Official EB Tournement Thread

[Maion Maroneios]

Do you know what I actually don't understand? Isn't it natural for the Sweboz to die like flies when their soldiers are unarmoured? That's just the nature of their military, I don't really understand why you guys are so obsessed with bringing everyone down to the same level. If you want a "fair" fight with the Sweboz, just make sure you fight a battle in woods or something. Ambushes, anyone? The purpose of this Tournament, as far as I've understood, is just to put all factions together and determine the winner through some restrictions that are the same for all factions. By bringing everyone to the same level, you loose the point of the whole Tournament.

Why give one chevron to factions that have cheap armies? Why give weapon upgrades to factions that have unarmoured troops? And you know who gets the short end of the stick in the end, don't you? I personally don't really care wether I get my arse handed to me (which is most probably going to be the case if I face a chevroned and weapon upgraded army while having less money to spend if the cap is reduced to 35,000), but for Christs' sake try to keep things a bit realistic here. Rules like restricting elites, heavy cavalry and the like is good, I applaud that. Also, don't anyone mention the phalanx exploit because everyone with a considerable amount of sanity knows this is simply a cheat and it's banning is rational to say the least.

Do you want a solution from me? Implement the defender-chooses-his-battleground system. Because I know simply shouting the rule system is wrong is not right and won't get anywere. The only thing I ask you to do, at least, is to simply consider my points and aknowledge that what you're doing is bringing all factions down to the same level. Every faction has its own weaknesses and strong points, that's just the way things are no matter what you want to believe. The Romans didn't beat the Macedonians because they had better quality armies per se (which they did, by the way), but because they were more prepared, has must greater resources and the determination to keep coming back.

But if you still refuse to listen to me and take those fingers out of your ears, I guess there is no other option left that to actually let you see what is going to happen practically if those rules are implemented. And I want to see if you're going to have the guts to admit you were wrong then, because I'm almost certain our victory percentages are going to fall at least above 40%. Just to show you, I'm probably going to fight several battles with some mates with the new rules, and show you the results.

Maion

[Phalanx300]

Do you know what I actually don't understand? Isn't it natural for the Sweboz to die like flies when their soldiers are unarmoured? That's just the nature of their military, I don't really understand why you guys are so obsessed with bringing everyone down to the same level. If you want a "fair" fight with the Sweboz, just make sure you fight a battle in woods or something. Ambushes, anyone? The purpose of this Tournament, as far as I've understood, is just to put all factions together and determine the winner through some restrictions that are the same for all factions. By bringing everyone to the same level, you loose the point of the whole Tournament.

Why give one chevron to factions that have cheap armies? Why give weapon upgrades to factions that have unarmoured troops? And you know who gets the short end of the stick in the end, don't you? I personally don't really care wether I get my arse handed to me (which is most probably going to be the case if I face a chevroned and weapon upgraded army while having less money to spend if the cap is reduced to 35,000), but for Christs' sake try to keep things a bit realistic here. Rules like restricting elites, heavy cavalry and the like is good, I applaud that. Also, don't anyone mention the phalanx exploit because everyone with a considerable amount of sanity knows this is simply a cheat and it's banning is rational to say the least.

Do you want a solution from me? Implement the defender-chooses-his-battleground system. Because I know simply shouting the rule system is wrong is not right and won't get anywere. The only thing I ask you to do, at least, is to simply consider my points and aknowledge that what you're doing is bringing all factions down to the same level. Every faction has its own weaknesses and strong points, that's just the way things are no matter what you want to believe. The Romans didn't beat the Macedonians because they had better quality armies per se (which they did, by the way), but because they were more prepared, has must greater resources and the determination to keep coming back.

But if you still refuse to listen to me and take those fingers out of your ears, I guess there is no other option left that to actually let you see what is going to happen practically if those rules are implemented. And I want to see if you're going to have the guts to admit you were wrong then, because I'm almost certain our victory percentages are going to fall at least above 40%. Just to show you, I'm probably going to fight several battles with some mates with the new rules, and show you the results.

Maion

If they did die like flies then they wouldn't be that much feared by the Celts and Romans now would they?

And Anti is playing a Hellenic faction himself so he knows very well whats he's doing.

[Maion Maroneios]

If they did die like flies then they wouldn't be that much feared by the Celts and Romans now would they?

And Anti is playing a Hellenic faction himself so he knows very well whats he's doing.

Did anyone fight them with an abudant number of javelineers and/or archers on a flat, non-forested terrain in any fight? I believe the fear was due to their ambushes, were they excell.

