KOTF OOC Thread

[Zim]

OOC thread for the KOTF forum

[GeneralHankerchief]

Nice, we're really chugging along here. Do we have a set start date in mind yet?

[Zim]

Some of it will depend on getting the FAQ up and any other sub-threads we need. I'll finish the rules tonight trying to work off the discussion thus far.

I'm going to set up the order avatars are chosen in tonight as well (just find some randomizing program to set up with those in the signup thread, most likely).

Then we need our minimod and we're good to go. That's the part I see taking the longest...

[Ignoramus]

Just a quick note to say that I won't be back online until Monday, as I'm going away with my family for a short holiday.

[econ21]

This may be a better place to respond to GHs query in the sign-up thread:

BTW, if you have time, I would love to hear your opinion on how the Battle of Trent, which ended KotR, went. Your opinion would mean a lot to me.

Well, as the dying Boromir said to Aragorn: "You did what I could not." That was a really well administered tabletop battle. I jumped ship because I just could not find the time to pull it off, so I understand how much went into overseeing it. I am glad you got the "tabletop" system to work as I really like the system of giving orders, allowing for breakdowns in communication and fog of war etc. I suspect it simulates the problem of command better than electronic Total War battles (MP or SP). But it is so time consuming it may be best reserved for the truly climactic engagements. Not only does the umpire have to devote a couple of weeks worth of evenings/weekends etc to it, the rest of the game has to be frozen for one battle that would be resolved in a couple of hours if it were vs the AI.

As for the battle itself, I think it was Lothar who put it best: it was an execution, not a battle. Hats off to Rameses for that shocking twist. Indeed, my general impression with the tabletop battles is that they are decided before the first shot is fired - by numbers. The method of combat resolution tends to emphasise attrition rather than tactical brilliance (with FHs turn 4 at Bern being a jaw dropping exception), so that the battle is determined by who turns up with the better army. I am not sure we came up with good, well understood mechanics for resolving that in WotS or KotR, since civil war was not part of the initial game design, but may be the successor game has cracked that. Personally, I am looking forward to getting into character (hopefully one with lots of vices n virtues) and writing some stories in this new game rather than engaging in open civil war, but then again contemplative peace-loving nobility probably did not thrive in the middle ages...

[TinCow]

Indeed, my general impression with the tabletop battles is that they are decided before the first shot is fired - by numbers. The method of combat resolution tends to emphasise attrition rather than tactical brilliance (with FHs turn 4 at Bern being a jaw dropping exception), so that the battle is determined by who turns up with the better army. I am not sure we came up with good, well understood mechanics for resolving that in WotS or KotR, since civil war was not part of the initial game design, but may be the successor game has cracked that. Personally, I am looking forward to getting into character (hopefully one with lots of vices n virtues) and writing some stories in this new game rather than engaging in open civil war, but then again contemplative peace-loving nobility probably did not thrive in the middle ages...

LotR had mixed success with PvP. The battles themselves worked pretty well, with several tabletop battles being fought without any problems as well as two multiplayer battles, which were great for spectators because the battle replays worked properly. However, the rule set for LotR made it difficult for a battle to occur in the first place and this made civil wars pretty anticlimactic for most of the game. Part of the current discussion for the next game is how to resolve this problem.

That pretty much sums up how I feel about LotR in general: many improvements that made the game better, but lots of flaws with the system that prevented it from really coming into its own. Fortunately, a lot of those problems were ironed out along the way so we don't have to deal with them anymore. The 'Royal Army' system that was pioneered in KotR has transformed into an excellent and very efficient system for private ownership of military units, as have the rules for IC legislation and OOC rule changes. The built-in ability for the GM to launch 'events' at will also helps a great deal. However, the House structure and the PvP mechanics were never properly polished up during the game and we're still trying to resolve the problems with them now.

