Honduras Military Kicks Out President

[CountArach]

I don't get it. When military forces do a coup, OMGZ! TEH MILITARZ! THOSE DEMOCRACY HATERZ! while some countries do a self coup to stay undefinited time in power, aka Chavism.

I think the referendum was about if he could be reelected indefinitely. Which is a thing I heard in other country, but I do not remember. Maybe JAG knows.

What the hell are you talking about?

Obama says he is "concerned", but doesn't seem to want to actually do anything. Hillary has condemned the coup and Chavez is threatening military action.

[Reverend Joe]

Well, he shouldn't have tried to make a bid for unlimited reelections, but that's no reason for a full-blown coup. If Congress et al was that opposed to him they could have defeated him legally.

Edit: gotta love the picture in the article: one hoorah go-getter stopping the press from crossing the line, and about five other guys sticking in the background, making sure their face doesn't get photographed too... I think we know who the rookie was in this picture.

[Papewaio]

So the Judicial arm ordered the Military to uphold the constitution?

If so its not another Fiji, its an arrest.

[CountArach]

So the Judicial arm ordered the Military to uphold the constitution?

If so its not another Fiji, its an arrest.

But then the military branch announced its own President. That to me does not sound even close to an arrest - that to me sounds like a coup from within the government.

[CountArach]

You may not like the source, but you'll just have to deal with that. If these things are true then I don't see how someone could support this coup:

Months ago, Zelaya proposed that on June 28, a national referendum be held to present Hondurans with the question as to whether, during the November 29 national elections, Hondurans could vote on whether to call a constituent assembly to write a new constitution.

The current constitution was written in 1982 in the middle of the repression and state terrorism that blanketed Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala during the 1980s. Honduras was controlled by a US-backed military regime; the US had 14 military bases in Honduras.

The Honduran Armed Forces initially pledged to support Zelaya and provide logistical support for the June 28 poll, to be administered by the National Statistics Institute.

Then, on June 23, the Honduran army told the president they would not support the referendum. The president fired the head of the armed forces, General Romeo Vasquez, and the defence minister resigned.

Fearing for the president’s safety, thousands of Hondurans surrounded the presidential palace.

The National Congress is strongly opposed to the referendum, and today met to draft a letter of resignation for Zelaya. The Congress has also called on the OAS to withdraw its elections observers for the referendum, and has entertained initiatives to block their entry to the country.

[Crazed Rabbit]

You may not like the source, but you'll just have to deal with that. If these things are true then I don't see how someone could support this coup:
[indent]Months ago, Zelaya proposed that on June 28, a national referendum be held to present Hondurans with the question as to whether, during the November 29 national elections, Hondurans could vote on whether to call a constituent assembly to write a new constitution.

The current constitution was written in 1982 in the middle of the repression and state terrorism that blanketed Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala during the 1980s. Honduras was controlled by a US-backed military regime; the US had 14 military bases in Honduras.

Hmm. Not only do I not like the source, but they seem to get basic history wrong:
Honduras got rid of its military rule in 1981 (under pressure from the US, according to one article) and had free elections. So it was not under the control of a military regime in 1982, or since 1981.

Considering that, and also that the article is from a place with che guevera in the banner, and 'Venezuelan Solidarity' on the side, along with 'Socialist Alliance' and 'Socialist Youth Organization', I'm gonna call BS on it and demand a better source.

CR

[Ice]

But then the military branch announced its own President. That to me does not sound even close to an arrest - that to me sounds like a coup from within the government.

Military Branch?

Later, Honduras's Congress formally removed Mr. Zelaya from the presidency and named congressional leader Roberto Micheletti as his successor until the end of Mr. Zelaya's term in January. Mr. Micheletti and others said they were the defenders, not opponents, of democratic rule.

Sounds a bit different to me.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124619401378065339.html

[KukriKhan]

So the Judicial arm ordered the Military to uphold the constitution?

If so its not another Fiji, its an arrest.

Yeah. From some reports it sounds like the SC ordered the military to do it's constitutional duty. And now comes word that their congress has selected an interim Pres. Though ugly, it sounds legit.

The bothersome bit is Zelaya's bid to hold a national referendum/constitutional convention (that would be their 16th), which might accurately reflect the will of its citizens, vs the current set-up.

But their current constituion (Summary Here) seems to specifically prohibit moves by any official to extend their terms beyond "one" (see specifically, near the bottom of that linked page, the info on Title VII).

Meanwhile, saber-rattling by Chavez automatically makes me suspicious.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Kukri's link says the constitution was drafted while the military was still ruling (from 1980-early 1982), but was written by elected people, who represented the two major political parties. The president elected in 1981 was from one of those parties.

So I'm still not buyin' CA's link.

And Chavez makes me suspicious; this was the same fellow who congratulated Imnadinnerjacket on his 'election victory' in Iran.

