TWC or the Org?

[Meneldil]

TWC is much more alive regarding mods, strategies and stuff, and I mostly go there to get informations and news mod-wise.

But it also has much more annoying people, 13 yo 'lol u suk' people, and non-english speaking people who are barely understandable.

[PowerWizard]

I visit both forums and comparing them is completely unnecessary. They are fostered by the same community.

[alpaca]

I mostly do ETW modding lately so... TWC for me as the ETW modding area here doesn't seem to have a lot of visitors (put kindly).

Since M2TW mods have just got much more exposure on the TWC... Tosa does his best but it doesn't look like we can have two quality places for modding.

Edit: For better site though, I wouldn't like to make a decision, they both have vantages (ad- and disad-). So I won't vote ;)

[DaVinci]

My view is very different on that topic. I don't vote, but give a personal reflection on that topic.
Given the fact, that i have limited time to organise/work on modding projects and browse through forums, it would be TWC (and i had to do a decision as the SCC site went down, where the Chivalry TW project was hosted primarily).

--

I believe i knew the Org earlier than TWC, at times as M1TW did exist a while, i lurked here the first time (support and mods), and then as RTW came out, short after i registered at Org and on TWC.

TWC then had the RTW-RTR mod presence in those times. That was the thing what kept me at TWC.

Then the TWC hack happened, and other things, the original RTR mod forum was created, where i joined quite early. The RTR forum was then for me the place (as RTW-RTR sitemod creator and member of the TFT mod project, later renamed to FRRE).

The Org at this time was then for me always a place to research for modding guides and tools, but not to post.

TWC was the place to have a little representation of modding efforts, but not to post a lot, because, yes, TWC wasn't a place for modders at this time.
Much too much crazy political things went on there, and non-mod or TW game related discussion was promoted much more than modding things.

All this is until 2005 and partly 2006.

The change on TWC came at the end of 2006, as the TWC site got its complete reform (owner-change etc., as above by others already explained).
Since then, TWC is a quite good place for modders, parallel the RTR-forum was crushed more and more (disappeared, due to the forum-structure-changes, by accident then later completely).
Info for the newbies: The RTR forum site grew to a huge community within the year 2005 (hosted a lot other mod projects), at this time, TWC was a little site only, and the Org was much more a place for modders and mod fans as TWC.

Else:
The non-modding-related things on TWC are of less interest for me, as mainly, the "discussions" (ie. the political mudpit) is of non-mature.
The TWC rep and political etc. system is quite ridicoulous to me, but surely a nice playground for some wanna-be politicians ;) ... i had also a little dispute with 1-2 TWC moderators (those moderators: for me noobs, at this time, what makes the thing much more annoying) who easily gave me 2-times infraction-points, it was partly a thing that i thought about to leave TWC incl. the hosted Chivalry TW project there, where i'm the mod leader since 2006.

The Org has in my view only one problem: Its appearence, the skin and structure - it is not state-of-the-art in my opinion.
TWC has clearly a better structure, although it is that big. The structures are modern forum structures, as it should be. In principle you can't do something wrong if you are searching for something and have not your eyes closed.
Unfortunately i had and have always problems to get through on Org. If the Org would do it in modernised structures, i eventually would prefer the Org, because it is, as a lot other said already above, of a much bigger mature atmosphere, yes.

[Ratbag]

I lurked this site for a while but then I found out about TWC and made an account there.
Don't really know why I like it more over there but I just do! :D

[Prussian to the Iron]

i like the community at TWC, but the mods there are incredibly stupid, ver-zealous and notoriously strict. whereas it is way slower here and the mods are great.


so basically, if you dnt mind being banned for 2 months for saying 'lunatic', TWC is the best.

[Horton III]

What charms does TWC have, other than the fact that it is larger, thus more members and forums, which is itself a double-edged sword? It is disorganized, with the stickies scattered everywhere an in large fonts; the member's avatars need standardising; the sigs are often obnoxious; the spam levels are unbearable; abuse is frequent; mods are cold and uncaring, drunk with their power; there are too many members; there is no a sense of community like in .Org; etc; etc; etc. The lack of standardisation and orderliness is the one that bothers me the most really.

