Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 31 to 59 of 59

Thread: Ah, Those Journalists

  1. #31
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    6,407

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Where the argument is: 'Dresden was a war crime!!
    That is a perfectly sensible assertion. Dresden being a war crime may be included in [bad] revisionist history (there is good revisionism as well, mind you, and I don't like it when people group the two), but it may also be included in legitimate and civil historical debate.

    The Allies are just as bad as Hitler. Dresden = Auschwitz. The suffering of the German people proves Hitler was right when he stood up for persecuted Germany'. 'Dresden' here is not a debate, but an instrument of political propaganda.
    I agree with you that these kind of assertions are laughable. That is just one reason why us normal Germans, whatever our thoughts on the subject, despise the Nazis who try to intrude on the debate.

  2. #32
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Posts
    4,315

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Hey, one post at a time!

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    I am happy that Dresden has been brought up. I wanted to use it as an example, but feared the 'Godwin' of it.

    There are two ways to discuss 'Dresden':
    - As part of an objective, at least, honest, debate about atrocities, Allied self-criticism, needless suffering, strategical value, rightful avengement. Let's call it Truth and Reconcilliation.
    - As part of a revisionist narrative. Where the argument is: 'Dresden was a war crime!! The Allies are just as bad as Hitler. Dresden = Auschwitz. The suffering of the German people proves Hitler was right when he stood up for persecuted Germany'. 'Dresden' here is not a debate, but an instrument of political propaganda.

    These two 'debates' (one is, another isn't) are unfortunately often hopelessly intertwined. Much to the delight of professional Nazi revisionists. They will argue the second, and when confronted with criticism, claim they are merely debating the first. Slippery weasels.

    I accuse the arguments of Sarmatian (and Brenus ) of belonging to a discourse belonging to debate two. Not out of any deliberate act, but unwittingly so.
    Ok. Now, let's take it easy. Are you really comparing NATO intervention in SFRY and FRY with Second World War? In WW2, allies were attacked and they responded to that attack. During the war, some information about the crimes and genocide came to be known, but most of it was discovered afterward. In case of Yugoslavia, NATO intervened because of the crimes and genocide, after which they proved either false outright in most cases or blown out of proportions after.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Louis wants truth to be known and justice to be done. So I support democracy and human rights groups in Serbia. And I have a distinct dislike of nationalist discourse.
    Completely agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    These three are pretty much the considerations behind what I write and why I write it in any 'Serbia' thread. Other than that, I have no special feeling for or against Serbia. I wish Serbians all the best.
    And to me particularly, I hope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Edit: I am sooo tempted to deconstruct your statement 'Serbia has only twelve million people, but even that is too much'. It fits in perfectly with what I've argued about Serbian national discourse.

    Serbian nationalist discourse describes the wars as a 'a foreign plot to diminish Serbia. The world fears the might of Serbia. And therefore wants to bring Serbia down'. This ethnic narcissim is combined with victimization: 'evil world, Turks, the West, NATO. All forever keeping Serbia down'
    Nah, another miss, but to be fair, you couldn't possibly know my opinion about that. In fact, you are right that many Serbs hold such views, especially about the Ottoman Empire. I hold totally different position and am of an opinion that Ottoman rule of Serbia was in many ways beneficial and that Ottomans were a great empire, organized and efficient. In fact, I believe that during 15th and 16th century, Ottomans were the most advanced state in Europe. Bad rep they have comes from the later part of their rule when the empire fell behind and corruption, waste, inefficiency, crimes and atrocities happened all over the empire, rather than just in Serbia or in the Balkans, like many Christians who were under Ottoman rule like to believe. I'm often at odds with my friends about this and many other aspects of the Serbian history. So, in short, no I don't believe that and never have. For the fact that many people who share my nationality do, well, what can I say. Some French apparently believe that there have been a thousand years of French cultural superiority

    You're arguing with me, I don't represent Serbia or Serbs and I'd appreciate if you'd stop deciding what Serbian national attributes are and assigning them to me. I may do something similar to you, decide that your mind is contaminated by the false image the western media and politicians created about Serbia. So we can either play the game called "1054" and mutually excommunicate each other or we can continue the discussion and maybe, just maybe, get somewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    In fact, I seem to remember you arguing in a previous Serbia thread that the US was behind the break-up of Yugoslavia: it feared an intact Yugoslavia as a competitor for global domination.
    (A faint echo of what Russian nationalism claims about the break-up of the Soviet Union. I am not sure whether Serbian nationalism took its cue from Russia here.)
    I'm not sure which thread are you talking about, but I'm pretty certain I didn't say US was behind the break-up of Yugoslavia. I may have said something along the lines of "Yugoslavia was already a mess, standing on the edge and US applied a gentle push at the appropriate moment". And yes, I still hold that view. If instead of the push, someone big enough tried to pull back, we might have had still functioning Yugoslavia after, albeit in a different form.

    Concerning "it feared an intact Yugoslavia as a competitor for global domination" - if you really think that my opinion is even close to that, well, I don't know what to say to that. I'll take that you really don't, since you're still arguing with me (and Brenus). I presume if you really thought that, you wouldn't even be a part of this discussion.

    Louis, great powers react, even when they are not directly threatened. In the case of Serbia, I don't think I need another example but First World War. Do you think that Austria-Hungary peed in their pants on the prospects of war with Serbia and had to call Germany in, so that together they could maybe prevail against Serbian might? No, back then, as today, it was more at stake. Small countries tend to be pawns in the game played by the big countries. Unfortunately, most times, small countries get ****** over in the end.


