KOTF OOC Thread

[OverKnight]

I have looked at the two latest saves.

I considered two options: 1. Immediately playing on from 1096-4 save. The IC result would be that the Seneschal caught wind of a proposed alliance with England and quashed it. Following this Hugues cancelled the funds for the mercenaries that Philippe requested, leaving the King unable to move on the Kaiser.

2. Accepting the latest save. The IC result would be that Hugues would immediately cancel the new alliance with the diplomat in Paris and call for an Emergency Session.

Option number two is tempting. However, there are ways within the current rules for Philippe to get what he wants that would be just as dramatic. Perhaps it would be riskier and take longer to implement, but I haven't even completed one turn as Seneschal in almost four days.

Allowing this violation of the rules would, I believe, set a dangerous precedent. Others might try "dramatic" actions with a save, hoping that they would receive retroactive permission to do so if what they did created IC conflict. Such fishing expeditions would, I believe, cause further delays in game play and prolonged rules discussions.

The next turn should begin in a few hours.

[econ21]

My question is, can we refer to the OOC rules as our IC "charter" as part of the deliberations?

This question has been nagging away at me right from when I entered the discussion when the group was finalising the rules. I know TC separated the OOC rules from the IC amendments in LotR, but I just can't get my head around that separation.

Some of the OOC rules represent "physics" - what is physically possible. How many troops can fit on a ship is one example. With such rules, it is right that they be set OOC and not subject to IC manipulation. With the KotR rules, they were the "starred" rules that could not be changed.

The problem is that almost every other OOC rule (apart from the ships) make mores sense as representing the constraints of "politics" - what is politically possible. As such, it seems valid to refer to them as our IC "Charter", although somewhat odd that they are changed OOC rather than IC. I think the way TC reconciled this to me was by saying we might debate things IC and then if we reach a decision IC, we vote OOC to bring the rules into line with that decision. That seems to be the best way to live with the system we have now.

So taking the current case, the way to think about it seems to be as OK intimated - we are not role-playing an absolute monarchy. Convention has dictated that only the Seneschal may direct agents and conduct diplomacy (and spend money etc.). The agents simply won't obey the King or anyone else unless he comes with the Seneschal's seal of authorisation[1].

Now we could have an IC dispute about this and if the King won an amendment with a 2/3 Conseil vote IC that he could conduct diplomacy, there would be a strong case for changing the OOC rules through an OOC vote to allow him to do so.

So I guess the short answer is that I think it would be appropriate to refer to (almost all of) the OOC rules as our IC Charter and the unwritten rules as a kind of "common law", binding conventions.



[1]We could relax this in a GM event or if the Seneschal OOC agreed to go along with some wheeze like Tristan tried for story reasons, but neither case applies here.

[Cecil XIX]

Looks like I missed the window between the beginning and end of a fairly big problem. Would've posted earlier today otherwise.

For the record I agree with OK. flyd's history lesson was also instructive, and supports my instinct on the matter: If the rules don't say you can do something, than you can't. For the sake of our sanity, and to keep AG's head from exploding (), I believe this is the best policy.

Regarding the distinction between OOC and IC rules, I think it's necessary for one simple reason: We players may want different things than our avatars.

The players want drama and excitement, generally speaking, and that requires difficulty and challenge. Our avatars, like most sane people, don't want to make things any more difficult for themselves than they have to be.

Thus, OOC rules changes are necessary because there are some things which are could for the game because they make things harder for our avatars. The boat rule econ mentioned is a good example. Wouldn't all of our avatars want to be able to transport a full stack on only one boat? Yet we agreed to it OOC because what was inconvienent for the avatar was better for the game and the players.

Simply put, I think OOC rule changes are necessary so we can make life harder for our avatars for the sake of our own amusement.

...Rereading AG's question and econ's answer, I'm suddenly wondering if I just answered a question no one asked.

[AussieGiant]

So lets carry on.

