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Thread: KOTF OOC Thread

  1. #1081
    Oza the Sly: Vandal Invasion Member Braden's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AussieGiant View Post
    I've been able to push the boundries IC with some of the board rules.

    A good torture scene could be possible now.
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  2. #1082
    Prince Louis of France (KotF) Member Ramses II CP's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    I'm buried right now, haven't even caught up on all my reading. Dragon Con was this weekend and I live in Atlanta, so...

    It'll come when it comes.


  3. #1083
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramses II CP View Post
    I'm buried right now, haven't even caught up on all my reading. Dragon Con was this weekend and I live in Atlanta, so...

    It'll come when it comes.

    :sigh:

  4. #1084

    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    How do I get the Order's Coat of arms to the left of my signature, like econ and Ituralde?

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  5. #1085
    Member Member Ituralde's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    I think the poor Counseil bureaucrat is overworked. I'm sure he means the 10th of September not August!

    You get the signature with those handy little commands:
    ["FLEFT"] ... ["/FLEFT"] for things that go left
    ["FRIGHT"] ... ["/FRIGHT"] for things that go left
    And if you want to put something in between just use ["CENTER"]...["CENTER"]

    All without the encompassing "..." of course.
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  6. #1086
    King Philippe of France Senior Member _Tristan_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    One question for our GM : What do we do of some of our avatars whose players are AWOL ? AFK for good ?

    I was thinking about Pierre de St Germain (everyone : never voted and his last post in forum was tochoose his avatar, never posted once since anywhere on the forum) and Loup de Gisors (Beskar : never voted, posts regularly everywhere on the forums but almost never in here) ?

    It is just that with the power of our BGs and the benefits on public order they can give, I think we should avoid having too much of them unused at one time.

    And what of Prince Henri ? Do we seek to replace mini with a new player, provided we can find one ?

    Thoughts ?
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  7. #1087
    Member Member Ituralde's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    We always had the rule that you lose your position after not voting in two consecutive Council Sessions. So that should take care of the first two. Whether this means just parking the avatars somewhere or getting rid of them entirely is up to the GM, I think.

    Prince Henri of course is another matter. It would take a long time for those two Councils to pass. Has anyone PMed mini yet? Also, are there any players willing to take Henri? It would be a shame if a member of the Imperial family was left playerless.
    The lions sing and the hills take flight.
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  8. #1088
    Loitering Senior Member AussieGiant's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    The rule Ituralde speaks of is in this current set. So they should be out.

    There certainly needs to be a culling as the RBG's are scattered throughout the Kingdom at 1 florin upkeep. They are certainly worth more than that in the game.

    As for Henri...we need someone to play him, he's too important not to.

  9. #1089
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread



    I feel bored to tears right now

  10. #1090
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YLC View Post
    I feel bored to tears right now
    These games are long hauls - typically lasting a year - so hang in there.

    However, I will be glad to see Gaetan resurface - although I am not sure Hermant will be accepting any drinks from him.



  11. #1091
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by econ21 View Post
    These games are long hauls - typically lasting a year - so hang in there.

    However, I will be glad to see Gaetan resurface - although I am not sure Hermant will be accepting any drinks from him.


    Coward - shows how much you know Gaetan.

  12. #1092
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YLC View Post
    Coward - shows how much you know Gaetan.
    I was trying to be humourous (a reference to the spiked ale). Hermant would be delighted to hear from Gaetan whenever he resurfaces.

  13. #1093
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by econ21 View Post
    I was trying to be humourous (a reference to the spiked ale). Hermant would be delighted to hear from Gaetan whenever he resurfaces.
    I have a story that should be up soon, give you an idea of his current state of mind.

  14. #1094

    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    I think it will pick up in this Seneschal's term. First terms are typically quiet, without too much intrigue, mainly because not many people have land or power and rivalries have not yet developed.

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  15. #1095
    King Philippe of France Senior Member _Tristan_'s Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    On a side note, a technicality : Antwerp has not yet been ratified by an Edict as it was German-held at the time of conquest, so technically, the Order has only been promised it... So does it enable the Captain of the Order to run for Senechal under the condition that Antwerp be ratified in this session of the Conseil ? Or does it disqualify him ?