ASM doesn't play all factions, so he can't have a spherical oppinion on this.

Maion

[Phalanx300]

Did anyone fight them with an abudant number of javelineers and/or archers on a flat, non-forested terrain in any fight? I believe the fear was due to their ambushes, were they excell.

ASM doesn't play all factions, so he can't have a spherical oppinion on this.

Maion

They applied many tactics, and they did face the Romans and Celts head on in the open, Cimbri for example, treatening Rome and defeating them many times.

You seem to mistake them for the Lusotannan who's main tactic is ambush.

You talked about him putting Hellenes at disadvantage, he's a Hellene himself so knows very well what he's doing. He also was playing as a Roman in the last tourney.

[Maion Maroneios]

...

Maion

[antisocialmunky]

Did anyone fight them with an abudant number of javelineers and/or archers on a flat, non-forested terrain in any fight? I believe the fear was due to their ambushes, were they excell.

ASM doesn't play all factions, so he can't have a spherical oppinion on this.

Maion

Yeah they die horribly if they get strung out. That's why I limited skirmishers. To be honest, mass skirmisher harass isn't that effective since your opponent can just hold until you're out of ammunition.

...

Maion

We could just trash the weapons upgrades, keep the chevrons, give all the N barbarians 8 elites, and allow barb players to quit maps without trees. I think also that the 36K price point is pretty balanced by itself but the barbarians really need an extra something to make up for the fact that they can't mass effectively. Besides, the N barbarians should be able to fight set piece battles to a certain extent. They certainly did many times and relied on mass, shock, and mobility:

-Brennus brought ~150K men into Greece in his campaign.
-Cimbri numbered as many as 200K during their initial migration into Roman lands.
-Gaeasatae numbered around 70K during their expedition in Italy.

You're asking for a double standard: The greeks have the ability to field the pinnicle of Hellenic armies, an Alexandrian Phalanx and supporting troops, while the N barbarians can't create huge masses of levy troops twice the size of the Mediterranian armies... Instead you want them to only be able to field armies that are small and have crap morale. That's like forcing the the Hellens to play at 30K where the Greeks get stomped.

That's not to say that they didn't use smaller armies with a larger professional core or anything like that...

Its too bad that the Getai and Sweboz players aren't around to help us test.

@Phalanx - Can oyu kick all the inactives in EBOT01?

[darius_d]

I don't want to mess more, but maybe one of solution is to limit hellens (and perhaps Romans and Cartaginians) to 18 units, keeping the same budget as all others? This would create numerical advantage for barbs/eastern.


Besides, I hope some people from EB core team follow multiplayer and tournament topics and possibly next EB 1.x update can make a whole difference on multiplayer settings. I encourage all of you guys to make a helpful wishlist, so that this wonderful mod can live long.

[Apázlinemjó]

I don't want to mess more, but maybe one of solution is to limit hellens (and perhaps Romans and Cartaginians) to 18 units, keeping the same budget as all others? This would create numerical advantage for barbs/eastern.

Now that's a good idea. 36K and Hellenes and Romans can use 18 units maximum, that means they don't lose quality, but numbers only, which is quite fair to other 'weaker' factions.

[Maion Maroneios]

Have you ever thought of multiple armies?

Maion

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

Last night a dream give me this strange solution:

MAKE FIXED FORMATIONS:

for example who use romani must do this formations: 1 general,4 triarii, 5 principes, 4 hastati, 2 equites and 2 accensi;

who use makedonia must do : 1 general, 2 hatairoi, 6 phalanx, 2 cretan arc, 4 classical hoplites, 2peltastai

who use lusitani must do: 1 general, 2 iberi lancearii, 2 slingers, 2 ambushers, 4 scutari, 4 caetrati, 2 asturian axmen

ecc

We test this formation before starting tounament... of course

So, in this way, we solve all problems about elites, cheating, balance of faction, mnai, ecc

In this way, we make general more important than faction he choose. And the winner is best general, not best faction (that is hellenic thanks phalanx/hetairoi/cretan combination).

[Apázlinemjó]

Do you know what I actually don't understand? Isn't it natural for the Sweboz to die like flies when their soldiers are unarmoured? That's just the nature of their military, I don't really understand why you guys are so obsessed with bringing everyone down to the same level. If you want a "fair" fight with the Sweboz, just make sure you fight a battle in woods or something. Ambushes, anyone? The purpose of this Tournament, as far as I've understood, is just to put all factions together and determine the winner through some restrictions that are the same for all factions. By bringing everyone to the same level, you loose the point of the whole Tournament.