    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    The nature of Serbian nationalist discourse and how it permeates Sarmatian and Brenus' posts, I must leave for another post. I shall adress three issues that have come up:

    The NATO bombings.
    My opinion in brief: Certainly ill-conceived and poorly executed. But neither undeserved nor, in fact, all that ineffective. For one thing, the wars in Yugoslavia pretty much ended after the bombings.
    Can't remember the exact time and place but I remember reading about a Roman general called to end barbarian unrest and restore piece in the province. He did just that. He killed half of the population of the province and peace war restored. It prompted another important Roman to say this wasn't what general was called to do and said something along the lines of "achieving peace through desolation" (can't remember the exact phrase, either in Latin or the English translation). He calmed the population of the province down by killing them all. As I said, the exact phrase and the particular event eludes me, maybe someone here will know. Something similar has happened in Kosovo. You had Albanians and Serbs having difficulties living together. NATO solved that problem by removing Serbs from the equation. The exact same result could have been achieved by removing Albanians from Kosovo. Peace in Croatia when Serbian component was removed. So the point isn't whether the war ended, but how it ended and how it was fought.

    End of the wars is not an argument at all. You could have dropped several nukes and end all wars in the territory for centuries to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Which seems to support the case both for the bombings and for the claim Serbian agitiation was a main driving force behind the wars of the 1990's.
    It doesn't, as I believe I proved in the paragraph before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Whether an independent Kosovo is desireable, I think maybe not. However, that was not the sole reason for the war. The war was a concluding act of the decade before, not an independent event.
    Wrong, two totally separate events. It may seem to you that way since both involved Serbia, but they are separate. WW1 and WW2 are two separate event even though both include UK with Churchill holding some position in the command structure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    'Killing journalists yes or no'.
    I am tempted to be a goody two-shoes and say never. But I won't.
    There are two kinds of journalists: mere mortals, and Adrian. No wait. A more useful distinction is: journalists who report; and secondly, reporters, writers, documentary makers, filmmakers who make propaganda. Alas, the second will always pose as the first. The first are not always (postmodern: never) able to distinguish themselves from the latter.
    So I would say, never shoot the first, the second are fair game. If only the distinction could be made. And even if it could, I am not sure it isn't a pandora's box of tragedies.
    (A similar discussion could be had about medics. Medicine is not neutral, and can be an effective instrument of war. The conventional wisdom, as with journalists, to never consider them a legitimate war target, is slippery)
    (If only military targets are legitimate, then nobody fighting on a losing side will ever be a soldier distinguishable as such again. Which would make for an even bigger mess than the already blurred and uncomfortable wisdom of only targetting military targets. The wars in Yugoslavia serve as an excellent case in point.)
    Congratulations, you've just justified Srebrenica. People killed in Srebrenica were all men of military age. Many of them have been caught and released/exchanged several times before by the Serbian forces, only to have to fight them again and again. They have indeed been a very effective instrument of war. Your logic dictates that they should be shot. A reporter, even if he reports nothing but the truth, can still be a very effective instrument of war.

    There are rules, very strict rules that should be enforced harshly. A soldier without weapons, medics, journalists, civilians, prisoners of war are not legitimate targets and no amount of brainstorming can make them legitimate targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    The attack on the Serbian state television.
    Shade of grey. The wars in Yugoslavia were not one of conventional, large armies. Paramilitaries mostly. The wars had such bizarre sub-plots as Al-Qaida groups fighting against (football club) Red Star Belgrade hooligans.
    The Serbian state, however, aided and abetted paramilitiaries and etnic cleansing. So while no army could be bombed back to Serbia, the Serbian state and its organs could be the target. The state television as much as the state. For one thing, as argued in a previous post, the Serbian television was not as innocent or civilian as it might appear. It was a state-run instrument of propaganda and incitement of hatred.
    Partially true. I'll agree with you here rather the to run around in circles with this particular issue. Just explain this to me - how is blowing up a building, killing people with minor roles in that TV station and not hitting anyone from the state who uses that TV station to spread propaganda or anyone from the TV station who has a say in what will be aired gonna change that?

    Make-up artist don't decide what's the TV station gonna show.


    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Having said that, here's a short article about Serbian dealings with the wars:
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion...ica-edit_x.htm
    I'm not going to dissect that article, my post is long enough as it is. Suffice to say that take some vague issues as facts and puts them in the wrong context. Instead, I'll agree with you that Serbia still has to do some facing with the past but not in the way or in the magnitude it was implied in the article. I'll just add that double standards by the Hague, UN, NATO aren't helping either. I'm seeing much less readiness to let go now than I had seen in October 2000.
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 07-15-2009 at 22:18.

  3. #33
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Saint Antoine
    Posts
    9,935

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    . Are you really comparing NATO intervention in SFRY and FRY with Second World War?
    No. WWII was of an entirely different order of magnitude. What I compare is how a neutral description of (historical) events can be intertwined with a politically motivated one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian
    And to me particularly, I hope.
    I do take you for a moderate, a man of intelligence and an honest conscience at that, who's trying to understand the events that occured. Nor do I think most Serbians are mean spirited. More stuck in a discourse that is not conducive to objective dealing with the recent past.
    Not WWII, more North Ireland. Normal people, with academic degrees and footy on the telly at night. In a society unfortunenately poisoned by lingering sectarianism that it could well do without.