I'll tell you this, the newer (08-09) "junior mods" up to the now senior mods that the ownership chose are terrible. I posted in the administrative forums at the TWC on the subject several times, and both times got an overwhelmingly agreeable response, even from some of the actually decent moderators.

I do like their layout, probably just because that's the first forum I belonged to- period- and got used to it. However, I rarely post anymore over there because the ownership doesn't care about the total war games as much as owning the total war site and running it like a country of some sort. Really a drag.

[Ratbag]

i like the community at TWC, but the mods there are incredibly stupid, ver-zealous and notoriously strict. whereas it is way slower here and the mods are great.


so basically, if you dnt mind being banned for 2 months for saying 'lunatic', TWC is the best.

The mods at TWC need to be stricter then here because the community is bigger, it would go bad if they didn't do it.

[DaVinci]

If you guys say "mods" you mean moderators, if i say "mod" or "mods" i mean modding projects. Just for the record in relation to my post and the next ones.

The mods at TWC need to be stricter then here because the community is bigger, it would go bad if they didn't do it.

That depends on certain things. Often newby members become a moderator on TWC and imo. missusing their power. Often TWC moderators have a huge lack of sensibility for the things and relations on TWC. But that's a logical concequence, as the TWC administration is lucky to get overall some staff. It is like in the real world. Bad and good cops.

[Aradan]

They mean moderators. Which are frankly under way more pressure on TWC than they are here and are given way too little credit.


TWC is (almost) back now.

[DaVinci]

TWC is (almost) back now.

Nice, it is back now.

[Prussian to the Iron]

The mods at TWC need to be stricter then here because the community is bigger, it would go bad if they didn't do it.

if they weren't so strict it wouldnt be so horrible. see below:

I'll tell you this, the newer (08-09) "junior mods" up to the now senior mods that the ownership chose are terrible. I posted in the administrative forums at the TWC on the subject several times, and both times got an overwhelmingly agreeable response, even from some of the actually decent moderators.

I do like their layout, probably just because that's the first forum I belonged to- period- and got used to it. However, I rarely post anymore over there because the ownership doesn't care about the total war games as much as owning the total war site and running it like a country of some sort. Really a drag.

i agree 100%. in fact, yur story is exactly the same as mine. the mods there are horrible and do not believe in redemption or repreive, nor sensibility or justice.

and the fact that they can deny an appeal even though they have no evidence to prove any wrong-doing is only worsened by the fact that there are only a few who decide all appeal cases, and are often biased.

[Pannonian]

i like the community at TWC, but the mods there are incredibly stupid, ver-zealous and notoriously strict. whereas it is way slower here and the mods are great.


so basically, if you dnt mind being banned for 2 months for saying 'lunatic', TWC is the best.

The lesson is to accept whatever penalties are given, rather than constantly try to get around it. People get banned for less here, yet people complain of over-zealous moderation at TWC. The difference is that, with a more mature population here, one is less inclined to misbehave.

And yes, if you try to get around your penalties again, it will continue piling on. Note the length of your suspension, and serve it.

[Pannonian]

Well, it certainly has far more :) That's part of the problem to me. It seems the off-topic "tavern" area of TWC has grown to dominate or at least rival the purpose of the site: modding and playing TW games and providing a community to discuss the same. That really dilutes the site for me, as if two sites exist in one.

Having said that, the TWC has vastly improved since the modding community virtually threatened to leave it after the last debacle a few years ago now - I might say mainly due to modders becoming involved in the organization and administering of the site. Just to give you an idea of how under-rated modders were, TWC officially asked its members to rep modders because the only people who got any rep were those in the off-topic area. Alas, you are still more likely to get rep that way at TWC which kind of shows the focus of the largely less-mature (or at least less TW-focused) members. I do not care for rep ( have it switched off) bit it is a sign of where people's attitudes lie.

The Org was my home before TWC and I have only frequented that latter site more because of the reality that more modders and a bigger audience exist. I still see the Org as the academic centre for TW guides, modding and historical research - and TWC as the place to display one's wares...though it is getting better. Although it's great that modders have helped achieve this it's also sad that they have had to do it because they are spending less time modding...

AFAICS TWC was less mod-friendly than it might have been because the focus of administration and the source of staff were mainly in non-TW areas. Since imb39's takeover in early 2007, there has been a conscious effort to make TWC as mod-friendly as possible, to the point where the equivalent of the Tavern, which used to be so dominant in the past, has become some sort of red headed stepchild.

