My Steam Community Profile - Currently looking for .Org members I know with NTW for MP stuff (as I'm new to that...lol)
I'm buried right now, haven't even caught up on all my reading. Dragon Con was this weekend and I live in Atlanta, so...
It'll come when it comes.
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How do I get the Order's Coat of arms to the left of my signature, like econ and Ituralde?
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"Oh, how I wish we could have just one Diet session where the Austrians didn't spend the entire time complaining about something." Fredericus von Hamburg
I think the poor Counseil bureaucrat is overworked. I'm sure he means the 10th of September not August!
You get the signature with those handy little commands:
["FLEFT"] ... ["/FLEFT"] for things that go left
["FRIGHT"] ... ["/FRIGHT"] for things that go left
And if you want to put something in between just use ["CENTER"]...["CENTER"]
All without the encompassing "..." of course.
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule.
—chant from a children's game heard in Great Aravalon, the Fourth Age
One question for our GM : What do we do of some of our avatars whose players are AWOL ? AFK for good ?
I was thinking about Pierre de St Germain (everyone : never voted and his last post in forum was tochoose his avatar, never posted once since anywhere on the forum) and Loup de Gisors (Beskar : never voted, posts regularly everywhere on the forums but almost never in here) ?
It is just that with the power of our BGs and the benefits on public order they can give, I think we should avoid having too much of them unused at one time.
And what of Prince Henri ? Do we seek to replace mini with a new player, provided we can find one ?
Thoughts ?
Last edited by _Tristan_; 09-08-2009 at 08:19.
Philippe 1er de Francein King of the Franks
We always had the rule that you lose your position after not voting in two consecutive Council Sessions. So that should take care of the first two. Whether this means just parking the avatars somewhere or getting rid of them entirely is up to the GM, I think.
Prince Henri of course is another matter. It would take a long time for those two Councils to pass. Has anyone PMed mini yet? Also, are there any players willing to take Henri? It would be a shame if a member of the Imperial family was left playerless.
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule.
—chant from a children's game heard in Great Aravalon, the Fourth Age
The rule Ituralde speaks of is in this current set. So they should be out.
There certainly needs to be a culling as the RBG's are scattered throughout the Kingdom at 1 florin upkeep. They are certainly worth more than that in the game.
As for Henri...we need someone to play him, he's too important not to.
I feel bored to tears right now
I think it will pick up in this Seneschal's term. First terms are typically quiet, without too much intrigue, mainly because not many people have land or power and rivalries have not yet developed.
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***
"Oh, how I wish we could have just one Diet session where the Austrians didn't spend the entire time complaining about something." Fredericus von Hamburg
On a side note, a technicality : Antwerp has not yet been ratified by an Edict as it was German-held at the time of conquest, so technically, the Order has only been promised it... So does it enable the Captain of the Order to run for Senechal under the condition that Antwerp be ratified in this session of the Conseil ? Or does it disqualify him ?
I have no preference whatsoever.
Philippe 1er de Francein King of the Franks
Bit of a clincher there.
Just had a look at the rules.
Hm, the way I read it, all provinces that weren't ratified through Edict 1.2 currently belong to no one. At least it isn't clearly specified in the rules itself. The fact that they only pass into the King's Demesne after they are ratified by an Edict means they are owned by someone else. If you read on the conqueror can refuse to give a ratified to the King. Which can mean that the province belongs to the conqueror until ratified. I believe King Phillip conquered Antwerp, so it would be his. The only question would be whether you can give away unratified provinces? The rules aren't too clear on the whole issue.
I think the spirit of the rule was that you can't do anything with the province until ratified. This would also put a questionmark on all the other unratified provinces Phillip has already given away. I think the best option would be to just let it stand and have it dealt with IC. The King decides on rule disputes, let him make a decision:
A: provinces can only be given away if ratified
B: provinces can be given away, even if that can lead to an unlanded Seneshal, who has to give up the unratified province he just got the position of Seneshal with.
or C. Whatever the King wants!![]()
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule.
—chant from a children's game heard in Great Aravalon, the Fourth Age
Um, I missed this subtlety.
I am little hazy on the game rules, but from what you had said earlier, I think Zim intended that the conqueror of the province owns it until it is ratified - at which point, it passes into the King's holdings and can be allocated. Applying that to Antwerp, I would say that Antwerp belonged to the King from the moment of conquest by virtue of his having personally conquered it. So he could allocate it prior to ratification. But I agree with the Ituralde, it's a grey area that it might be best to solve IC.
B's pretty impactful as it relates to the ability to run for Seneschal only after you get land. That is outlined in another part of the rules.