    I do expect Serbia to join NATO in the not to distant future. And the EU too. In fact, by coincidence, as of today Serbians can travel to the EU without the need of a visum.
    Kosovo will for the foreseeable future remain a mix between Afghanistan and a former Eastern Bloc mobster state. Tragic, yes. But then, the NATO bombings were not so much the result of any fuzzy feeling towards Kosovo, but to put an end to a decade of violence and etnic cleansing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian
    I'm not sure which thread are you talking about, but I'm pretty certain I didn't say US was behind the break-up of Yugoslavia.
    I have a long memory. Eight months ago you wrote:

    Sarmatian: 'I can not conclude anything else except that break up of Yugoslavia and reducing influence and power of Serbia was a goal of American foreign policy throughout those years. Instead of a single, unified state now we have 6 statelets (7 if you count Kosovo) reduced to economic dependency and Nato soldiers and bases throughout the territory of former Yugoslavia.

    Of course, this doesn't mean that various internal factors weren't involved but foreign factors were dominant. There are three major factors for the break-up of Yugoslavia:
    1) Foreign influence
    2) economic situation
    3) nationalism'

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...2&postcount=17
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  4. #34
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Posts
    4,315

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    I do take you for a moderate, a man of intelligence and an honest conscience at that, who's trying to understand the events that occured.Nor do I think most Serbians are mean spirited. More stuck in a discourse that is not conducive to objective dealing with the recent past.
    Thanks mon ami, can't think of a deserving response at the moment that won't sound too gay. Imagine I've said something similar. And I was kidding when I implied that I don't believe in French cultural superiority. I do believe in it and consider Asterix comics to be the pinnacle of that superiority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    I have a long memory. Eight months ago you wrote:

    Sarmatian: 'I can not conclude anything else except that break up of Yugoslavia and reducing influence and power of Serbia was a goal of American foreign policy throughout those years. Instead of a single, unified state now we have 6 statelets (7 if you count Kosovo) reduced to economic dependency and Nato soldiers and bases throughout the territory of former Yugoslavia.

    Of course, this doesn't mean that various internal factors weren't involved but foreign factors were dominant. There are three major factors for the break-up of Yugoslavia:
    1) Foreign influence
    2) economic situation
    3) nationalism'

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showp...2&postcount=17
    Well, that's like 10% of my post. I go to great lengths in that post to explain my position. I didn't say that someone in the CIA decided in the 70's that Yugoslavia should be broken up. I explained how American position changed to the point that they didn't consider saving Yugoslavia was a worthwhile goal and that breaking it up is a better option, since there's a possibility that the country may break-up by itself. I said the foreign factor was dominant because it was crucial to the final development. You already had rising nationalism, economic crisis and political instability, the question was only what kind of influences will come from abroad. If support came, the country could have been saved, Instead, the west supported nationalist leaders, Milosevic and Tudjman, first and foremost but Izetbegovic deserves more than an honourable mention. If the suport was given to Ante Markovic (Croat from Bosnia, federal prime minister at the time for those unfamiliar with the guy, moderate and economic expert). So, there's a bit more to it than just the part you quoted.


    What bothers me the most in the entire thing is how my feelings changed. I could have swallowed the bombing, the sanctions, the lot. In the year 2000, when it ended, I was very pro-western. Not so much pro-NATO, but definitely pro-western. The stuff that happened between 2000 and 2009 alienated me much more from the west than Milosevic did in more than a decade of his rule. It's not so much the stuff that happened in the 90's but the stuff that happened afterward. And that, more than a thousand expert opinions, proves to me that something wasn't and still isn't right. People who are ignoring their mistakes are putting pressure on you to admit yours. Britain went to war because of the Falkland Islands and then British ambassador in Belgrade explains to Serbia how territory isn't really important and that by refusing to recognize Kosovo we're just clinging to nationalism... And then you try to look at the broader picture and to discern who's crazy in all of that. Or who's sane, not really sure which is easier.

  5. #35
    Voluntary Suspension Voluntary Suspension Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Isca
    Posts
    13,477

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Point of Order:

    The Falklands are very different. They were held by one power, whose citizens happily occupied it; then it was invaded by another power illegally.

    Kosovo itself wanted to be independant.

    A better comparison would be Wales or N. Ireland in the UK.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

    [IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]

  6. #36
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wokingham
    Posts
    3,523

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    The Falklands are very different.” It is always different. That is the problem.

    The point about Yugoslavia is the Serbs were charged about crimes they didn’t commit and overcharged for the ones they did.
    The others camps didn’t commit any…

    Louis carefully avoid to answer to these questions, because he knows he had it wrong:
    The first nationalists were not the Serbs. It wasn’t the Serbs who shot down a JNA helicopter, it was not the Serbian Government that imported weapons from Hungary, it was not the Serbs who started the war of the barracks.
    The first to play nationalism were not the Serbs but the Slovene, then the Croats.

    It was not Milosevic who wrote the Islamic Declaration and who thanked God his wife was not from other ethnicity and religion.
    It was not the Serbs who paraded in uniforms from the WW2.

    It was not the Serbs who shelled villages; it was not the Serbs who demanded from their minorities a oath of loyalty…
    Serbia is still the most multicultural country of the former Yugoslavia, rights still recognised in the Serbian Constitution.
    The Serbs are the only population that expelled their authoritarian leader and not waiting him to die…
    (Do you know the Croatian joke when Tudjman died: Serbian boy: A a a , your President is dead…
    Croatian Boy: A a a , your President is still alive…)

    If Milosevic didn’t succeeded in keeping Yugoslavia under his rule it is because the vast majority of the Serbian youth refused the conscription order.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  7. #37
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Taplow, UK
    Posts
    8,690
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Post-war trials are always a way of settling scores against the loosers. Look post-WW2 where of course no allied commander did anything wrong whatsoever, and some Japanese commanders were convicted on the flimsiest evidence (if any) basically as they'd had the temerity of beating the allies.