CR

[Reverend Joe]

Imnadinnerjacket

Ahmadinejad.

I don't think the man should have remained in office either. Pushing for an extension of his term is suspicious. But all the Congress and Armed Forces had to do was stop the referendum and ensure that Zelaya left office at the proper time. If anything, this will allow a Zelaya protege to ride to power on the popularity of the deposed president, which is only going to increase because of his arrest/coup.

[HoreTore]

Ahmadinejad.

I've never understood why that name should be hard to write, after all it's written exactly like we pronounce it...

[Devastatin Dave]

Obama says he is "concerned", but doesn't seem to want to actually do anything.

That's what he does about EVERYTHING; licks finger, sticks it in the air, and waits to see which way the wind blows. Empty suit.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

This looks legitimate. The Congress and judicial system apparently support it, the Acting President appears to be from the same party as the former President and will apparently remain so until elections are held. Right now it looks like an arrest with a bit of extra muscle.

[rory_20_uk]

Can I ask an admittedly unlikely hypothetical?

The America President after doing something massively popular just after winning a landslide re-election tables legislation for the 2 terms in office to be relaxed. His minions in the houses are so elated they pass the motion.

What would then happen?

Does the Supreme Court step in and if required ask the military to step in, or does the Commander In Chief of the military command them as it was democratically decided? Could the Prez then remove the Supreme Court for acting against the democratic process?

[FactionHeir]

Obama:

"I call on all political and social actors in Honduras to respect democratic norms, the rule of law and the tenets of the Inter-American Democratic Charter. Any existing tensions and disputes must be resolved peacefully through dialogue free from any outside interference."

So essentially he is concerned but doesn't want anyone from outside of Honduras to interfere. As we already know that the gvt is against the president, Obama basically means to say that he supports the coup and change in president.

[Devastatin Dave]

Obama basically means to say that he supports the coup and change in president.

Not so much. Obama wouldn't go against a fellow leftist and Obama is looking into his future as our own dictator for life here in the United Socialists States of America.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/06/2...al-says-obama/

[KukriKhan]

Not so much. Obama wouldn't go against a fellow leftist and Obama is looking into his future as our own dictator for life here in the United Socialists States of America.

http://hotair.com/archives/2009/06/2...al-says-obama/

Won't work here in the time he has left, old buddy.

BUT (to indulge my own pet conspiracy theory) he has time in the next 7 years to arrange a US legal military commitment to the UN, whereupon he can get his dream-job of Secretary-General of the UN...

with (finally) a reliable on-call blue-helmet military force to back him up, apart from the US chain-of-command, answerable only to him; he appointed for 5-year terms indefinitely.

So by 2018 or so, after the US has crumbled economically, socially, and culturally of it's own weight and debt and corruption, and the unholy trioka of China, India and Venezuala emerges as the new people's coalition to replace the old superpower(s)...

you get the idea. :)

Honduras? Been there. Guarded airfields. Sat in foxholes. I sympathize with their 80's (current) Constitution, but point out (what I think of as) the error of trying to encode into law in the original document, term-limits or other concepts that don't allow enough flexibility for future generations to change their minds. Term limits are good. Make those provisions amendments (that can be modified later, the nation willing) and set out strict procedures for the amendment process, so that the elected guys, AND THE PEOPLE are heard, but the mob doesn't over-rule common sense.

[KukriKhan]

Can I ask an admittedly unlikely hypothetical?

The America President after doing something massively popular just after winning a landslide re-election tables legislation for the 2 terms in office to be relaxed. His minions in the houses are so elated they pass the motion.

What would then happen?

Does the Supreme Court step in and if required ask the military to step in, or does the Commander In Chief of the military command them as it was democratically decided? Could the Prez then remove the Supreme Court for acting against the democratic process?

Different Constitutions. If both the US House and Senate passed such a "no Prez term limits" bill by a 2-thirds vote of both bodies, it then goes to the 50 States for them to 3-fourths ratify. As soon as the 38th State voted "Yea", it would become the 28th Amendment, overturning the 22nd.

It's not easy to amend the US constitution, but it can be done.

For comparison, the California Constitution can be and is amended by a simple majority citizen initiative - 50% +1 of however many State-wide voters show up can turn an initiative into the latest amendment. Hence why their constitution is a hunk o' junk, legally speaking (IMO), virtually unenforceable.

-edit-
By contrast, Honduras' Constitution tries to hard-wire the 1-term provision, and Zelaya tries to skirt the document by appealing directly to the electorate with a referendum to disregard the current constitution while writing a new one (which would allow multi-terms, and whatever else...). Calling that referendum extra-constitutionally got him into trouble with both other branches of gov't + the military, which has a "separate-but-equal" status as a player in that country.