EB Online Tournement Battle Report Thread

[Apázlinemjó]

See, I don't think so. I think the smart ones still won't. Especially since I'm talking about the incredibly cheap ones that are easy to javelin to death (African forest) being at 5000. Others would still be as high as 10,000, or more. I'm not saying that it has to 50% of the previous cost for elephants . . . I just want to find the small overlap between expensive and affordable. Right now no one in their right mind would use elephants.

I agree with here, however if we are going to go through this, let's not alter the EDU, let's just go with the easier way, giving them 5000 mnai should do the job as you wrote. If someone cheats...well by replay we can check the mnai the cheater spent.

My idea is that we shouldn't make the rules faction based, but culture... for example:

Western Hellenic factions: AS, Ptolies, Maks, Epeiros, KH
Eastern Hellenic: Pontos, Baktria, Hayasdan (Not sure about that)
"Barbarians": Arverni, Aedui, Sweboz, Lusos, Casse
Nomads: Saka, Sauros, Pahlava (Not sure about that)
Western non-Hellen: SPQR, Karthadastim
And Saba which will get unique rules, I guess...

Also, someone in the past advised to not let the people to have more than 4 or 5 from the same units, I totally agree with this. It's boring, when you see tons of Pantodapoi Phalangitai or Cohors Reformata dancing on the battlefield. If someone plays with Romani, then has to understand, there weren't only legionaries and Hellenic factions are not just phalanxes and heavy cavalry.

[antisocialmunky]

Has it been proposed to change the multi-EDU? We need to update the EDU anyways for KH and other factions with missing units. It would be IDEAL if we scaled down the elephants to bodyguard size(40 men on huge like Casse FM chariots) so they are around ~5000-7000 mnai - about the same as a heavy cataphract.

[NeoSpartan]

...
I think it would be easier to edit the edu to suit our purposes. I guess the challenge would still be to ensure that every player implements the edited edu successfully.

This is probably the best way to go, if anyone knows how to edit the MP unit.files please let us know.

In the meantime I'll take a look at the files and see what I can find, (I've played around with the exp.desc.files and area of recruitment files before, it should not be too hard). If I cannot figure it out I'll check the EB Unofficial Modding Projects subforum, and/or post questions there.

[vartan]

1. No more chevrons (I've been convinced by NeoSpartan).

2. Elephant cost cut roughly in half to allow elephants to be actually used while keeping with historical armies.

@1: I guess that's not a bad idea.

@2: If you have 100 elephants that cost 10.000 mnai, cutting down the cost of those elephants to 5.000 and changing the unit size to 50 is a far better idea IMHO than having a so-called 'elephant fund'. Why? Because this way, you don't need budget imbalances (where one player has greater fund than another).

I agree with here, however if we are going to go through this, let's not alter the EDU, let's just go with the easier way, giving them 5000 mnai should do the job as you wrote. If someone cheats...well by replay we can check the mnai the cheater spent.

My idea is that we shouldn't make the rules faction based, but culture... for example:

Western Hellenic factions: AS, Ptolies, Maks, Epeiros, KH
Eastern Hellenic: Pontos, Baktria, Hayasdan (Not sure about that)
"Barbarians": Arverni, Aedui, Sweboz, Lusos, Casse
Nomads: Saka, Sauros, Pahlava (Not sure about that)
Western non-Hellen: SPQR, Karthadastim
And Saba which will get unique rules, I guess...

Also, someone in the past advised to not let the people to have more than 4 or 5 from the same units, I totally agree with this. It's boring, when you see tons of Pantodapoi Phalangitai or Cohors Reformata dancing on the battlefield. If someone plays with Romani, then has to understand, there weren't only legionaries and Hellenic factions are not just phalanxes and heavy cavalry.

Still discriminatory (see how you artificially classified the factions into specific slots?) in basis. If you are going to make ANY set of rules that is in essence two ore more SETS of rules, then you might as well (in THIS case, for EB Online Tourney) create a set of rules for each faction. In other words, research that leads to the best possible faction-specific rules is better than a few set of rules that restricts a few factions to a certain category. Otherwise, you'd simply expect one set of rules for the whole tourney.

[JinandJuice]

won against antigonos.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ndqjzymmyjb

And i would contribute to this discussion, but i'm about to die from sleep deprivation right now.

Also, do we have the player scores yet?

[Apázlinemjó]

@1: I guess that's not a bad idea.

@2: If you have 100 elephants that cost 10.000 mnai, cutting down the cost of those elephants to 5.000 and changing the unit size to 50 is a far better idea IMHO than having a so-called 'elephant fund'. Why? Because this way, you don't need budget imbalances (where one player has greater fund than another).



Still discriminatory (see how you artificially classified the factions into specific slots?) in basis. If you are going to make ANY set of rules that is in essence two ore more SETS of rules, then you might as well (in THIS case, for EB Online Tourney) create a set of rules for each faction. In other words, research that leads to the best possible faction-specific rules is better than a few set of rules that restricts a few factions to a certain category. Otherwise, you'd simply expect one set of rules for the whole tourney.