    Post war trials are the first step in writing the post-war narrative of "what really happened"

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

  8. #38
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Posts
    10,415

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    Post-war trials are always a way of settling scores against the loosers. Look post-WW2 where of course no allied commander did anything wrong whatsoever, and some Japanese commanders were convicted on the flimsiest evidence (if any) basically as they'd had the temerity of beating the allies.

    Post war trials are the first step in writing the post-war narrative of "what really happened"

    Just to beat a dead horse, this is another reason why a formal Declaration of War is required. It lays out the reasons for the impending conflict, making the "who started it" argument moot. Then all that remains after the mindless, stupid, bloody, wasteful, barbaric, atrocity-laden event is: "who cheated?", who failed to abide by the victor's notion of fair conduct.

    And yes, I confess... I am a secret war-monger, and Geneva and Hague Conventions disregarder, and victim of Bushism, and proponent of killing children.

    There. It's out there. The last 35 years of my life have been a lie, a subterfuge, a distraction from my real purpose: world domination, and the extinction of the human race.

    For I am Jim, the Antichrist. From California. By day: a mild-mannered civil servant and poster on these boards. By night: Satan. And a part-time grocery-bagger at the Albertson's on Valley Parkway.

    You have been warned.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  9. #39
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Moral High Grounds
    Posts
    9,286

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    And yes, I confess... I am a secret war-monger, and Geneva and Hague Conventions disregarder, and victim of Bushism, and proponent of killing children.

    There. It's out there. The last 35 years of my life have been a lie, a subterfuge, a distraction from my real purpose: world domination, and the extinction of the human race.

    For I am Jim, the Antichrist. From California. By day: a mild-mannered civil servant and poster on these boards. By night: Satan. And a part-time grocery-bagger at the Albertson's on Valley Parkway.

    You have been warned.
    You are a postal worker. None of this comes as a surprise.
    The .Org's MTW Reference Guide Wiki - now taking comments, corrections, suggestions, and submissions

    If I werent playing games Id be killing small animals at a higher rate than I am now - SFTS
    Si je n'étais pas jouer à des jeux que je serais mort de petits animaux à un taux plus élevé que je suis maintenant - Louis VI The Fat

    "Why do you hate the extremely limited Spartan version of freedom?" - Lemur

  10. #40
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Saint Antoine
    Posts
    9,935

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Louis carefully avoid to answer to these questions, because he knows he had it wrong
    Actually, you are right. Now that I think about it, yes, Serbia received a larger share of the blame in the press than it was due.
    But not enormously so.
    The wars were recognised as having many sides, and it was perfectly clear Tudjman, Izbetgovic and others were scum just as much as Milosovic.

    None of which exonerates Serbia's 'we didn't do it, and besides, the others did it too'.


    You and Sarmatian bring up excellent and controversial points. I can not possibly answer all of them point-by-point. Besides, a 'quote-rebuttal; quote-rebuttal; etc' post is unreadable for third parties. Instead, I've filled the thread with some more general thoughts and links.

    And instead of posting more links (and I've got some great one's up my sleeve!) I have a challenge for you and Sarmatian. Can you get yourselves to openly say: 'Yes, Srebrenica was a human disaster. An atrocity. Serbia(ns) were responsible for mass murder. I deplore this.'

    I mean, in all these Serbian threads, in all these posts, all I ever hear is 'Serbia didn't do this, Serbia didn't do that'. I have never once heard any acceptence of atrocities committed by Serbians. Which wouldn't be all that important, if only I wouldn't think it so telling of the Serbian discourse.

    Because every little injustice that befell Serbia is endlessly explored. Every atrocity that bears a faint resemblance to some similar foreign atrocity is only discussed as proof of hypocricy. Every Serb who died is meticulously mentioned. Name 'Srebrenica' and either of these Serbian reactions is possible:
    - It didn't happen (50% of Serbians believe it didn't happen at all)
    - Look! Here is a picture of a Serbian child who died four years later.
    - It wasn't 8000. Only 4000 bodies have so far been discovered yet!!
    - Foreign agitation caused it. NATO, the US, Europe, the Turks.

    Never do I ever hear even a simple 'Serbians killed many'.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  11. #41
    L'Etranger Senior Member Banquo's Ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Hunting the Snark, a long way from Tipperary...
    Posts
    5,604

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    For I am Jim, the Antichrist. From California. By day: a mild-mannered civil servant and poster on these boards. By night: Satan. And a part-time grocery-bagger at the Albertson's on Valley Parkway.

    You have been warned.
    We were already warned when you inadvertantly revealed your true nature in this thread. (And EMFM reacted by giving you the number 13...)



    "If there is a sin against life, it consists not so much in despairing as in hoping for another life and in eluding the implacable grandeur of this one."
    Albert Camus "Noces"

  12. #42
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wokingham
    Posts
    3,523

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    The wars were recognised as having many sides, and it was perfectly clear Tudjman, Izbetgovic and others were scum just as much as Milosovic.” It is more now, it wasn’t.

    'Yes, Srebrenica was a human disaster. An atrocity. Serbia(ns) were responsible for mass murder. I deplore this.”
    I said it. One of the most massive “discussion” I had with my best friend (my kum) was about Srebrenica. I was a professional soldier so you just don’t kill prisoners of war.
    It was a war crime, not a genocide.
    If you speak with Serbs who were involved in the wars, they, most of them, don’t deny their side did bad things. They are not proud of it but the defence reaction comes because they are presented as the only culpable.