Why give one chevron to factions that have cheap armies? Why give weapon upgrades to factions that have unarmoured troops? And you know who gets the short end of the stick in the end, don't you? I personally don't really care wether I get my arse handed to me (which is most probably going to be the case if I face a chevroned and weapon upgraded army while having less money to spend if the cap is reduced to 35,000), but for Christs' sake try to keep things a bit realistic here. Rules like restricting elites, heavy cavalry and the like is good, I applaud that. Also, don't anyone mention the phalanx exploit because everyone with a considerable amount of sanity knows this is simply a cheat and it's banning is rational to say the least.

Do you want a solution from me? Implement the defender-chooses-his-battleground system. Because I know simply shouting the rule system is wrong is not right and won't get anywere. The only thing I ask you to do, at least, is to simply consider my points and aknowledge that what you're doing is bringing all factions down to the same level. Every faction has its own weaknesses and strong points, that's just the way things are no matter what you want to believe. The Romans didn't beat the Macedonians because they had better quality armies per se (which they did, by the way), but because they were more prepared, has must greater resources and the determination to keep coming back.

But if you still refuse to listen to me and take those fingers out of your ears, I guess there is no other option left that to actually let you see what is going to happen practically if those rules are implemented. And I want to see if you're going to have the guts to admit you were wrong then, because I'm almost certain our victory percentages are going to fall at least above 40%. Just to show you, I'm probably going to fight several battles with some mates with the new rules, and show you the results.

Maion

I agree with the first part. The purpose of this tournament was to show the differences of the factions' military weak and strong points.

[darius_d]

Argumentation that barbarians should die like flies would be indeed reasonable - but only if other historical condition is also met - that barbarians are present by sheer numbers on battlefield.
Since it is simply not possible in EB, and actually this is hellens who dominate also numerically - thanks to their big phalanx units - then favoring barbarians in some way is rather out of question.

My thinking now is to keep 40 000 budget - that way barbarians can spend not only for additional elites but also more units can get 1 chevron.


I like most of these rules, but not all. My biggest complain is the way to determine elite(/heavy) when descriptions do not help. But not only.

So for example:

1) Praetorian Cavalry - is it Medium or Heavy?
They throw javelins and skirmish, so apparently they are Medium, according to these rules.
But since Romans are cheap and can afford 1 chevron for most units, then upgraded Praetorian Cav reaches truly elite level in Cav vs Cav battles. They are beaten only by strong elites after long time defence, and can inflict serious damage when charging.
So if they are Medium - I dont like the idea. It means Roman can field up to 5 "medium" but indeed pumped by chevron to heavy/elite units, and still can recruit 6 foot elites.

So maybe cavalry/elephants should not be upgraded.

2) How to determine elite archer/slinger when description do not help?
Or - do we count archers/slingers at all as elites?

---------------------------

Maybe this rule could be helpful for victory conditions:
- when there is 2 game crashes or disconnetions by the same player during a battle, the winner is his opponent.

[Alsatia]

Which Hamachi severs will be used for the tournament?

[Knight of Heaven]

1) Praetorian Cavalry - is it Medium or Heavy?
They throw javelins and skirmish, so apparently they are Medium, according to these rules.
But since Romans are cheap and can afford 1 chevron for most units, then upgraded Praetorian Cav reaches truly elite level in Cav vs Cav battles. They are beaten only by strong elites after long time defence, and can inflict serious damage when charging.
So if they are Medium - I dont like the idea. It means Roman can field up to 5 "medium" but indeed pumped by chevron to heavy/elite units, and still can recruit 6 foot elites.

So maybe cavalry/elephants should not be upgraded.

2) How to determine elite archer/slinger when description do not help?
Or - do we count archers/slingers at all as elites?

I belive praetorians were elite, even in cav, it doesnt matter if they trow javelins. historicaly praetorians were a elite troop implemented by Augustus. so.

i have a opinion related to archers and slingers, is they shouldnt be considered elite, i mean archery wasnt a main role in warfare at the time, main exception was steep factions i belive, alltough i belive they shouldnt considered as elite for other factions that are not steepe, it should have numbers restrictions.

I'm not trying to make everyone super balanced atleast I'd like to think that. The main reason for giving the Germans and Getai that weapon upgrade was to preserve their weakness to missiles but allow them to make up for one of their advantages: numbers. Do you think it would be as easy to win if the Germans or Getai decided to bring 30-40 units against you? Their budget and unit costs would allow it BUT they aren't allowed to. How is THAT fair to them? The problem with the tournement is that it was based on the assumption that the game is funnest with 20 unit armies. That is true. Its epic and fun, balanced on the micromanagement front, but its not balanced numbers wise. The best solution would be to use a custom edu that gave them bigger units @ scaled up price.