[Flavius Merobaudes]

I clearly prefer the ORG. I was here at first and then joined TWC for some mods, but the more time I spent there, the more it became clear that it's mainly a spot for politizing lunatics. I'm glad there's no mudpit here at the ORG...

[Aemilius Paulus]

Ugh, half my posts on that site are gone. As is my newly-earned rep. That's it. I take back all the good things I said about TWC. No reason to have rep if it disappears every time the site goes down. Not all of the posts disappeared, but much of them, including numerous threads that were made wayyy before the site went down. Not cool.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I'm glad there's no mudpit here at the ORG...

There is. It is called the Backroom. And I like the TWC Political Mudpit much better than the .Org one. In here, not a single person can be found who agrees with my views.

Not only that, but I dislike the general atmosphere of the Backroom, as well as the fact that it is the most pointless place on this site. People just ramble and ramble while no-one cares about what they say; nor agree with any of it.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Calm down young man. I had that rep and post problem waay back years ago, yet I'm still content. These things happen, all you have to do is carry on.

[Cultured Drizzt fan]

There is. It is called the Backroom. And I like the TWC Political Mudpit much better than the .Org one. In here, not a single person can be found who agrees with my views.

Not only that, but I dislike the general atmosphere of the Backroom, as well as the fact that it is the most pointless place on this site. People just ramble and ramble while no-one cares about what they say; nor agree with any of it.

Why would having people agree with you be important? if everyone agreed on things then there would be no point in discussing it. the point of discussion is to see if your views are actually valid, see if you are able to persuade others to your point of view, or perhaps you are in fact wrong, and you find that others have brought you around to their point of view. maybe I just like debate and I am wrong, but that is how I see it.

[Augustus Lucifer]

Alas, you are still more likely to get rep that way at TWC which kind of shows the focus of the largely less-mature (or at least less TW-focused) members.

Perhaps, but I would say that it's 50/50 at least. You're more likely to get some reps here and there if you post witty comments or comprehensive retorts in a non-TW area. Many of my reputation on TWC comes from my witticisms. At the same time you can amass an unruly amount of it from preview and release threads of mods, especially if you're the one who posted the thread. I've probably gotten 20 reputation points per preview, and some of the more prolific mods like SS have garnered 50 or so. It's a somewhat flawed system, but it's fun nonetheless and never hurts to see someone enjoyed your post as much as you enjoyed typing it.

I might make a post about my impression of the sites later, but for now I have a Lakers game to watch. Go Lakers!

[Aemilius Paulus]

Why would having people agree with you be important? if everyone agreed on things then there would be no point in discussing it. the point of discussion is to see if your views are actually valid, see if you are able to persuade others to your point of view, or perhaps you are in fact wrong, and you find that others have brought you around to their point of view. maybe I just like debate and I am wrong, but that is how I see it.

Look, I would be thankful if I had at least one person who would agree with me. Do not be naive, if there would be that many people who would agree with me, then something would be wrong.

[White_eyes:D]

Never liked the TWC.....I wonder why? I guess because I always stick with something to the end....I found the Org. first. Loved it....never want to leave until it dies...even though I do have an account at TWC...I just never use it>.>

[Beefy187]

There is. It is called the Backroom. And I like the TWC Political Mudpit much better than the .Org one. In here, not a single person can be found who agrees with my views.

Not only that, but I dislike the general atmosphere of the Backroom, as well as the fact that it is the most pointless place on this site. People just ramble and ramble while no-one cares about what they say; nor agree with any of it.

Ramble and ramble is the great part.
I occasionally lurk there and get surprised at how many point of view users can come up with. Sometimes I take them down on notes I can think about it later.

Anyways I had a little read about TWC just then. It was really facinating and refreshing to read the talk of ownerships and so on, as I never witnessed one in my life... As Org was the first forum I really loved and those things havn't happened here.

I think TWC is lot closer to real life democratic world. With systemized way to govern the posters, facinating personalities of the mods and power of the masses.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The org is better because it is not as overrun by people like me and Meth.