Otherwise my head may indeed explode and that's just going to be quite a mess all round.

[_Tristan_]

I'm not sure like how things are developing here...

I understand how pissed OK may be over the move (which has been negated btw) but is that reason enough to negate any valid moves I've made prior to the unvalid diplomacy...

[Braden]

I have looked at the two latest saves.

I considered two options: 1. Immediately playing on from 1096-4 save. The IC result would be that the Seneschal caught wind of a proposed alliance with England and quashed it. Following this Hugues cancelled the funds for the mercenaries that Philippe requested, leaving the King unable to move on the Kaiser.

Hoping we’ve gone for option 1 here! IC it pits the Royal family more directly against the Council, sides will be draw up that won’t have an impact for a good few turns and I’d love to read the IC story around this from both sides.

[Braden]

OK I’m a little concerned with the oddities being displayed by the game currently, the last two battles have had what can only be described as “Bugs” in them mainly revolving around them being classed for some reason as Night-Fights.

Must admit that my archers have ALWAYS defaulted to Fire Arrows for all my test battles so far…was this the case from the onset?

Whilst getting the night-fight trait can be seen as good, are we experiencing some potential issues that will compound later?

(on a semi-related note, in one of my test games my monarch was 18 and my biological son was “born” at age 29!! Seen this sort of thing many years back in Rome, which was fixed, same bug perhaps?)

[econ21]

I understand how pissed OK may be over the move (which has been negated btw) but is that reason enough to negate any valid moves I've made prior to the unvalid diplomacy...

I think that OK was worried about the passage of time. We have a 24 window to act and this was dragging on too long. If you had a provided a save with the valid moves prior to the diplomacy, I am assuming OK would have used it. (That's what I have done when making legally questionable moves in past games - upload a dodgy save A and a safe save B for the Chancellor to pick from.) As it was, he was in a hurry to make some progress. Hopefully not too much damage has been done to the defence of Frankfurt - to quote Grant at Shiloh, you'll just have to "Lick 'em tomorrow".

I'm not sure like how things are developing here...

This is like a friendly sports game after a bruising tackle - feathers have been ruffled, but let's pick ourselves up and play on; ideally transferring some of the debate to IC.

[TinCow]

Why aren't we keeping the current save, but just canceling the alliance with diplomacy? Zim can authorize a movement reset or a temporary diplomat teleportation to get this done.

[_Tristan_]

. If you had a provided a save with the valid moves prior to the diplomacy, I am assuming OK would have used it.

If only I had been asked for it...

I have a save available from after the Battle of Franconia and before any negociations...BUt it seems it is no longer necessary... or rather no longer wanted...

[Braden]

Best, IMO, to just continue on now with the save as used by OK. There’s been some IC stories and battle reports posted now and its moved on to a stage we can’t roll back again with another option.

On the plus side there has been some referral to the Kings attempted actions so we can work that angle some more now.

..sorry, itching to get to the frontline now! lol

[Ituralde]

It's sometimes hard to know and not know at the same time isn't it...

[Ignoramus]

Sorry for my recent inactivity. I've got things I have to finish for school, but I should have a lot more time after Wednesday.

Could you please move Gaspard to Antwerp, Ituralde?

[econ21]

Why aren't we keeping the current save, but just canceling the alliance with diplomacy?

I assume the issue is with the 2 for 2 province swap. As I understand it, that deal could only be struck if coupled with an alliance. If an alliance was never actually obtained in character, then the Normans would not have vacated their French territories and it would be kind of cheap to keep their territories while saying the alliance never happened.

IC, Hermant is a staunch supporter of the King but OOC I like it that we are compromised by the English holdings in France. Getting rid of them by diplomacy would be a little easy (and maybe an OOC reason why the alliance with England was voted down in the last Conseil).

[AussieGiant]

I can confirm that was the situation at the end of my term as Seneschal.

The English refused a bunch of options unless an Alliance was included in the deal.

