sense! The A* student has got 80%-85% plus on a higher level paper. They are obviously the smarter/more studious student. IF the B* student is actually worthy there should be an alternate means where they can apply and actually have a face to face application where the University can decide if they warrant a spot.

    (A little google fishing seems to indicate this too).
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    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Edukashun, edukashun, edukashun!

    Sorry for being an ignorant yank, but are these A-levels/GCSE tests standardized across the country? Is a student in the worst Manc slum being graded against the same questions as the posh kid in Chelsea?
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    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Edukashun, edukashun, edukashun!

    As a point, both GCSE's and A-levels are basically scrapped in the country, being replaced by a diploma system which will be fully introduced by the time our 11 year olds reach the age of 16.

    GCSE - General Certificate of Secondary Education. This is the national test where everyone in England take the same exams and get graded on. So one person one side of the country gets graded the same as some one else on the other side.

    AS/A - (Advanced Subsidiary and Advanced level) in also the same as GCSE in this regard.
    Last edited by Beskar; 05-28-2009 at 16:07.
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