We need a ruling on that and the rest as land acquisition is pretty important and it would be good if we all understood the process clearly so we can make informed IC decisions.
Based on the past edicts, all rebel provinces taken in the last period were ratified. Therefore they are part of the King Demesne and are free to be handed out. No noble has refused to do that so the process goes forward.
All previous German holdings need to be ratified and if they have via edict in this session then they are also part of the King Demesne as soon as this session is finished and then the "dealing" of them can be made.
Again no noble has refused to prevent this from happening.
Was Antwerp rebel or german? If it was rebel then it can be handed out. It it was German it can be handed out by the King as soon as the session is finished AND there is an edict ratifiying it in the edicts.
That is how I understood the rules.
You don't buy my argument that the King owns Antwerp prior to ratification by right of conquest? I thought we agreed conqueror's hold their conquests until ratification - this was explained to me by Tristan:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=977Originally Posted by Tristan
So if we agree the King owned Antwerp by right of conquest, surely he could transfer ownership before ratification?
That argument stands or falls regardless of the edict authorising taking rebel settlements. However, if people don't buy that argument, you could make the case that the edict authorised taking Antwerp because at the time of the edict, Antwerp was - I believe - rebel. [Maybe I am wrong that Antwerp was rebel at the time of the edict (but it starts vanilla M2TW as rebel).]
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Personally, I think my "King's by right of conquest" argument is the relevant one though.
I always saw it as the person conquering holding it, whether it be the King or not, and it being personally theirs, although nothing can be done with it until it was ratified and made part of the Royaume/Kingdom.
In such a sense, yes it is the Kings to handout, but until it is ratified, it cannot be considered land for the qualification for the post of Seneschal.
But where does it say "nothing can be done with it"? It says you can't recruit nor put taxes below high. But there is nothing about transferring ownership. I think it's a grey area, but I would allow transfer.
My preference would be for us to decide this in character rather than by an OOC adjudication of what the rules mean. (By all means amend or clarify the game rules afterward to make them reflect the IC decision.) The reason is that I think this rule reflects "politics" rather than "physics". If Gaspard is denied a chance to run for the second time - this time for a "technicality" - then there are clearly political consequences and ruling him out on OOC grounds feels a little odd.
Last edited by econ21; 09-08-2009 at 11:44.
Oh no, I do mean you could transfer it - but as it was not a part of the Kingdom, it could not be used to determine who could or could not run for Seneschal.
The game rules say a Baron "Must have personal control of a province"; there's nothing about it being ratifed or it "part of the Kingdom". I think it's a grey area and the rules as written do not prevent the King giving Antwerp to Gaspard if he wants to and Gaspard running for Seneschal. If the King doesn't want to do that - for legalistic or other reasons - that's fine too.
I think we've covecer it from every OOC angle now. The only decision that remains now if we carry this over to IC and then maybe clarify the rules. Or do we do it all OOC and have an OOC vote on it.
I state again my preference for this to be settled through IC politics. Much more interesting than resolving into some lawyer feud OOC.
The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day, and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule.
—chant from a children's game heard in Great Aravalon, the Fourth Age
I agree with you Econ.
The unique situation with the King taking a province is that it is his and therefore is in the Kings Demesne straight away and ready to be handed out.
The two issues you bring up are also valid.
Caernarvon and Antwerp are certainly not exactly to the letter of the law of the edict as they were not bordering.
The interesting thing about Antwerp is that it started rebel, went to the Germans. It's a stronger case to mention because it was not bordering and it was german at the time of conquest.
All this can be done IC. But it might seem a little strange randomly bringing it up for no IC reason.
Anyway, if there is a rule dispute, then the king has the call. So if the rule is ambiguous, then it's up to Tristan to decide.
I had wondered about this, but considered it alright as no one in the Order had mentioned it while discussing whether I'd run or not.
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***
"Oh, how I wish we could have just one Diet session where the Austrians didn't spend the entire time complaining about something." Fredericus von Hamburg
Again I certainly agree Igno,
There have been many things done which if challenged would probably have held. If no one complains then that is part of the IC aspect to it.
There is a risk involved.
You don't want to annoy the King for example. Leave that to others and make sure you're working behnid the scenes.
Last edited by AussieGiant; 09-08-2009 at 13:14.
Thanks for the signature advice, Ituralde! I finally got it to work to my satisfaction.
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***
"Oh, how I wish we could have just one Diet session where the Austrians didn't spend the entire time complaining about something." Fredericus von Hamburg
"I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
"Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
"I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
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Chretien Saisset, Chevalier in the King of the Franks PBM
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