Yeah but if we make faction based rules, there will be quite a lot argues, because the similar factions will get differet unit restrictions, imho, but we will see.

[vartan]

Yeah but if we make faction based rules, there will be quite a lot argues, because the similar factions will get differet unit restrictions, imho, but we will see.

Read the English carefully. You'll see the slightest hint that I support a single set of rules (I'm against discrimination).

[NeoSpartan]

ok fellas GREAT news

I just went into the EB MP backup folder and messed with the export_desc_unit file and THATS IT!

I changed to cost of elephants and game didn't crash.

I then took the liberty to run a few more test to see if the game did or did not crash:
(a) took spears out of Solduros--> game did not crash
(b) made Arjos 60men instead of 80--> game did not crash


What this means for the tourny:

As long as changes to units are simple, dealing only with costs, unit size, weapons, and values (for armor/attack) the game will not crash.

Now for the elephants...
...I can upload the file, and link it on my signature too, once a decition is made on the cost and # of elephants.

p.s Cata Elephants are TOUGH!!!

[darius_d]

The idea about elephants fund or sth similar is nice.

My proposal of how to proceed:

1) Establish rules for army formations for all factions, historically correct, and regardless of units stats or cost (this to be done later). First we need to know where to go to.
And I think this part need to be well done and organized to serve for any tournament in the future as a solid universal basis.

We might ask EB team historians to help.
Current rules allow fantasie armies. This is EB mod, anyway.
I don't mind if we spend also September on that, as in August most poeple go vacation and rules need to be tested.

Rules for specific units may (and shall) be necessary (ex.: only one unit of 1st cohort allowed in roman army).

2) Setting a balancing budget.
Edit: the budget could be well increased from current 36K because smart restrictions about formations should be enough to allow balanced army and prevent factions like Romans spend all the money.

In case of editing Multi-EDU (if applicable):

- edition of hiring cost rather, than any other stats - we want that whoever play MP in EB he has similar experience with units bahaviour on battlefield as in the campaign. Cost changes are enough to reach the balance IMHO.

- edition of unit descriptions (appearing in custom battle menu) so that all importnat information from EDU file is not missing:
* who is really Elite, Heavy, etc (I don't think of chaning unit names, or classification, but description only)
* what is primary and secondary weapon,
* AP yes or no, etc bonuses

[darius_d]

won against antigonos.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ndqjzymmyjb

And i would contribute to this discussion, but i'm about to die from sleep deprivation right now.

Also, do we have the player scores yet?

if I count correctly, you lost your lead and eventually finished on 2nd place, mate


this is for you - my congrats.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

joke

[antisocialmunky]

Well the July Tournement ends tonight so get those last games in:).

I'll probably announce the final stats tomorrow and if anyone wants to nominate games for funniest, craziest, or best. Go for it!

PS. No chevrons = Gallic Advantage.

-Also, if we want to wait til September for new rules, we can just reset the ladder and keep going with the current rules.

[darius_d]

@ ASM

a question about cav -

Liby-Phoenician Cav are elites, Brihentin are elites, so then why Linchophoroi Hyppeis are Heavy only?
They apparently have same stats as L-PH Cav and better than Brihentin.

[antisocialmunky]

They are elite.

So, do you guys jsut want to keep the current ruels for August or take a brak from online play to hammer out some new rules?

[spiritusdilutus]

They are elite.

So, do you guys jsut want to keep the current ruels for August or take a brak from online play to hammer out some new rules?

Yes, I vote keeping the latest rules you mentioned on page 9 for August.
That way I can finally afford me some Pedites Extraordinarii.

[m0r1d1n]

Yes, I vote keeping the latest rules you mentioned on page 9 for August.

second that...
lets try some games with that

[Gabeed]

second that...
lets try some games with that

Third . . .ed, that is the best system at the moment. I'll be putting up a thread for August later today.

I don't see a problem with us changing the rules for the better while the tournament occurs, we've already been doing it to some extent in July.

[spiritusdilutus]

Third . . .ed, that is the best system at the moment. I'll be putting up a thread for August later today.

I don't see a problem with us changing the rules for the better while the tournament occurs, we've already been doing it to some extent in July.

I concur, currently the best system with just a couple of tweaks.
Anyone up for a "freundlich" match in the meantime?

[Apázlinemjó]

Read the English carefully. You'll see the slightest hint that I support a single set of rules (I'm against discrimination).

Try to read it when it's foreign language to you and it's night there. Thaaaaaaanks.

[antisocialmunky]

JULY TOURNEMENT IS OVER

So yeah, congrats to everyone who played! Results will be posted tomorrow. I guess I'm going to manage the August tournement. If anyone wants to switch factions, tell me. Also, this round will be scheduled to start on August 5th. There will be a new ruleset and revised rules. There will also be a new thread ETC.