    I read somewhere about Ocarva, Vukovar, how the Serbs killed Croatians Defender. Again, they were caught (more or less naked as they tried to escape) just after the Serbians local defence, militia, paramilitaries whatever, found the kinder garden massacre, Toddler, old person, teenagers and some adult slaughtered by the Croatian local defence, militia, paramilitaries whatever using axes, hammers and other tools.
    Yes, they should have been judge in front of a court and not killed. But did the article did mentioned the first bit? No, of course…
    No body speak about the disappearance of dozen of Serbian patients from Vukovar hospital under the control of the Angel of Vukovar as she was named in the media. The Serbs prefer the Mengele of Vukovar…

    Ooops, have to go to work… To be continued…
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  13. #43
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by Banquo's Ghost View Post
    We were already warned when you inadvertantly revealed your true nature in this thread. (And EMFM reacted by giving you the number 13...)



    Muahahahaha way to go Kukri a diehard facist under that friendly facade you never see it comming, can I polish your boots?

    edit; Brenus, glad I'm not you.
    Last edited by Fragony; 07-17-2009 at 14:02.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wokingham
    Posts
    3,523

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    "Brenus, glad I'm not you": Happy for you you are happy to be you.
    However any reason for this comment?
    Last edited by Brenus; 07-17-2009 at 16:16. Reason: sp
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  15. #45
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The EUSSR
    Posts
    30,680

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    "Brenus, glad I'm not you": Happy for you you are happy to be you.
    However any reason for this comment?
    As in not having to be there

    lil edit, I have heard some pretty harrowing things.
    Last edited by Fragony; 07-17-2009 at 17:11.

  16. #46
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    In ur nun, causing a bloody schism!
    Posts
    7,906

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    For I am Jim, the Antichrist. From California. By day: a mild-mannered civil servant and poster on these boards. By night: Satan. And a part-time grocery-bagger at the Albertson's on Valley Parkway.

    You have been warned.
    Huh. Have you ever worked with Chad Vader?


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  17. #47
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Posts
    4,315

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post

    And instead of posting more links (and I've got some great one's up my sleeve!) I have a challenge for you and Sarmatian. Can you get yourselves to openly say: 'Yes, Srebrenica was a human disaster. An atrocity. Serbia(ns) were responsible for mass murder. I deplore this.'
    Can I copy/paste it or do I have to type it personally? Should I say it out loud, record and upload it to youtube? Children, can you say "redundant"...

    Yes, I believe Srebrenica was a massacre, an atrocity, a war crime and a crime against humanity. I believe I've said it earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    I mean, in all these Serbian threads, in all these posts, all I ever hear is 'Serbia didn't do this, Serbia didn't do that'. I have never once heard any acceptence of atrocities committed by Serbians. Which wouldn't be all that important, if only I wouldn't think it so telling of the Serbian discourse.

    Because every little injustice that befell Serbia is endlessly explored. Every atrocity that bears a faint resemblance to some similar foreign atrocity is only discussed as proof of hypocricy. Every Serb who died is meticulously mentioned. Name 'Srebrenica' and either of these Serbian reactions is possible:
    - It didn't happen (50% of Serbians believe it didn't happen at all)
    - Look! Here is a picture of a Serbian child who died four years later.
    - It wasn't 8000. Only 4000 bodies have so far been discovered yet!!
    - Foreign agitation caused it. NATO, the US, Europe, the Turks.

    Never do I ever hear even a simple 'Serbians killed many'.
    Because you ask the wrong questions. When you presenting your case as Serbs=Bad Guys, everybody else=Good Guys, I'm hardly gonna start talking about Serbian crimes. That would mean that I agree with your position.

    Even though I agree with the part that Serbs committed crimes, I don't agree with your position in general.

    You say that every Serb who dies is meticulously mentioned. Name one. Name one atrocity against Serbs (without googling). From the top of your head... Do you know of any? Now name an atrocity committed by the Serbs, again without googling. I'm pretty sure you'll have hard time with the first one and that you will be to name several in the second. Now, we still lack really reliable data about casualties but what we know is that number of killed civilians is relatively similar for all sides. It's not like there are 10 Muslim civilians killed for every Serbian civilian. It's relatively close (depends on the source somewhat).

    I wanna challenge something else that you've said, namely the part where 50% of Serbs don't believe it happened. I find that hard to believe. Pretty much all people I've ever talked with about Srebrenica don't deny it happened. What's your source on that and how was the question phrased? If it was something like "Do you believe that Srebrenica was a genocide?" or "do you believe that 8000-10000" people were killed at Srebrenica?" I guess many people would say no. Answer would probably be different if it was phrased "Do you believe that massacre at Srebrenica happened?" or "do you believe that Srebrenica is a war crime?"...

  18. #48
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Saint Antoine
    Posts
    9,935

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    I wanna challenge something else that you've said, namely the part where 50% of Serbs don't believe it happened. I find that hard to believe. Pretty much all people I've ever talked with about Srebrenica don't deny it happened. What's your source on that and how was the question phrased?
    I always have a linkfor those who request one.

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Times
    LJUBLJANA, Slovenia, June 2 - Almost 10 years after the massacre of more than 7,000 Muslim men and boys by Serbian security forces in Srebrenica, a video has surfaced that presents graphic details of their fate. Several people in the video were arrested as a result, the Serbian prime minister said Thursday.

    The tape - shown at the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia in The Hague on Wednesday and rebroadcast on Serbian television on Thursday - shows the killing of six Muslim men by members of a Serbian paramilitary police unit.

    While the number of those killed represents a tiny proportion of those who died in July 1995, the video is being seen as irrefutable evidence that Serbia's police forces, and not just Bosnian Serb forces, took part in the massacre, evidence that challenges the commonly held view among Serbs that the atrocity never took place.

    The killings, which began July 11, 1995, in a designated United Nations safe haven overrun by Serbs, are widely acknowledged to be the worst atrocities committed in Europe since World War II.