    I have no preference whatsoever.
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  16. #1096
    Member Member Ituralde's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    Bit of a clincher there.

    Just had a look at the rules.
    Hm, the way I read it, all provinces that weren't ratified through Edict 1.2 currently belong to no one. At least it isn't clearly specified in the rules itself. The fact that they only pass into the King's Demesne after they are ratified by an Edict means they are owned by someone else. If you read on the conqueror can refuse to give a ratified to the King. Which can mean that the province belongs to the conqueror until ratified. I believe King Phillip conquered Antwerp, so it would be his. The only question would be whether you can give away unratified provinces? The rules aren't too clear on the whole issue.

    I think the spirit of the rule was that you can't do anything with the province until ratified. This would also put a questionmark on all the other unratified provinces Phillip has already given away. I think the best option would be to just let it stand and have it dealt with IC. The King decides on rule disputes, let him make a decision:

    A: provinces can only be given away if ratified
    B: provinces can be given away, even if that can lead to an unlanded Seneshal, who has to give up the unratified province he just got the position of Seneshal with.

    or C. Whatever the King wants!
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  17. #1097
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristan de Castelreng View Post
    On a side note, a technicality : Antwerp has not yet been ratified by an Edict as it was German-held at the time of conquest, so technically, the Order has only been promised it... So does it enable the Captain of the Order to run for Senechal under the condition that Antwerp be ratified in this session of the Conseil ? Or does it disqualify him ?
    Um, I missed this subtlety.

    I am little hazy on the game rules, but from what you had said earlier, I think Zim intended that the conqueror of the province owns it until it is ratified - at which point, it passes into the King's holdings and can be allocated. Applying that to Antwerp, I would say that Antwerp belonged to the King from the moment of conquest by virtue of his having personally conquered it. So he could allocate it prior to ratification. But I agree with the Ituralde, it's a grey area that it might be best to solve IC.

  18. #1098
    Loitering Senior Member AussieGiant's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    B's pretty impactful as it relates to the ability to run for Seneschal only after you get land. That is outlined in another part of the rules.

    We need a ruling on that and the rest as land acquisition is pretty important and it would be good if we all understood the process clearly so we can make informed IC decisions.

    Based on the past edicts, all rebel provinces taken in the last period were ratified. Therefore they are part of the King Demesne and are free to be handed out. No noble has refused to do that so the process goes forward.

    All previous German holdings need to be ratified and if they have via edict in this session then they are also part of the King Demesne as soon as this session is finished and then the "dealing" of them can be made.

    Again no noble has refused to prevent this from happening.

    Was Antwerp rebel or german? If it was rebel then it can be handed out. It it was German it can be handed out by the King as soon as the session is finished AND there is an edict ratifiying it in the edicts.

    That is how I understood the rules.

  19. #1099
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    You don't buy my argument that the King owns Antwerp prior to ratification by right of conquest? I thought we agreed conqueror's hold their conquests until ratification - this was explained to me by Tristan:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tristan
    ...Zim seemed to consider that the hand-over should be handled at the next council session and that until that time the province belonged to the conquering noble. Then it was either ratified and went to the King or became the start of a civil war, or was handed back to its rightful owner through lack of ratification.
    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...&postcount=977

    So if we agree the King owned Antwerp by right of conquest, surely he could transfer ownership before ratification?

    That argument stands or falls regardless of the edict authorising taking rebel settlements. However, if people don't buy that argument, you could make the case that the edict authorised taking Antwerp because at the time of the edict, Antwerp was - I believe - rebel. [Maybe I am wrong that Antwerp was rebel at the time of the edict (but it starts vanilla M2TW as rebel).]

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Quote Originally Posted by AussieGiant View Post
    Based on the past edicts, all rebel provinces taken in the last period were ratified.
    I think the edict covered "neighbouring" rebel provinces, so there is an issue of interpretation regarding Caernarvon and Antwerp.

    Was Antwerp rebel or german?
    Another issue of interpretation is the timing. I think Antwerp was rebel at the time of the edict (and I forgot it was German at the time of conquest, hence my jumping the gun earlier). So you could make a case that the edict covered provinces that were rebel at the time of the edict.


