Hoplitai too weak ?

[Flavius_Belisarius]

Hoplitais are in my opinion too weak. They dont have any chance to win against a phalanx, they dont have any chance to win against heavy infantery and normal hoplitais are way more expensiver. Especially the spartan and armored elite one. I know that spears should be weak against sword and shield units but i thougth that hoplitais are effectiv against such melee combat units because of their phalanx formation.

[mountaingoat]

not sure , i do know that most if not any AP will eat them up ... not much stands in way of the falx though.


they just seem good for holding the line ...

[Mediteran]

i think they are fine as they are..

[Flavius_Belisarius]

Fine ^^ Is it really fine that the strongest warriors of the ancient era, the spartans, are loosing against a half naked barbarain sword unit.

[Celtic_Punk]

what the hell are you talking about? The hoplites are fine. In fact I find they destroy Phalanxes.

[Mediteran]

Fine ^^ Is it really fine that the strongest warriors of the ancient era, the spartans, are loosing against a half naked barbarain sword unit.

actually, they were not the strongest in that period. 200 years ago? maybe


and also, i find they are pretty good in game anyway

[Flavius_Belisarius]

Thanks for the numerous informations. So when i fight with Hoplitais i have to switch to guard mode and let them stay.

One of you mentioned that Hoplitais are was more flexible than phalangitais, but thats a bit crappy, phalangitais were way more flexible because hoplitais formation was only a long slow unflexible line. Phalangitais formation was divided in many smaller squares.

actually, they were not the strongest in that period. 200 years ago? maybe


and also, i find they are pretty good in game anyway

I know but this is Sparta.

[Maion Maroneios]

Hoplitais are in my opinion too weak. They dont have any chance to win against a phalanx, they dont have any chance to win against heavy infantery and normal hoplitais are way more expensiver. Especially the spartan and armored elite one. I know that spears should be weak against sword and shield units but i thougth that hoplitais are effectiv against such melee combat units because of their phalanx formation.

1) Phalangites are supposed to beat Hoplitai
2) Hoplitai are way more flexible than phalangites
3) Hoplitai in guard mode are tanks and can withstand a pike phalanx forever
4) Hoplitai are very cost effective
5) Hoplitai have excellent defense and morale
6) They are not made to withstand heavy/elite/AP infantry
7) Spartiatai and Epilektoi are expensive because they are elite hoplites
8) The phalanx formation has a very specific role: Break the enemy through attrition, not kill them fast

Maion

[Celtic_Punk]

You forgot to mention they aren't weak and don't suck.

I've won countless unwinnable battles by planting regular hoplitai in a road and won against countless stacks just because i had 2 units of hoplites. any other unit and I'd have perished. 2 units against a fullstack. that's not weak in my book.

the fact that you can dictate the shape of the frontline because they have so much pushing capability gives you the advantage to pound with cavalry. I've never lost a field battle as long as I'm not outrageously outnumbered (like 3-4 units vs like 10 phalanx and 5 makedonian cavalry) If you close the distance between pike and man you can destroy a phalanx, just make sure your men get to their shields. You need to flank them though. You must always flank! Kill squads are a favourite tactic of mine. Small experienced bands of mercs you bought ages ago make the best killsquads.

[Phalanx300]

2) Hoplitai are way more flexible than phalangites

I'm personally not so sure of that, when looking at how both Phalanxes work, 8 men applying pushing power against 5 holding them off by just holding onto their spears. It would just be a matter of time before pushing power prevails.

And it always took some special tactic or help to defeat Hoplites, alone I'm not sure they would be able to manage. And the Hoplites fighting under Persia managed to seriously treaten the Phalangites forcing Alexander to charge in.

In short, pushing power vs wooden shafts? I'd give it to the pushing power in the long run.








And I think that Hoplites are indeed to weak as well, not in defensive power but in offensive power, they weren't a static block, they were an offensive block. The Hoplite Phalanx just can't be good enough represented to show its offensive abilities, luckilly in EB2 we will have the Shield Wall automaticly for Hoplites.(Or so a team member once said)

[option]

Yeah, I don't know why you think hoplites should be able to beat phalangites. If that was possible, the Macedonians never would've won Charonea, let alone defeat the Persians.

[antisocialmunky]

Hoplites did stop the phalanx that Issus due to bad terrain.