[Meneldil]

i agree 100%. in fact, yur story is exactly the same as mine. the mods there are horrible and do not believe in redemption or repreive, nor sensibility or justice.

and the fact that they can deny an appeal even though they have no evidence to prove any wrong-doing is only worsened by the fact that there are only a few who decide all appeal cases, and are often biased.

You don't get all this appeal and other pseudo-democratic crap on the Org. When you have too much warning points, or misbehave too often, you're banned, period.
Most complains about moderation made in the watchtower end up with even more flame and warning points.
But then, there are less issues, mostly because the community is smaller and more mature on the org.

You misbehaved on TWC and got kicked. Get over it and stop blaming the mods, who are doing a pretty good job given the insane amount of crap and flame posted on TWC daily.

Edit: while I'm at it,

- the rep system of TWC is crap, and so is the whole "son of xxxx, father of yyyyy, consularis, whateverotherstupidlatintitleyoucanthinkof". What with the title crazyness ? Who cares about your achievements and relations on a total-war related forum ? Seriously people...
- the backroom is much better than TWC political forum, filled with "traitors douchebags", "nazi scums" and what not. Most people there can't speak a proper (ie. readable) english, and the one who do are more often than not so stupidly pedantic they make me want to slap them in the face repeatedly.

[Dol Guldur]

A rep system, perhaps, is not necessarily bad. My point was that the way it is assigned reflects the focus of the members of a site.

I think it's probably fair to say that I have built and released more TW mods than probably any other TW modder (I'm willing to be corrected!) but it's rare I ever got any rep for doing so on any release. Rep has largely come from a rare post in the off-topic areas or from some witty remark.

Members do give rep for graphically-rich previews (which is not my style - I like to make a mod fast enough that it does not have or need a preview!) but many of these previews are for mods that are never even released...

I realize, with a prime expertise in coding, it is not such a visible skill and yet coding, debugging and balancing take up an amount of time that vastly exceeds that spent creating the models and textures of previews.

I reckoned I personally spent about 3000 hours on Corsair Invasion (FATW's first module) - add to that the time spent on Forth Eorlingas, The New Shadow, Title of Liberty, Gods & Fighting Men, Multi-Mod Sampler, The Dwarven Blunderbuss, EB 1.0 modfoldering, The New Shadow for RTW, Rome in Middle-earth, Viking Invasion II and - most recently - Dominion of Britannia and it scares me to think how much time I have given to the darn hobby over the last 5 years. Rep points for releasing these mods? I've not worked it out, but I could probably get the same amount in the off-topic area in a week or two if I tried...

It has got better, yes, but the focus of TWC is, imho, not good for TW modding/playing yet. Maybe it will improve still further, but I doubt that will happen unless there is a long, hard look at the nature and purpose of the site and what the structure (inc. rep, patronage, awards and offices) really should represent and credit. My badge at the Org for outstanding modding means a lot more to me than the TWC opifex badge, simply because of the nature of the site's focus and thus the meaning behind such things.

[Andres]

The Org was the first forum I registered an account at and I kinda stuck around. I did create an account on the TWC a while ago, but for some reason it doesn't appeal to me like the Org does. Probably just a matter of taste.

However, during the most recent troubles with the Org being down, the TWC showed a heartwarming hospitality and there seem to be a lot of very decent members over there as well. It's certainly a very nice community, but they have their "little somethings".

For starters, I always wondered why they bothered with this tribunal and a possibility to appeal against a warning in public like it is a real law suit. It seems a bit silly and it attracts the kind of people who like making trouble or who think that being on a forum is all about playing lawyer and nitpicking on forum rules while in the end, apart from some technicalities, it's just common sense and nothing else to understand what behaviour is expected.

Also, it creates extra work for staff which are all, I assume, volunteers just like here. I guess they don't mind the extra workload.

But I must say that from the couple of "cases" I bothered to read, moderators responded to their resident troublemakers civilised, with respect and as friendly as possible (not always easy when people just insult you by calling you "noob" or "incredibly stupid") and warnings that were indeed wrong, have been reversed, so they don't mind admitting a mistake, which is a good thing.

I feel neutral about the rep thing, but it's a feature some people will enjoy. I look at it like I look at postcount, I think. Some think it's important and think having a high postcount makes a member important, while in fact, it doesn't really matter. I think it's the same with rep. I couldn't care less, but I must admit that it's nice to notice that somebody really enjoyed one of your posts. However, if there wouldn't be "rep", members over there would probably just post "nice post" or a laughing smiley or a thumbsup, which has the same effect.