[Rowan]

Indeed, my general impression with the tabletop battles is that they are decided before the first shot is fired - by numbers. The method of combat resolution tends to emphasise attrition rather than tactical brilliance (with FHs turn 4 at Bern being a jaw dropping exception), so that the battle is determined by who turns up with the better army.

Based on my experience fighting the Battle of Antiokheia I'd say there's also a big part of "He who makes the least mistakes, wins."
There are just too much things to remember to take everything into consideration when giving orders and trying to prepare for all eventualities. As such I think it simulates the role of army commander in medieval times quite well, you have to trust your lieutenants to take initiative and messengers for the overall picture.

For example, if woad&fangs had used his ram the western wall would have fallen and the whole battle would have been completely different, with most of the fighting mainly on the narrow streets. The whole southern sally would have been a sideshow, or it would have never happened if the southern ram had reached the gate before Bart & Tagaris. And at deployment I forgot to explicitly state that the troops should be positioned on top of the walls and not behind them and guess where GH put them Or committing my reinforcements I drew a map with a pretty arrow pointing towards the western gate, while in the actual orders only saying "gate". And guess where they went? Not west.


It would be a bigger workload for the umpires, but if there's another big (multiple generals on both sides) tabletop in KOTF I'd like us to expand on the "You only know what you can see or what your messengers tell you" -angle.
Basically all commanders receive a textual representation of the battle based on what they can see or what messengers tell them. This would require the overall commanders to stay on higher ground where they can observe the battle. Committing their reserve (which they would be commanding) would be a last ditch resort because their control of the battle would then be lost until they could extricate themselves from the battle again. Subordinate commanders wouldn't have the same overall knowledge of how the battle is going, only their immediate surroundings, even less if engaged in battle.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Okay, looking at the signup thread, we have the following people:

Zim
TheFlax
Cultured Drizzt Fan
Cecil XIX
GeneralHankerchief
TinCow
YLC
Ignoramus
everyone
mini
Rowan
Tristan de Castelreng
Dafug3
Vladimir
Ibn-Khaldun
econ21
Marcus Agrippa

Looks like a good start. I've also PM'd AG, prodding him to get him in here, so maybe that'll be one more.

Zim, are you planning on taking a character? If so, you should definitely get first pick, as is a GM's prerogative.

-edit- Many thanks.

-edit2- And I'd like to welcome our new players Vladimir, Dafug3, and Marcus Agrippa, as well as our EB RPG refugees everyone and CDF.

[Zim]

AG has plenty of time, I think it will take a couple days to get the mod together (gotta find someone who can do it, plus get that names file to Tristan). I think I'm going to enter everyone from the signin thread into a randomizer to determine who picks in what order.

I wasn't planning on having a character. It worked well in KOTR, but I can see why TinCow avoided it in LOTR. Especially with that and this game allowing me to create events...

[Cecil XIX]

Man, there was *tons* of discussion yesterday, even into the wee hours of the night! (At least for me. ) It's great to see such enthusiasm.

[TheFlax]

I was up all day refreshing the forum, waiting for replies and there was not much. Then I wake up today and find out that there's a ton of new posts! (Not complaining) I'm glad to see such enthusiasm, probably Zim will be happy too.

[AussieGiant]

It's gone a little banana's hey!!

[econ21]

Is anyone else spoilt by PBMs? I find it has made it hard to play Total War any other way.

I load up LTC as English to try out what sounds like an excellent mod but I just stare at the screen, then quit. I feel no enthusiasm to continue my Gondor Third Age game despite it being an amazing mod. I have not tried out the 1.3 Empires patch - no motivation.

Yet, I am bouncing around in my computer chair like an energiser bunny waiting for KotF to start. Heck, I have half a mind to book a couple of flights and whizz off to give TC and AG copies of Kingdoms so we can start.

Spoilt, just spoilt.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I agree with you!

I can perhaps play couple of turns M2TW but then it starts to bother me. Stainless Steel is better but after owning 10 or so provinces I loose interest. The same is with EB. Just can't get those campaigns there going!