    The massacre represented the final push by Bosnian Serb forces to forge an "ethnically pure" state within Bosnia and end the war on their own terms. The atrocities ultimately prompted Western military intervention to end the conflict.

    A decade later many Serbs say they are either unaware of war crimes or refuse to accept that their police or security forces could have committed them.

    [...]

    Public opinion remains strongly nationalist in Serbia a decade after the end of the war in Bosnia. An opinion poll published by the Belgrade-based Strategic Marketing Research in April showed that more than 50 percent of respondents either did not know about war crimes in Bosnia, or did not believe they had taken place. The poll was conducted by phone and surveyed 1,200 people.
    I assume the poll and its results were conducted in Serbian, so I didn't pursue it any further to its original source.

    Edit: Okay I did pursue it. Searching 'Srebrenica' or 'Bosnia' on what I assume is the site of this
    Strategic Marketing Research yielded no results.
    http://www.smmri.co.yu/code/navigate.asp?Id=38
    Last edited by Louis VI the Fat; 07-18-2009 at 23:12.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  19. #49
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Posts
    4,315

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Hmm, I was hoping for something concrete. A link to the actual survey or something like that. Strategic Marketing is known for delivering results that are expected by the party that ordered the surveys and their methods aren't exactly to the highest standards (I did some part time work for them), so margin of error is a bit bigger than usual.

    Anyway, the article is a bit vague in that part, first part is about one particular crime and then mentions survey about war crimes in general. There's no link to the actual survey, it doesn't say how was the question phrased and when was the survey performed. The article itself is 4 years old. I'll try to find something fresher.

  20. #50
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wokingham
    Posts
    3,523

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Louis, I am not convince by your link. It is an affirmation more than a study: who, when and where being absent…
    Can do better as would have said our teachers…

    Now, you ask the Serbs to stop the victimisation.
    Will you ask the others sides to do the same?
    Will you ask the Bosnians to stop to pretend they had no weapons and that they never ever did bad things? Will you ask them to stop to produce inflated figures concerning their casualties?
    To stop to commemorate unproved Serbian crimes?

    Will you recognise that the Croatian Serbs had good reasons to fear the new Tudjman Regime and the return of the Ustasa? That they were right to fear the Kosovar Albanians will to leave together in the same country?
    Will you recognise that when the Serbian population asked for independence/autonomy they were bombed, and when a minority ask to separate from the Serbs the Serbs were bombed?
    Do you accept that in all the Former Yugoslav wars, bomb the Serbs was the result and the politic?

    When Serbia, arms (both) twisted by the so-called International Community (in a method known in all school yards as bullying) “admitted" the 7000 victims in Sebrenica (victims we still don’t have the bodies, graves or names, it didn’t bring a “South African” type of reconciliation but a claim for compensation… So I can understand why they won’t admit any wrongdoing.

    And Louis, figures are important. If not we go for "who steal an egg, steal a cow, who steal a cow kill the cow boy"... (qui vole un oeuf vole un boeuf, qui vole un boeuf tue le bouvier).
    And a video for a cold blood murder is not a proof of a genocide by the way...

    The civil war in Bosnia is still presented as an aggression by the media. The war in Croatia is still presented like a war of conquest.
    It wasn’t.
    The Serbs were far from innocents. But in saying this I was accused to be pro-Serb, so can’t be trusted.
    You could be openly pro Croats (as Filkenkraut did), pro Bosnian (Izetbegovic, of course, not Fikret Abdic) as Bernard Henry Levy did, but you couldn’t say something like a slight doubts about Serbian guilt…
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  21. #51
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Posts
    4,315

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Found something, not really what I was looking for but definitely better. link (in serbian, I'll translate the important part.

    Survey conducted between 13th and 16th March 2007 by telephone, 722 persons older than 18 from every bigger city in Serbia (Belgrade, Novi Sad, Nis, Kragujevac, Vranje, Leskovac, Pancevo, Zrenjanin, Subotica, Loznica, Valjevo, Smederevo, Negotin, Jagodina etc...)

    The part concerning Srebrenica -> 38,37% thinks that the genocide story is fabricated. Now, this is important, they're not denying the crime, they're denying that it was genocide. 36,98% thinks that neither side has been objective when it comes to Srebrenica.
    The survey was made when there was a big discussion in the Serbian Skupstina (Parliament) should there be a special declaration about Srebrenica so survey dealt with the issue of the declaration more than Srebrenica itself.

    The other question where whether now (2007) is the right time to deal with what happened in Srebrenica 48,61% thinks that it is always the right time for the truth, whatever it may be and 32,55% thinks that history should give the final judgement on Srebrenica, in a sense there should be no special declaration now.

    That is more in line with what I've been encountering. Virtually no one has denied that Srebrenica is a war crime (except far right and neonazi organizations) but most will deny that it was a genocide and I think a decent chunk will say that Srebrenica has been abused to present the entire conflict in a black and white manner. That's why I asked how was the question (or questions) phrased, that's the most important part.

    I'll try to find something better but as I suspected, the info from that article you linked to is pretty much useless.

    EDIT: Just to strengthen my point, this is a statement by Vojislav Seselj (for those who don't know about him, he is currently in Hague on trial for war crimes, leader of the nationalist Serbian Radical Party, the most vocal proponent of Greater Serbia. Basically, Serbian Jörg Haider, but on steroids) ---->

    Streljanje muslimanskih zarobljenika u Srebrenici je najveća sramota za srpski narod

    Translation: The shooting of the Muslim POWs in Srebrenica is the biggest disgrace of the Serbian people
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 07-19-2009 at 23:19.

