KOTF OOC Thread

[econ21]

I've mentioned an OOC issue about the crusade in the Conseil, but really we should discuss it here.

How do Tristan and Overknight feel about coordinating the crusade so that nobles wishing to join can do so? Particularly for those with avatars of a chivalric bent, the traits and retinue you can get from being part of the stack that takes a crusade target are very nice. A lot of us have been sitting around with little ability to acquire traits so far - could we be included?

[TinCow]

I've mentioned an OOC issue about the crusade in the Conseil, but really we should discuss it here.

How do Tristan and Overknight feel about coordinating the crusade so that nobles wishing to join can do so? Particularly for those with avatars of a chivalric bent, the traits and retinue you can get from being part of the stack that takes a crusade target are very nice. A lot of us have been sitting around with little ability to acquire traits so far - could we be included?

What English cities are available as targets for the Crusade? Only London?

[_Tristan_]

London, Nottingham, Bordeaux and one other I think

London makes the most sense and we wouldn't take too much advantage of the Crusade mechanic

[Braden]

I've mentioned an OOC issue about the crusade in the Conseil, but really we should discuss it here.

How do Tristan and Overknight feel about coordinating the crusade so that nobles wishing to join can do so? Particularly for those with avatars of a chivalric bent, the traits and retinue you can get from being part of the stack that takes a crusade target are very nice. A lot of us have been sitting around with little ability to acquire traits so far - could we be included?

Good plan, but I'm a little unsure about the time-span open to us before the Ex-comm is recinded by the Ai though. In my experience Ai Catholic factions don't stay Ex-comm'd for very long but I've not been playing these mods in enough detail to be certain if that stays the same for the version we're playing.

Due to this, I don't want us...as a faction...to miss out by delaying too long.

[econ21]

If the target is in the British isles, we could presumably beat other factions there. (Have to build quite a few ships though).

There's a risk of the English king dying of old age - how old is he?

[_Tristan_]

A bit older than Philippe... But the faction may remain excommed after the death of its Monarch...

I think Edinburgh and Pamplona are target cities as well (Dublin, York, Valencia and Angers are not, for sure).

[Ituralde]

Due to the Calais strait we can probably reach London in one, two turns max. So it should be feasible to make this a quick excursion. Which would also mean that we don't have to utterly crush the English before they're not excommunicated.

[Braden]

To me OOC the key is to ensure we unify France with this opportunity...a crusade is a lesser ideal for me. If we can do both that super but I'd always err on the side of reclaiming France first and then sailing on London only after that...and without overstretching us of course

I'm sure once I've had a look at the save I'll get a better idea.

[_Tristan_]

Don't worry... Knowing our player base, if we get a crusade, we may find ourselves owning almsot half of Europe by the end of it...

[Ituralde]

That's why my OOC stance is actually to grab as little land as possible. But hush, no one's supposed to know that!

[Braden]

...we appear to rule the world...

[GeneralHankerchief]

Dangit, everything always happens while I'm asleep. Not sure if I like what I'm going to see though, considering Raynaud's aims...

[OverKnight]

Don't worry... Knowing our player base, if we get a crusade, we may find ourselves owning almsot half of Europe by the end of it...

That's what I'm worried about. So I guess the whole let the English entrench thing is out the window then?

[Braden]

Well that'll be the debate I guess? A surgical strike into London nearly immediately and bringing the crusade to a happy conclusion (which'll hobble the Ai English significantly but keep them on our backs with their French holdings) or steam-roller to gather up all of France, finishing up in London (only potentially...with the chance of a failed crusade even!).

[_Tristan_]

My own OOC stance is that we use the Crusade to roll up our two English owned continental settlements and choose London as the crusade target (and not Edinburgh !!) as it is the southernmost English city and we may hope to find William herein.

[OverKnight]

This turn is going to take a while I assume?

The save will be open until all the cats figure out what they want to do.

The Crusade may not happen this turn. They're all sorts of logistics and such to figure out.

Remember how long TinCow took to assemble the First Crusade in KotR?

[_Tristan_]

Or it can be very simple : call crusade, have any noble with enough men join, take London or any other target and we're done... 1 turn, 2 at the most...

[Ramses II CP]

Just FYI Louis has technically violated the edict about not going into English territory. OOC that was a deliberate act, but IC he just didn't ever consider the possibility that war wouldn't begin immediately after he heard about the excommunication.

[econ21]

Or it can be very simple : call crusade, have any noble with enough men join, take London or any other target and we're done... 1 turn, 2 at the most...