Anyway, the approach is different, the style is different and of course, the size (as in number of active members) is different. They stick to their principles and allthough I don't really agree with all of it (certainly not the elections and tribunal things), I see their point and I think they're doing just fine.

It's a nice place to hang around, but it's not my favourite

[FactionHeir]

Of these two sites, I made an account here first and found the reception to be warmer as well. The only reason I made an accoun at TWC a year back was to chat with a fellow modder, but the whole TWC layout does not appeal to me.

Overall, patrons are quite mature and well-behaved here, with few exceptions, and a good discussion can be had about anything with minimal flaming.

While there are more mods at the TWC, great ones are found at the ORG.

Reputation system is a nice thing to have, but if its user awarded for all kinds of things, then its not useful. The Senior Member title we have at the ORG seems a lot more sensible in rewarding outstanding contributions.

So I voted ORG

[Pannonian]

The Org was the first forum I registered an account at and I kinda stuck around. I did create an account on the TWC a while ago, but for some reason it doesn't appeal to me like the Org does. Probably just a matter of taste.

However, during the most recent troubles with the Org being down, the TWC showed a heartwarming hospitality and there seem to be a lot of very decent members over there as well. It's certainly a very nice community, but they have their "little somethings".

For starters, I always wondered why they bothered with this tribunal and a possibility to appeal against a warning in public like it is a real law suit. It seems a bit silly and it attracts the kind of people who like making trouble or who think that being on a forum is all about playing lawyer and nitpicking on forum rules while in the end, apart from some technicalities, it's just common sense and nothing else to understand what behaviour is expected.

Also, it creates extra work for staff which are all, I assume, volunteers just like here. I guess they don't mind the extra workload.

But I must say that from the couple of "cases" I bothered to read, moderators responded to their resident troublemakers civilised, with respect and as friendly as possible (not always easy when people just insult you by calling you "noob" or "incredibly stupid") and warnings that were indeed wrong, have been reversed, so they don't mind admitting a mistake, which is a good thing.

From imb39's buyout and reforms onwards, there has been a drive to professionalise staff as far as is possible with a volunteer basis, so that nowadays, staff have clear guidelines on how to respond to situations, and administration is driven by policy rather than personality.

The Tribunal and other groups within TWC were created at a time when there was a disconnect between site owner, administrators, and users. Back then, AFAIK (I wasn't a TWCer back then, and only know of this through reading the archives), there were constant pushes for a community-based administration. Nowadays, the owner is around enough to be easily accessible, while the staff has grown enough, with considerable recruitment from and delegation to the community, that the administration is no longer so remote. Nonetheless, there are certain groups that are still useful enough to continue, taking some of the burden off staff. While the Tribunal may be a source of much bother for moderators, its existence as an independent body keeps staff on their toes, and reassures members that abuse of power will not go unchecked.

I feel neutral about the rep thing, but it's a feature some people will enjoy. I look at it like I look at postcount, I think. Some think it's important and think having a high postcount makes a member important, while in fact, it doesn't really matter. I think it's the same with rep. I couldn't care less, but I must admit that it's nice to notice that somebody really enjoyed one of your posts. However, if there wouldn't be "rep", members over there would probably just post "nice post" or a laughing smiley or a thumbsup, which has the same effect.

The real kudos lies, not in the amount of credit given by the community, but who gives it. Thus moderating staff is a fairly tightknit community, with the work they do mostly unseen by the general membership, but among those who've actually taken part, hard work is recognised by their peers.

[Prussian to the Iron]

The lesson is to accept whatever penalties are given, rather than constantly try to get around it. People get banned for less here, yet people complain of over-zealous moderation at TWC. The difference is that, with a more mature population here, one is less inclined to misbehave.

And yes, if you try to get around your penalties again, it will continue piling on. Note the length of your suspension, and serve it.

i am not even going to go back to that PoS website. i keep getting banned for no reason(says something about an alt?!?!) then get pissed. so if anything, i might actually do what im accused of and make some alts just to piss off the idiotic mods at TWC. you can count on it.