  22. #52
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Saint Antoine
    Posts
    9,935

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    post above
    Those are too many questions and points for me to adress in any meaningful way within the constraints of a forum post. I'll pick out a few points:


    Firstly, yes, the Croats were in the grip of national-fascism. Yes, there were althogether too many Islamofascists in Bosnia. Yes, Kosovo is run by thugs.


    B:You could be openly pro Croats (as Filkenkraut did), pro Bosnian (Izetbegovic, of course, not Fikret Abdic) as Bernard Henry Levy did
    - Whether Finkelkraut has a natural sympathy for Croatian nazi Ustasas, and BHL for Islamicists is a matter of debate. Me, I'd say that his and BHL's concern was grounded more in Jewish thought being a bit sensitive to thousands of unarmed civilians being dragged into an East European forest to be shot in a mass grave they had to dig.


    B:it didn’t bring a “South African” type of reconciliation but a claim for compensation… So I can understand why they won’t admit any wrongdoing.
    - The Bosnian victims do not want a Serbian admittance only because of financial compensation. As usual, truth is a more important consideration for genocide victims than a few thousand euros in exchange for a dead son.


    B:When Serbia, arms (both) twisted by the so-called International Community “admitted" the 7000 victims in Sebrenica (victims we still don’t have the bodies, graves or names,
    [...]
    And Louis, figures are important.

    - Here is the game Serbia / Bosnian Serbs plays: Hide the bodies. Dig 'em up and rebury them. Dig 'em up again and burn and scatter the remains. Hide evidence. Do not co-operate. Falsify reports. Shelter perpetrators.
    Then cry 'anti-Serbianism!!' at everybody who has the nerve to assume that the body count is probably higher than the number of victims that costly UN forensics have so far managed to exhume.

    But we'll get there, Brenus. Slowly, one body part at a time, we are getting there. Truth is being exhumed. We'll get the murderers their 'bodies, graves, and names'.
    DNA Results of the International Commission on Missing Persons Reveal the Identity of 6,186 Srebrenica Victims
    Article posted on July 9, 2009

    Through the use of DNA identity testing, the International Commission on Missing Persons (ICMP) has revealed the identity of 6,186 persons missing from the July 1995 fall of Srebrenica, by analyzing DNA profiles extracted from bone samples of exhumed mortal remains and matching them to the DNA profiles obtained from blood samples donated by relatives of the missing. The overall high matching rate between DNA extracted from these bone and blood samples leads ICMP to support an estimate of close to 8,100 individuals missing from the fall of Srebrenica.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The ICMP has made to date a total of 12,520 accurate, DNA-led identifications of individuals from all of Bosnia-Herzegovina since ICMP’s DNA system went online in 2001. In the case of BiH, ICMP has DNA profiles from more than 69,051 blood samples collected from relatives and 25,033 bone samples from human remains on its database. The number of subsequent identifications made is much lower than this figure as more than one family member’s blood sample is needed for a positive match, and often several bone samples from a victim’s remains are needed for a positive DNA match.

    Yet despite ICMP’s world-class forensic system, and despite having built the forensic facilities at Lukavac and at the Podrinje Identification Project in Tuzla specifically for the identification of victims of Srebrenica, their identification remains an extremely difficult, complex and time-consuming process. To expedite this process, more information is needed on the locations of burial and mass grave sites.

    “The fact that ICMP has made nearly 6,200 identifications of Srebrenica victims is a remarkable success, and something that many people had said from the beginning would be impossible to accomplish,” said ICMP’s Director-General Ms. Kathryne Bomberger.

    “However, it is a success of science that has sprung out of immense human tragedy: more than 520 bodies are being buried at Potocari this week, in addition to the 3,127 already buried here. Many families of Srebrenica victims are still waiting for information on their missing relatives. Many families who have identified their relatives are waiting for more remains to be exhumed from secondary mass grave sites before they bury their loved ones. So what we desperately need is for individuals with more information about the location of grave and burial sites to come forward.”

    In many cases the perpetrators of Srebrenica removed mortal remains from one ‘primary’ mass grave and hid them in multiple sites in an attempt to conceal evidence of war crimes, thus leaving a trail of disarticulated skeletal remains, whereby body-parts of the same person can be found in different sites. In one case, ICMP identified a man missing from the fall of Srebrenica whose remains were found in four different mass graves two of which were 20 km from the other two locations.

    The introduction of DNA by the ICMP as the basis for identifying large numbers of missing persons from the 1990’s conflicts in the Western Balkans enabled accurate identifications of persons that would never otherwise have been identified. The first DNA match, for a 15 year-old boy from Srebrenica, was made on November 16, 2001.
    See? You can murder a man. Rape teenage girls with your mates. Laughing.

    And hide the crimes, go in hiding, and tell the world everybody is a bunch of liars.

    Maybe the world will even believe you.

    But some won't. And they have a long memory too. And patience, plentiful funds, excellent forensic experts, 21st century satellite images, ever more refined DNA instruments.
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  23. #53
    TexMec Senior Member Louis VI the Fat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Saint Antoine
    Posts
    9,935

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian
    The part concerning Srebrenica -> 38,37% thinks that the genocide story is fabricated. Now, this is important, they're not denying the crime, they're denying that it was genocide.
    Ah. I see.

    As I neither speak Serbian, nor care much for debates about semantics and the exact line between genocide and mass murder, I must rest the subject.

    Thank you for your translation effort!
    One more remark struck me: that 'Srebrenica has been abused to present the entire conflict in a black and white manner'.
    There is truth in that. Although I would not say abused. Nor 'black and white presentation of the conflict'.
    I would say 'featured prominently in Western public opinion'. If you seek to understand the NATO bombings of 1999, I think here you have one major element. Srebrenica was a disgrace, and a public relations disaster for Serbia. 'No more Srebrenica's', more than any particular sympathy for the Kosovar crooks, or geo-political goals, was the reason behind the NATO bombings.