The main issue in EB is that the hoplite phalanx has no ability to attack in formation, only defend(where its awesome unless AP shows up).

[Xurr]

I'm personally not so sure of that, when looking at how both Phalanxes work, 8 men applying pushing power against 5 holding them off by just holding onto their spears. It would just be a matter of time before pushing power prevails.

And it always took some special tactic or help to defeat Hoplites, alone I'm not sure they would be able to manage. And the Hoplites fighting under Persia managed to seriously treaten the Phalangites forcing Alexander to charge in.

In short, pushing power vs wooden shafts? I'd give it to the pushing power in the long run.




And I think that Hoplites are indeed to weak as well, not in defensive power but in offensive power, they weren't a static block, they were an offensive block. The Hoplite Phalanx just can't be good enough represented to show its offensive abilities, luckilly in EB2 we will have the Shield Wall automaticly for Hoplites.(Or so a team member once said)

I play using bi.exe and shield wall is the bomb for breaking up Phalangites, they'll push right through a phalanx making it easy pickings for any other infantry.

[Watchman]

The mercs fighting for the Persians got around to mauling pike phalanxes the exact same way as everyone else - they went for the flanks. It was the exact same issue of sub-units becoming "disjointed" from each other in rough terrain or simply due to different rates of advance as the Romans exploited, leaving exposed gaps into which the hoplites (or legionaries, or whoever) could readily bite into.

[Maion Maroneios]

People who say Spartans were lame are plain dumb. Unless it was meant as a joke, of course.

And I meant more flexible as mobile units. In reality, the typical formation for a hoplite-based army would be a single row of 8 men deep pushing the enemy back.

Maion

[Knight of Heaven]

1) Phalangites are supposed to beat Hoplitai
2) Hoplitai are way more flexible than phalangites
3) Hoplitai in guard mode are tanks and can withstand a pike phalanx forever
4) Hoplitai are very cost effective
5) Hoplitai have excellent defense and morale
6) They are not made to withstand heavy/elite/AP infantry
7) Spartiatai and Epilektoi are expensive because they are elite hoplites
8) The phalanx formation has a very specific role: Break the enemy through attrition, not kill them fast

Maion

They are just very good for what they supose to do, in my KH campaing i beat makedonia and èpirus , parcialy only with those haploi, they are very good against any cav, even bodyguard. of course they are levies, but i got some experienced units, mainly my army was composed by generals archers and slingers and hoplitai haploi, and i beat phalanx, is easy actualy just hold the line with the generals and flank then with haploi. Offcourse when i get the chance to recruit hoplitais, i did, and indeed they are tanks if you got at least 4, 5,6 of those you got your self a line who could hold everything. i love those guys actualy, cost efective an very reliable, even against archers.

Hoplitais are in my opinion too weak. They dont have any chance to win against a phalanx, they dont have any chance to win against heavy infantery and normal hoplitais are way more expensiver. Especially the spartan and armored elite one. I know that spears should be weak against sword and shield units but i thougth that hoplitais are effectiv against such melee combat units because of their phalanx formation.

Spartans where special indeed as well their society, very simillar and very diferent in manny ways,compared to other greek societies. And at this time(eb time frame) they were in decline, their empire and their power over the other city states was long gone, still i think Eb is very historical in that issue, spartans at that time were very kowned, and had a great reputation. And if you use spartans in EB after a while they get experience, then they will become exelent units.

If you want to have ivencible spartans then i sugest to play SPQR mod, you ill get spartans who never rout,and fight to the death they are a pain in the asse, in battle you have to kill then all to win.Offcourse the mod is made for a roman campaing not greek one.

[Apázlinemjó]

They are just very good for what they supose to do, in my KH campaing i beat makedonia and èpirus , parcialy only with those haploi, they are very good against any cav, even bodyguard. of course they are levies, but i got some experienced units, mainly my army was composed by generals archers and slingers and hoplitai haploi, and i beat phalanx, is easy actualy just hold the line with the generals and flank then with haploi. Offcourse when i get the chance to recruit hoplitais, i did, and indeed they are tanks if you got at least 4, 5,6 of those you got your self a line who could hold everything. i love those guys actualy, cost efective an very reliable, even against archers.