Once again, its been fun :).

[m0r1d1n]

JULY TOURNEMENT IS OVER

If anyone wants to switch factions, tell me. Once again, its been fun :).

i would like to switch to Koinon Hellenon.
It's been great playing with you all... looking forward to the next tourney...

[spiritusdilutus]

It's been great playing with you all... looking forward to the next tourney...

Same here!

[Paul D]

ok fellas GREAT news

I just
(a) took spears out of Solduros--> game did not crash

Leave their spears, please. The whole point of them having spears is so they can take out cavalry. I don't care if you think they look ugly while charging, it's still useful.

I agree with darius here. if we are going to edit the EDU, edit prices, not stats.

[Paul D]

Darius D: 1) Establish rules for army formations for all factions, historically correct, and regardless of units stats or cost (this to be done later).

Current rules allow fantasie armies. This is EB mod, anyway.

This seems silly though.

If you went up against a steppe faction as the romans or greeks, there wouldn't be a magical force stopping you from getting those extra archers to counter their horse archers.

Players need to have room to adapt to their enemy and use unexpected tactics to catch the enemy by surprise, and overly restrictive army choices just make the game just plain dull.

I agree with Gabeed about elephants. They need lowered price so they can be a wild-card unit, not the odd-man-out

Right now it would be pointless to get elephants, but even if it becomes worth it, they really aren't that powerful. Just get a 800 dollar unit of skirmishers and kill all the elephants in 2 volleys. Or use flaming arrows and make them run through their own men.

[darius_d]

This seems silly though.

If you went up against a steppe faction as the romans or greeks, there wouldn't be a magical force stopping you from getting those extra archers to counter their horse archers.

Players need to have room to adapt to their enemy and use unexpected tactics to catch the enemy by surprise, and overly restrictive army choices just make the game just plain dull.

That would be historical because Romans used archer auxilia, I wouldn't complain. But they never used 5 first cohorts or principes without hastati for example. Or is it historical that the only 2 cavalry unit in hellen army are hetairoi? We can avoid it.

[Jebivjetar]

@ASM: My score is 1-1, not 2-1; one battle fought between spiritus and me was just a friendly match, so i'm stuck at zero

[Apázlinemjó]

That would be historical because Romans used archer auxilia, I wouldn't complain. But they never used 5 first cohorts or principes without hastati for example. Or is it historical that the only 2 cavalry unit in hellen army are hetairoi? We can avoid it.

I agree, however I think, new hyper restrict rules wouldn't solve the problem in a good way. Let's trust the common sense and not forget to speak with our opponent before the battle.

[Paul D]

That would be historical because Romans used archer auxilia, I wouldn't complain. But they never used 5 first cohorts or principes without hastati for example. Or is it historical that the only 2 cavalry unit in hellen army are hetairoi? We can avoid it.

then make princepes and first cohorts more expensive in the EDU

and People don't get light cavalry because most of the time it is impractical.

[NeoSpartan]

This seems silly though.

If you went up against a steppe faction as the romans or greeks, there wouldn't be a magical force stopping you from getting those extra archers to counter their horse archers.

Players need to have room to adapt to their enemy and use unexpected tactics to catch the enemy by surprise, and overly restrictive army choices just make the game just plain dull.

I agree with Gabeed about elephants. They need lowered price so they can be a wild-card unit, not the odd-man-out

Right now it would be pointless to get elephants, but even if it becomes worth it, they really aren't that powerful. Just get a 800 dollar unit of skirmishers and kill all the elephants in 2 volleys. Or use flaming arrows and make them run through their own men.

x2

You can't limit armies and have "historical formations only"... a smart general varies and uses his forces in deferent ways depending on the enemy he is facing.

[antisocialmunky]

The rules I've been cooking up allow you maximum flexibility against all threats but jsut because you're allowed to do it doesn't mean it'll work. Also, I'll try to have final scores out tonight. I'm going ot add them up from scratch.

[NeoSpartan]

Leave their spears, please. The whole point of them having spears is so they can take out cavalry. I don't care if you think they look ugly while charging, it's still useful.

I agree with darius here. if we are going to edit the EDU, edit prices, not stats.

this isn't a change of stats,

IF the bug causing the unit to switch to spears without me hitting alt+click were not present THEN we would not be having this conversation. (btw... this is the same problem Hoplites had when EB .8 1st came out, they switched to swords, so the EB team took out their swords)

But since the soldiers keep switching to spears, their effectiveness is compromised. The 13 attack + .225 lethality of the sword, makes Solduros (and similar units for Casse/AS/Pontus/Dacia/Ptolemoi) able to defeat Gaesate and stant toe-to-toe with other top-notch-infantry elites. The spear 18 attack + .13 lethality gets the Solduros (and the like) killed.

When it comes to effectiveness VS cavalry both weapons dish out a can-'o-woopass. I have not seen a decrease in combat effectiveness.