Animal rights

[Xiahou]

I didn't equate them, so...

You have the mistaken assumption that bullfights are about enjoying the pain of the matador or bull--do you think people watch boxing because they like seeing people in pain? I suppose the only reason people watch nascar is for the car crashes.

Yeah, I'd say bullfighting boils down to slowly killing the animal the same way that boxing boils down to people punching the crap out of each other. People can root for their favorite personalities and enjoy the skill shown by the participants, but the point and end result is to kill the bull. That's why you go- to see a man slowly kill a bull. At least in boxing, both participants are consenting. I'm sure in traditional bull-fighting areas it's also used as a hub for social gatherings and interactions, but the end purpose of it all is still the same.

I can accept "cruelty"- for a necessary purpose. Does hunting involve pain and suffering for animals? I think yes- in many cases. But at least that serves a population management purpose and also serves as food to the hunters in addition to the "sport" of it.

If someone wants to go hunting, blow the kneecaps off a deer and let it lie their struggling until his buddies can gather around and watch him finish it off with a sword- then I would have a problem with it.

If you took a brain scan of someone enjoying a spectacle and scan of someone enjoying a steak how different would they be? Doesn't our feeling of enjoyment come from a certain chemical regardless of what we're enjoying? Dopamine or something? I don't know much about brain chemistry.

Who cares? It's not the fact that people are enjoying themselves that's at issue. I don't mind if someone enjoys their steak- I just prefer it that that cow it came from was killed as quickly and painlessly as feasible.

But once you stop equating animal experience to human experience then it is a question of how anthropocentric you are willing to be. Is it ok to to keep your dog chained up? Peoples gut tells them yes, just like it tells them that bullfights are wrong. But if you actually wanted to think about it you would have to come up with some criteria for determining when it is ok. You can't just rely on your moral instinct, because people generally don't do things they consider wrong...most criminals have justified their own actions and feel they are ok.

I think a dog would prefer to be allowed to roam free, sure. But what's the purpose for chaining it? To keep it from getting run over by a car, or from killing or being killed by another dog, or even to keep it from attacking a person. Is it needlessly cruel to chain a dog for its protection and the protection of others? Of course not. You keep wildly tossing out these examples, but I fail to see how any are analogous with bull fighting.

A good analogy might be dog fighting...but then those are also viewed pretty universally as cruel too, so that may not help your case much.