Spartans where special indeed as well their society, very simillar and very diferent in manny ways,compared to other greek societies. And at this time(eb time frame) they were in decline, their empire and their power over the other city states was long gone, still i think Eb is very historical in that issue, spartans at that time were very kowned, and had a great reputation. And if you use spartans in EB after a while they get experience, then they will become exelent units.

If you want to have ivencible spartans then i sugest to play SPQR mod, you ill get spartans who never rout,and fight to the death they are a pain in the asse, in battle you have to kill then all to win.Offcourse the mod is made for a roman campaing not greek one.

Except AP units.

[Satyros]

1) Phalangites are supposed to beat Hoplitai
2) Hoplitai are way more flexible than phalangites
3) Hoplitai in guard mode are tanks and can withstand a pike phalanx forever
4) Hoplitai are very cost effective
5) Hoplitai have excellent defense and morale
6) They are not made to withstand heavy/elite/AP infantry
7) Spartiatai and Epilektoi are expensive because they are elite hoplites
8) The phalanx formation has a very specific role: Break the enemy through attrition, not kill them fast

Maion

Friend ,

what about the "push" effect of the hoplite phalanx formation that is supposed to break enemy lines ? i beleive that this is supposed to be their main offensive capability and we don't get to see much of it in EB . (Just a statement , *not* nagging about it as I understand that the team does its best within certain engine limitations )

This can't be achieved with the guard button .

They are quite good as an anvil tactics-wise , only I believe that this should be a part of their possible tactical role in a battle , the other being the push/break formations effect . I hate seeing my hoplites being pushed around .

Otherwise all above statements are true .

Satyros

[Watchman]

what about the "push" effect of the hoplite phalanx formation that is supposed to break enemy lines ?

Hoplite-type troops have an uncommonly high soldier mass score for their weight of arms to represent their pushing tactics.

good point... so once the hoplites made contact from the flanks Phallangites where done for... which i suppose made securing the flanks with some decent hoplites/thyreoforoi/thorakitai ever the more important...

Well not really "done for", but certainly disadvantaged and in trouble. AFAIK it's been theorised Pyrrhus experimented with putting more mobile types of infantry (thureophoroi-types and assorted Italian allies such as Samnites) between the phalanx sub-units as a way of dealing with the "disjointing" issue; in effect, accepting the existence of the problem and trying to counter it from the get go.

[vartan]

Pyrrhus experimented with putting more mobile types of infantry (thureophoroi-types and assorted Italian allies such as Samnites) between the phalanx sub-units as a way of dealing with the "disjointing" issue; in effect, accepting the existence of the problem and trying to counter it from the get go.

And how did that turn out? Did Pyrrhus' idea work or fail (on average)?

[Zarax]

It worked but he epically failed to understand the caliber of his enemy...

[Maion Maroneios]

Friend ,

what about the "push" effect of the hoplite phalanx formation that is supposed to break enemy lines ? i beleive that this is supposed to be their main offensive capability and we don't get to see much of it in EB . (Just a statement , *not* nagging about it as I understand that the team does its best within certain engine limitations )

This can't be achieved with the guard button .

They are quite good as an anvil tactics-wise , only I believe that this should be a part of their possible tactical role in a battle , the other being the push/break formations effect . I hate seeing my hoplites being pushed around .

Otherwise all above statements are true .

Satyros

Indeed, the "pushing" effect cannot be achieved with EB's "pseudoshieldwall". The real shieldwall now, that gives the desired effect but comes with other disadvatages and bonuses that were not taken in mind by the EB team, thus overpowering units with the shieldwall. At least that is what many members say, I personally make use of both shieldwall and guard mode depending on the situation (I play on BI executable).

Maion

[Mediteran]

Friend ,

what about the "push" effect of the hoplite phalanx formation that is supposed to break enemy lines ? i beleive that this is supposed to be their main offensive capability and we don't get to see much of it in EB .

Satyros

i dont see how they could push a phalanx? except from the flanks or rear, but thats not the issue here

[Satyros]

No no not a phalanx .

Other formations I had in mind .

I have agreed that hoplites should lose to a phalanx .

Satyros

[Watchman]

From what I gather hoplite phalanxes didn't do all that well against the Celtic approach to offensive infantry combat, you know...
The Romans could probably tell you a bit about that.