I mean, it wasn't 16K Greeks against 12K Persians at Gaugamela was it?

I agree with this.

[Flavius_Belisarius]

I would join Arche Seleukia.

Edit.: I already played some Eb online battles and i think i have a good overview of the balance. Barbarains should get in my opinion more men in each company too otherwise they dont can stand against romans and hellens. Roman legionarys are way to cheap, they even defeat phalanx units like agryaspidy in a longer melee. The same is for dismounted pretorians. And the phalanx units of the hellenistic factions arent really a advantage for them because even factions like phartia gets phalanx units (Merchanry). And the elite phalanx units arent hardly stronger than the merchanery one.

[Flavius_Belisarius]

I have a few questions. So when i play as Arche Seleukia i can take maximal 5 cavalry? Do i have to join EBOT01 or EBOT02?

[Alsatia]

Read the rules, and you can join any of the below:

EBOT01
EBOT02
EBOT03

Passwords for all three is EB (but EBOT01 is always full......)

[Flavius_Belisarius]

I read the rules several times but was not sure, anyway now im sure.

[Flavius_Belisarius]

I ready the rules but i want to be 100% sure. So its maximal allowed to upgrade ONE expierence and no weapon or armor upgrade ?

[JinandJuice]

Aye, since the rules have been changed, I guess I'll have to switch from AS to Roma now. So please sign me up for Roma.

[antisocialmunky]

You weren't registered in this thread :-p. BTW- I've started to post the unit lists. I'm doing it alphabetically, you might want to check it out if you're the 'A' factions or Rome.

[JinandJuice]

Well thx regardless. btw, some small questions:

Can Roma use Cohors Reformata instead of Cohors Imperatoria in the Imperial Reforms? I have a little trouble running the Imperatoria units because they're so detailed. Considering that the 2 units have exactly the same stats, I'd rather have the unit that doesn't lag out my computer when I zoom in. Although historically inaccurate, I think what matters more is player performance, especially when the stats are exactly the same.

Are Sagittari Auxilia and Heavy Auxiliary Infantry considered mercenary/allied units?

And you mentioned heavy gallic cavalry as mercenary units, but are light gallic cavalry merc units as well?

[antisocialmunky]

1)Go for it. They are identical AFAIK. If anything htey have lower morale...
2)Factional like hte EB site
3)If its not on the list, its merc/allied.

[Flavius_Belisarius]

@Antisocialmunky

Could you please anwer my last question which i asked at the very end on the second site of this thread.

[naiveharry]

I will be playing EB tournament under the name "Hiero" with the faction Koinon Hellenon .
I am ready to play and on hamachi networks under the name admin-PC.

[vartan]

Dude change your Hamachi nickname to Hiero as well, just go to preferences to change it.

[Phalanx300]

I'm wondering, also thanks to Hiero here , maybe we should allow certain units like Syrakousoi Hoplitai as factional units for certain factions? Meaning Syrakousoi Hoplitai would be counted as a Koinen Hellenon factional unit, for those who wish to represent an Syracusian army.

[vartan]

I'm wondering, also thanks to Hiero here , maybe we should allow certain units like Syrakousoi Hoplitai as factional units for certain factions? Meaning Syrakousoi Hoplitai would be counted as a Koinen Hellenon factional unit, for those who wish to represent an Syracusian army.

But Syracuse wasn't part of the Koinon Hellenon of the 3rd century BC IIRC. Wouldn't that make Syrakousai Hoplitai mercs?

[NeoSpartan]

YO FELLAS!!!!!!! Old EB MP guy here, from the days it 1st became available back in .8x. I have not played in Online in a LONG time though

Sing me up on this B***ch.

I now have some free time to play some EB! I am not sure what my actual times will be, but there is now a lot of people playing online so it should not matter

Anywho... The faction I plan to play is the AEDUI,

I my hamachi name is 1stNeoSpartan


....now lets get this B**** ON!

[antisocialmunky]

Good luck, Casse's pretty touch to beat but I'm not sure how hte barbs will fair with the current rules.

BTW - Since this has become fairly successful this first time around, I'm wondering about possibly doing this regularly. Does anyone know how to petition for a forum or anything like that? We really need one since there are alot of independent threads and such.

I dunno, I was just asked about it the other day.