Hence the friction IC between the King and Alain.

[TinCow]

I assume the issue is with the 2 for 2 province swap. As I understand it, that deal could only be struck if coupled with an alliance. If an alliance was never actually obtained in character, then the Normans would not have vacated their French territories and it would be kind of cheap to keep their territories while saying the alliance never happened.

Oh, I never saw that territory had been exchanged along with the alliance. The save I looked at this morning still had the English all over the place. I guess that wasn't the right save.

[Ramses II CP]

FYI I updated my SoT and gave out Zaragosa and Marseille.

I also had the issue where I didn't get to decide what to do with prisoners, and it really irritated me, but since it benefitted the AI I suppose I won't complain too much. They need all the help they can get.

In a good mood today. Going to try to do a battle report for the Bern defense soon, and I'll work in something to explain the prisoners being released when Louis meant to execute them.

[AussieGiant]

Have we removed all the avatars that were mentioned?

Rennes is full of two dudes that have done nothing IC or OOC.

[OverKnight]

I have not touched any avatars, deadwood or no. I'd be happy to do so, I'd just need a list of those who should join Davy Jones, preferably an official one from Zim or someone who's been tracking participation. I don't want to drown anyone who's here but lurking.

Also I don't think I've done it succesfully, whenever I hit backspace they go to one side of the strait or another.

[AussieGiant]

Zim can you please remove everyone and beskar in Rennes?

[OverKnight]

Philippe is now tied with the Illuminati for number of Kaiser deaths, having pulled ahead of random Danish trebuchets.

Fingers crossed for a Kaiser Otto.

[Ignoramus]

Thanks for moving Gaspard, Tristan. I'm really frustrated at being so busy. Hopefully there's only one more day of it left. But I really glad that the activity's picked up a lot.

[Ituralde]

Philippe is now tied with the Illuminati for number of Kaiser deaths, having pulled ahead of random Danish trebuchets.

Fingers crossed for a Kaiser Otto.

random Danish trebuchets?

And I would have moved Gaspard next, probably should have said something here. I intended to send him towards Antwerp anyways.

[Ituralde]

Just took a longer look at the save and man is that Ignorance spreading! Especially towards the Order of the Fleur de Lys. Not only is our good Duke and Seneshal Hugues affected by it, but also Simon de Montpierre, Eloi de Montferrat and Gaspard de Neufville. It's amazing really!

[Braden]

Which particular Ignorance is that then? The General Ignorance of joining the Order itself? *wink*

I’m just glad that the glitch we had which was automatically releasing prisoners stopped this time round and managed to net us a tidy coin or two!

[_Tristan_]

My apologies to Braden, I only got your PM while uploading the latest save, too late to do anything about Henri's move towards the battle...

EDIT :

Philippe is now tied with the Illuminati for number of Kaiser deaths, having pulled ahead of random Danish trebuchets.

Point me the next one and i'll be sure to best that...

[Braden]

My apologies to Braden, I only got your PM while uploading the latest save, too late to do anything about Henri's move towards the battle...

EDIT :


Point me the next one and i'll be sure to best that...

Worry not, I’ll try to take the save tonight and move Henri accordingly towards your army.

[econ21]

Just took a longer look at the save and man is that Ignorance spreading!

I wonder if that's one of the bad vices you get from not having a grain exchange? It's a pain, especially from a role-playing point of view. Maybe we should follow the Roman practice of not allowing field armies in cities? At least until the cities become more than sinkholes.

[OverKnight]

Which particular Ignorance is that then? The General Ignorance of joining the Order itself? *wink*

I’m just glad that the glitch we had which was automatically releasing prisoners stopped this time round and managed to net us a tidy coin or two!

It's good to know the glitch has only occurred in defensive battles so far.

[OverKnight]

Due to my schedule, the save is going to remain open until tomorrow around 12:00pm GMT.

For the turn after that the save will be open for approximately 36 hours.