    Personally, I think my "King's by right of conquest" argument is the relevant one though.

  20. #1100
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    I always saw it as the person conquering holding it, whether it be the King or not, and it being personally theirs, although nothing can be done with it until it was ratified and made part of the Royaume/Kingdom.

    In such a sense, yes it is the Kings to handout, but until it is ratified, it cannot be considered land for the qualification for the post of Seneschal.

  21. #1101
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YLC View Post
    I always saw it as the person conquering holding it, whether it be the King or not, and it being personally theirs, although nothing can be done with it until it was ratified and made part of the Royaume/Kingdom.
    But where does it say "nothing can be done with it"? It says you can't recruit nor put taxes below high. But there is nothing about transferring ownership. I think it's a grey area, but I would allow transfer.

    My preference would be for us to decide this in character rather than by an OOC adjudication of what the rules mean. (By all means amend or clarify the game rules afterward to make them reflect the IC decision.) The reason is that I think this rule reflects "politics" rather than "physics". If Gaspard is denied a chance to run for the second time - this time for a "technicality" - then there are clearly political consequences and ruling him out on OOC grounds feels a little odd.
    Last edited by econ21; 09-08-2009 at 11:44.

  22. #1102
    Cthonic God of Deception Member ULC's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    Oh no, I do mean you could transfer it - but as it was not a part of the Kingdom, it could not be used to determine who could or could not run for Seneschal.

  23. #1103
    Senior Member Senior Member econ21's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YLC View Post
    Oh no, I do mean you could transfer it - but as it was not a part of the Kingdom, it could not be used to determine who could or could not run for Seneschal.
    The game rules say a Baron "Must have personal control of a province"; there's nothing about it being ratifed or it "part of the Kingdom". I think it's a grey area and the rules as written do not prevent the King giving Antwerp to Gaspard if he wants to and Gaspard running for Seneschal. If the King doesn't want to do that - for legalistic or other reasons - that's fine too.

  24. #1104
    Member Member Ituralde's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    I think we've covecer it from every OOC angle now. The only decision that remains now if we carry this over to IC and then maybe clarify the rules. Or do we do it all OOC and have an OOC vote on it.

    I state again my preference for this to be settled through IC politics. Much more interesting than resolving into some lawyer feud OOC.
    The lions sing and the hills take flight.
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  25. #1105
    Loitering Senior Member AussieGiant's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    I agree with you Econ.

    The unique situation with the King taking a province is that it is his and therefore is in the Kings Demesne straight away and ready to be handed out.

    The two issues you bring up are also valid.

    Caernarvon and Antwerp are certainly not exactly to the letter of the law of the edict as they were not bordering.

    The interesting thing about Antwerp is that it started rebel, went to the Germans. It's a stronger case to mention because it was not bordering and it was german at the time of conquest.

    All this can be done IC. But it might seem a little strange randomly bringing it up for no IC reason.

  26. #1106

    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    Anyway, if there is a rule dispute, then the king has the call. So if the rule is ambiguous, then it's up to Tristan to decide.

    I had wondered about this, but considered it alright as no one in the Order had mentioned it while discussing whether I'd run or not.

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  27. #1107
    Loitering Senior Member AussieGiant's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    Again I certainly agree Igno,

    There have been many things done which if challenged would probably have held. If no one complains then that is part of the IC aspect to it.

    There is a risk involved.

    You don't want to annoy the King for example. Leave that to others and make sure you're working behnid the scenes.
    Last edited by AussieGiant; 09-08-2009 at 13:14.

  28. #1108

    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    Thanks for the signature advice, Ituralde! I finally got it to work to my satisfaction.

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  29. #1109
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by OverKnight View Post
    The proposed amendment could be abused by an adventuresome Seneschal. For example if we somehow acquired Scotland in a trade, even if no one but the Seneschal wished to acquire it, under this proposal, the new lands would automatically be part of the Realm.

    Yes, something like this would never happen. Scotland of all places! But I use the example to show my point.
    Well done.
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  30. #1110
    Chretien Saisset Senior Member OverKnight's Avatar
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    Default Re: KOTF OOC Thread

    Being the game Historian has its advantages.
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