KOTF OOC Thread

[Cecil XIX]

Probably... until Sunday...

Thing is what lands did Thomas hold in person before his death ? Frankfurt, Staufen, Reims if I'm not mistaken...

Via the Library...



Thomas gave Reims to Andre.

[_Tristan_]

Thanks, Cecil...

Btw, I don't think the save needs to be frozen anymore... You're free to go... Just don't accept the MoH offer yet as I'm waiting word from Zim...

[Ituralde]

I'll bow to the rules then but expect some flak in the Conseil... and some repercussions as well...

That's always the best reaction! No OOC squabble but lots of IC conflict, that's how it's supposed to be!

[Cecil XIX]

That's always the best reaction! No OOC squabble but lots of IC conflict, that's how it's supposed to be!

[_Tristan_]

Yes, just wanted to make sure my position IC was sustainable OOC, ie not breaking any rules... and not going against the grain...

[Tamur]

Totally off-topic, but anyone ever been to Staufen? I had a friend who lived near there for a couple of years, and was amazed with the gorgeous landscape. Looking at pictures of it this afternoon makes me homesick for Montana.

So, whoever ends up with it is one lucky doggie. :)

[_Tristan_]

Never been that side of the Rhein but I did my army time in Alsace and I can sure vouch for the fact that the area is splendid...(though the winter's cold is biting...)

[shlin28]

That's a very good counter-proposal there, Tristan

I am struggling to think of a way to counter that...

[_Tristan_]

That's a very good counter-proposal there, Tristan

I am struggling to think of a way to counter that...

Being the King teaches to be devious

[Braden]

Thomas was Duc of Lorraine so held all of the Territories held by Lorraine, my information was that INCLUDED Frankfurt, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned on the treads.

Library might have been out of date. Frankfurt was part of german provinces captured, and as all German conquests were pre-ratified by the council and then given to the old Duc at the time.

I could have a look back on the threads but I'm pretty sure.

Oh, I know where I got the info from. OverKnight told me as I asked him directly when I became Duc..."what provinces does Lorraine have?" and his list rang true at the time.

(EDITED as I rushed it last time...daughter wanted attention)

[Cecil XIX]

I note a Spanish princess also there and Henri's hoping for a marriage offer...you never know

Or maybe she'll 'convince' him to join Spain. Lorraine just can't seem to catch a break lately, you know.

[OverKnight]

I wish the shade of Hugues could appear in the Conseil and have one last drunken rant against the people who horse traded part of his Duchy for a royal adoption. Particularly since none of the originial members of the Duchy remain and those who benefit are just a bunch of carpet-baggers.

[Braden]

Honestly not sure what's going on at the moment.

I asked and was told what provinces were in Lorraine.

As such, as far as I'm aware, Frankfurt is part of Lorraine.

The deal to adopt Villain goes ahead as agreed IC between Henri and Charles.

EDIT - I have found that posts #53 & #54 in the Lorraine thread confirm that Frankfurt was given to Lorraine as Thomas was made Baron of Frankonia.

2nd Edit - save was live, mis-read the above posts.

[Braden]

carpet-baggers.

Didn't the carpet-baggers effectively win (if my historical and contextual memory serves correctly)

[OverKnight]

Well, the Civil War, or if your south of the Mason-Dixon line, the War of Northern Aggression, was already won when the oppurtunistic office seekers, profiteers and such swept into the South.

I guess they won, though most of the more ambitious goals of Reconstruction failed.

To stretch the metaphor to the breaking point, you just sold Texas back to Mexico.

[_Tristan_]

Sorry, if the game is being hold up at the moment, but a close relative of my wife has been taken to hospital in a coma Friday evening... So the week-end has been rather tough... I'll try try to catch up the threads before tonight and will get to the save then...

[Braden]

Sorry, if the game is being hold up at the moment, but a close relative of my wife has been taken to hospital in a coma Friday evening... So the week-end has been rather tough... I'll try try to catch up the threads before tonight and will get to the save then...

Certainly no pressure with this, get personal stuff sorted. My best thoughts to you and your family.

[Ituralde]

Sorry, if the game is being hold up at the moment, but a close relative of my wife has been taken to hospital in a coma Friday evening... So the week-end has been rather tough... I'll try try to catch up the threads before tonight and will get to the save then...

My sympathies also. I hope everything goes well and take your time!

[_Tristan_]

Thanks for the kind words... She's now out of the coma but remains quite weak...

I'm truly sorry for the delay ingame but will catch up soon.

[Braden]

SO glad to hear of an improvement.

Still no pressure from me.

[econ21]

Tristan, I am sorry to hear of your family difficulties. Don't worry about the game slowing down - you were moving at a cracking pace before your troubles and real life comes first.

On the inheritance issue, I understand from Braden's IC post that we have some OOC ruling from Zim? Can that be reproduced for other players' to read? I find the King's IC interpretation of the rules very odd and contrary to how I would read the rules OOC. Ituralde's IC interpretations seemed spot on to me. To say Dukes are "independent" and therefore a Duchy's lands are lost if the Duke dies intestate seems to be going way too far.

[Braden]

I've intermated in my IC post that if the IC ruling comes via an OOC clarification from Zim I'm happy.