[Vladimir]

*raps fingers on desktop*

[OverKnight]

Patience young padawan, Rome. . .or in this case Paris wasn't built in a day. Considering this game will most likely last more than a year, a few hours or days is nothing.

[AussieGiant]

I'm fine really. The stories have already kicked off so the shenanigans have already started.

Can't wait to blow the doors off this character.

-EDIT-

Apologies for my insensitivity as I do have a character. Still chatting about the type of person to play is also a fun time. GH and I have had a pretty amusing time already.

[OverKnight]

If there's another secret society forming I want to be part of it.

This time we could be Free Masons!

Edit: AG, your title above senior member says you're a KotR addict. Is that supposed to be an F? I think some of us will be making that mistake a lot.

[AussieGiant]

If there's another secret society forming I want to be part of it.

This time we could be Free Masons!

Edit: AG, your title above senior member says you're a KotR addict. Is that supposed to be an F? I think some of us will be making that mistake a lot.

And double crap!! Thanks.

-Edit-

When are the mug shots going up?

[Vladimir]

Patience young padawan, Rome. . .or in this case Paris wasn't built in a day. Considering this game will most likely last more than a year, a few hours or days is nothing.

No, I'm fine. It just got too quiet after such a high period of activity.

[TheFlax]

I haven't received any orders for Bertin de Monsault (woad&fangs), Gontran de Linars (Vladimir), Prince Louis (Ramses II CP) and Christophe de Perronne (TinCow).

I am delaying the deadline by 1 hour (21:00 EST) in the hopes everyone will be able to send their orders in time.

[woad&fangs]

I sent my orders in a few minutes ago. Did they get through?

[TheFlax]

I sent my orders in a few minutes ago. Did they get through?

Yes, I got them. Thank you.

[OverKnight]

Further to the right, Alain de Rohan, following the example of his fellow Duke, charged headlong into the red line. Unfortunately for the bold Alain, Raoul de Chatillon was instantly joined by Hugues de Champagne. The Duke of Bretagne put up a valiant struggle, but in the end both knights of the red teams managed to land a few solid blow, pushing him back. Nevertheless, both the Duke of Bretagne and the Duke of Lorraine remained locked in combat. (Both AussieGiant and OverKnight cannot move this round)

En garde, AG! Muhahahahahaha. The titanic battle of the eccentric upper class ponces has begun!

[TheFlax]

In all the hectic goings on, I forgot to add that:

ORDERS FOR ROUND 3 ARE DUE BY TUESDAY 28th OF JULY, 22:00 EST.

Apologies.

[AussieGiant]

En garde, AG! Muhahahahahaha. The titanic battle of the eccentric upper class ponces has begun!

"I fart in your general direction, you 'nglish lover!! I shall out ponce you!!"

And Ramses, how about you pull your finger out of your arse and get involved.

This is not the volley ball scene from the TOP GUN movie, you're the dreadful horrifying lord of four skulls!!

[_Tristan_]

One thing I noticed : shouldn't we have a status and orders thread (like we did in LotR) ?

[Ignoramus]

One of the main reasons I'm opposing buying Angers is that it seems rather gamey. What is 2-3,000 florins to us? Surely the diplomatic AI is too stupid to try this tactic. I remember in KotR when the Russians offered us money and threatened to attack us if we didn't accept.

[econ21]

One of the main reasons I'm opposing buying Angers is that it seems rather gamey. What is 2-3,000 florins to us?

Um, would they accept?[1] I never thought they would, but now that you put it like that I would not mind if the edict is voted down. I kind of gave up on M2TW diplomacy, as it seemed pretty unrewarding in vanilla at VH.


[1]That's a rhetorical question - I don't want people to play ahead.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I have finally purchased Kingdoms.
Now I have a lot bigger problem in my hands .. I need to find room for it in my PC