I suspect OK was referring not so much to gametime as to real life time and effort. With the KotR example he cited, the real life time and effort was coordinating - IC and OOC - among the 20 or so players to find out who wanted to join a crusade and working out how to get them all in on the kill. One player could do alone it very simply, but that would leave potentially 19 or so others a little put out.

[_Tristan_]

The main difference I see between the two situations is that we had in LotR a GM-created event as Byzantium had no possibility otherwise to launch a crusade thus needing the creation of the mechanism for it, when we have here an ingame possibility and mechanism for it... Why don't we make use of it ? Get 8 units and join in the fun... There is certainly about 5 players who could join right from the start... And more if the Crusade lasts...



I believe the Order has even enough men to join though they are certainly too far to have an impact on the events... but who knows what might happen on the Eastern front ? Philippe left you in command of his former army so that you could start gaining your own stars...

[Ituralde]

They are referring to KotR where we also made use of the Crusade mechanic. But I agree that back then it was an effort to get everybody all the way to Jerusalem, whilc London does indeed lie much closer.

But if there's a sentiment to talk this over OOC I have no problem of hearing all the arguments.

[TinCow]

Hrmm... metagaming is interfering in my IC thinking about the Crusade target. Whatever target we pick is absolutely guaranteed to be captured. If we capture a city on the British Isles, we won't stop until England is wiped out. From a long-term game balance perspective, I'm not sure if that's a good idea. If, on the other hand, the Crusade target is one of the Continental English possessions, we could make the Crusade successful and regain all of the French provinces without totally annihilating the English.

I'm not sure how to translate this into an IC discussion though, nor am I sure whether such a line of reasoning should even be considered valid...

[AussieGiant]

What's wrong with using the IC crusade to secure our IC continetal possessions.

That seems pretty straight forward and believable.

And the land bridge between Bruges and England means we don't need ships, correct?

[TinCow]

There's a land bridge? Is that a LTC thing?

[_Tristan_]

Yep

[econ21]

I believe the Order has even enough men to join though they are certainly too far to have an impact on the events...

They are only too far if the players closer to the front won't wait up for us. I'll be very disappointed OOC if that happens. All I am asking is for some coordination so that players who want to enter the target of a crusade when it falls can do so. IIRC, we can have multiple crusading stacks converging on a target and then create a stack with all the avatars in to take the settlement. I have a vague memory OK did that in Kotr when we took Jerusalem.

Ironically, for the last two Conseils, I have been pondering an amendment to ensure that players get a chance to join crusades. But Hermant lacks the rank to propose such a thing. Here is what was in the Kotr rules, for example:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

When a crusade is called, the Chancellor must ask all generals if they wish to join. He must include at least three volunteers who reply within 48 hours. If there are more than three, he must pick the three most pious. However, he can decline a volunteer if that would usurp his pick of army commander. If the AI calls a crusade, the Chancellor can choose not to follow it, even if generals wish to join - but he must still notify them immediately of the call and get their view on whether they would like to join (were he to follow the call).

[AussieGiant]

Yeah, I think that needs to go in Econ.

[TinCow]

They are only too far if the players closer to the front won't wait up for us. I'll be very disappointed OOC if that happens. All I am asking is for some coordination so that players who want to enter the target of a crusade when it falls can do so. IIRC, we can have multiple crusading stacks converging on a target and then create a stack with all the avatars in to take the settlement. I have a vague memory OK did that in Kotr when we took Jerusalem.

Ironically, for the last two Conseils, I have been pondering an amendment to ensure that players get a chance to join crusades. But Hermant lacks the rank to propose such a thing. Here is what was in the Kotr rules, for example:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

When a crusade is called, the Chancellor must ask all generals if they wish to join. He must include at least three volunteers who reply within 48 hours. If there are more than three, he must pick the three most pious. However, he can decline a volunteer if that would usurp his pick of army commander. If the AI calls a crusade, the Chancellor can choose not to follow it, even if generals wish to join - but he must still notify them immediately of the call and get their view on whether they would like to join (were he to follow the call).

Under the circumstances, I would support an Edict, or whatever the proper legislation is, to give participants in the Crusade one of the 'Crusader' traits even if the game didn't award it to them with the normal mechanics. We're not basing influence on stats anymore, so it's mainly a roleplaying thing. It makes sense that everyone who went on Crusade would get some kind of trait like that, not just those that conquered the city. It particularly makes sense for the Order members.

[Ituralde]

Ha! I did it.

I finally managed to mold my OOC views into some form of sensible IC statement. At least I hope it's sensible...

[Braden]

Damit more than I could do