Mainly as I had the same understanding of the rule as econ21 and that an "independant" Duc was one without a feudal chain below him, which seems more logical to me, the King picks up the property as there is no senior Baron of that Feudal chain to pick it up and maintain it.

[Ituralde]

Yeah I'd also like to hear the reasoning. Because I remembered that passage to be in there to prevent exactly the thing that is happening now. The possibility of Duchies falling into the hand of the King.
Also it seems we do need a definition of "independent" and "feudal chain" then as I understood them differently just from reading the Rules.

Either way I'm not against following sound reasoning. The consequence of this whole thing seems to be: If you're a Duke you better have a will. If that's the only consequence I'm alright with that.

Cheers!

Ituralde

[Braden]

On this subject has anyone had contact with Zim of late?

[_Tristan_]

I've not had any contacts with Zim either on the forums or on MSN of late and as such do not have an official ruling... I'll be okay to go either way... Do not forget I'm not an born English speaker and that some nuances may get past me when trying to make sense of the rules...

I find the situation rather interesting IC but wouldn't want to break any OOC rules...

All the more reason to keep the save as it is (not that I could have it any differently...)

Once again, thanks for your support and your patience...

[Braden]

Worrying that Zim is out of contact currently. Perhaps we ought to just put this to a simple OOC vote of players for now to clarify the rules in question in the absence of our GM?

1 – Definition of “independent land owning Noble”:

a) An Avatar with ownership of one or more provinces but who is without vassals AND does not have a ratified Duchy.
b) An Avatar with ownership of one or more provinces but who is without vassals with a ratified Duchy.
c) An Avatar with ownership of one or more provinces, with vassals but does not have a ratified Duchy.
d) An Avatar with ownership of one or more provinces, with vassals AND has a ratified Duchy.

**Personally, I feel the term refers clearly to option “a” but could also include option “b”, however, these are the possible combinations of what it could entail, I’d like your opinions on them.**



2 – Proposed Amended wording to Rule 39(d):

(d) - Wills & Inheritance: Upon the death of a noble his land and/or Duchy goes to the Avatar(s) specified in his valid Will. A will is valid only if posted on the relating Dukes SoT entry prior to his IC death. Inheritance of Land is separate from Succession of Title and each will, should contain two clauses to cover both land and title. Hence, it is possible for a Duke to specify one Avatar to inherit his land holdings but a different one to become his Successor in Title. Also note that a Duke can nominate ANY avatar and they need not be only those within their own Feudal Chain, including the King.

Land Inheritance without a valid will: Upon the death of a noble who has no valid will (either none posted on his SoT’s or one that has become invalid due to death of relating avatars), his lands pass to the highest ranked Count or Baron within his Feudal Chain.

Title Succession without a valid will: Upon the death of a noble who has no valid will (either none posted on his SoT’s or one that has become invalid due to death of relating avatars), the King picks the successor from among the Nobles in the Duchy Feudal Chain.

3 – Proposed Additional sub-clause (g):

(g) Default Inheritance Rule: Upon the death of a noble, if a Duke is independent (as decided with above addition #1) and has no valid will (either none posted on his SoT’s or one that has become invalid due to death of relating avatars), all Lands and Titles immediately go into the King.


**I have amended this to detach the Kings involvement and to make it clearer that the King is the person land goes to by DEFAULT if there isn’t a Count or Baron within the Duchy Feudal chain for it to go to. I have also specified that there is a difference between inheriting land and being the Successor of the Duchy. Land inheritance is via the Duchy Feudal Chain automatically but the Successor of the Duchy itself is still decided by the King from the Duchy Feudal Chain, hence the two could be differing Avatars though in practice this would be unlikely.**

[Tamur]

Great idea Braden, I'm all for resolving it and moving onward. The IC ramifications are splendid to play with, regardless of the choice. We just need to choose the choice to be chosen!

*wanders off to say ch- words at his co-workers... or is that cho-workers?*

[Braden]

I can put a couple of voting threads up tonight if I manage to get onto the PC. One for the vote on what “independent” means and the other for the Rule amendment.

[Ferret]

Land Inheritance without a valid will: Upon the death of a noble who has no valid will (either none posted on his SoT’s or one that has become invalid due to death of relating avatars), his lands pass to the highest ranked Count or Baron within his Feudal Chain.

I think the land should go to the duchy/duke if a noble dies. If it is the duke that dies then the land should go to his successor imo.

[Braden]

I think the land should go to the duchy/duke if a noble dies. If it is the duke that dies then the land should go to his successor imo.

Hmmm…I haven’t considered Baron’s death in this matter. I hope I don’t have to add more regarding that, do you think I do? The opposite would work of course for a Count or Baron’s death and their lands would move UP the Feudal chain automatically.

However, we’re in danger of making a complex thing even more complex as we “could” allow Counts and Barons to have wills…they could therefore specify Vassals to inherit…it could be endless but I suppose there would be no grey areas about who gets what.

Remember that the clause you highlight is only IF no will exists and therefore there is no named Successor as well.

EDIT - how does this revision sound?

Land Inheritance without a valid will: Upon the death of a noble who has no valid will (either none posted on his SoT’s or one that has become invalid due to death of relating avatars), his lands pass to the highest ranked member within his Feudal Chain.