    One more link! The Srebrenica genocide:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The Malicious Massacre of Men



    The executions that followed on July 13-16, 1995, took place in various locations and had various numbers of victims, including men from both the group that was separated from the women and children and the refugees from the column who had been captured (Wikipedia, 2006). A few " men from each site managed to survive and provide details of the horrific events they bore witness to (Haverford, 2006). Their accounts, as well as accounts from some of the soldiers who carried out the horrific acts, provide a glimpse into the events of this tragedy.

    In what was a well-planned succession of events, the victims were transported from building to building and held for long periods of time without food or water before they were finally executed. The VRS troops, out of what can only be understood as boredom and brutality, would often barbarically torture individuals items such as crowbars, knives, and axes before killing them during trips from one holding site to another or during the nights (Danner, 1998b). Those not physically tormented were nonetheless emotionally tortured as they heard the agonizing wails of others and desperately prayed that their own deaths would be quick and painless.

    Throughout the entire elaborate plan "cleansing" the Muslims, the VRS did they could to keep their prisoners in the dark about what was really happening, repeatedly promising the Muslims . that they were working out negotiations with the UN and that they would all soon be free. The Bosnia Serbs wanted to keep Muslim hopes up m keep them from revolting, something that would have put a damper on their plan (Danner, 1998b). However, the of many of the VRS troops the horrific events the Muslims witnessed while in the hands of the VRS left many of them with little hope.

    Some men were killed indiVidually or in small groups, but the majority of the murders took place in mass numbers. The soldiers performed executions by taking the men into fields, lining them up, and shooting them to death. Most of the time the victims were blindfolded and had their hands bound in order to minimize their attempts to resist. Often the soldiers gave the victims a slow and painful death, dragging out their misery for as long as possible before finally taking their lives.

    In one of the mass murders, between 1,000 and 1,500 men were crammed into a pitch-black warehouse. Soldiers began throwing grenades into the warehouse and shooting their machine guns into the building. Any men who tried to escape from the building were immediately gunned down by the soldiers (Wikepedia, 2006).

    Other gruesome killing sprees took place at schools. On one occasion, the Muslim men were packed into a school gym so tightly that they could not even sit down without being on top of each other. After sustaining these miserable conditions for 2 nights without any food or water, soldiers began taking smaller groups of men out to a farm and shooting them in their backs, often beating and torturing them before finally executing them (Wikipedia, 2006).

    What many consider to be the worst of the massacre took place at a soccer field near Nova Kasaba. While at some sites there was grave digging machinery, at the soccer field selected men were forced to dig graves and watch others be shot into those Eventually, these men and were shot into their own graves. When a bulldozer finally did arrive, around 400 men were thrown into a grave and buried alive (Danner, 1998b; GW, 2002).

    After all was said and done, between the days of July 11-16, 1995, over 8,000 Muslim men were killed in Bosnia.

    The Serbian cover-up:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Following the massacre, a handful of survivors from various massacre sites came forward and offered their testimonies, describing the brutal and horrific murders they witnessed.

    After hearing their stories, and based on satellite photos taken of a Serb-held area of Bosnia, on August 10, 1995, the United States made public charges against BosnianSerb forces. One set Of photos displayed a soccer field crowded with prisoners; a second photo taken days later displayed an empty field with disturbed earth (Rohde, 1995).

    The Bosnian Serbs maintained that the graves were filled with Muslim soldiers killed during combat and denied the accusations that a massacre took place. However, on October 29, 1995, reporters from the Christian Science Monitor, during an unauthorized visit, discovered a heap of clothing, shoes, and eyeglasses next to what appeared to be a freshly dug grave in the city of Sahanici. There were no signs that a battle took place, and a few canes as well as a crutch were also discovered--evidence that countered the Bosnian Serbs' that the graves contained Muslim combat casualties (Rohde, 1995).

    For as long as they could manage, Milosevic, YNA, and Bosnian-Serb forces would not allow war crime investigators access to any of the mass graves. Without being able to freely investigate the land, U.S. spy planes were able to identify additional possible mass grave sites near Srebrenica. Amongst these sites, reporters from the Christian Science Monitor discovered "human remains, documents from Srebrenica, Muslim identity cards, personal photos with Muslim names on them, [and] civilian clothing" (Rohde, 1995).

    Finally, almost a year after the massacre, in July of 1996, forensic experts performed exhumations of some of the mass grave sites without the permission of Serb authorities (CNN, 1996a, 1996b). Over the next few months, more graves, and consequently human remains, were discovered in areas surrounding Srebrenica. However, much to the surprise of UN investigators, by November of 1996, they had found less than 10% of the Muslim men who were missing. Each grave contained far fewer bodies than expected. With Milosevic successfully denying access to the grave sites for almost a year, it was suspected that the Bosnian Serbs had taken the necessary actions to cover up the massacre (Swain, 1996).

    As time drew on, more grave sites were discovered and extamed, and and more bodies were accounted for, Investigators found many bodies in smaller graves in areas farther from Srebrenica. The Bosnian Serb's cover-up was slowly being revealed one grave at a time. The bodies were easily linked to Srebrenica, as several licenses and photographs of Muslims who had been in Srebrenica were found in the graves (Haverford, 2006). The Bosnian-Serb war criminals were suspected of trying to hide the massacre by digging up the primary burial sites and relocating the bodies in many smaller graves to make it seem as though the graves contained only the victims of small battles (Wood, 2004).

    Their findings led investigators to suspect that three types of graves existed: undisturbed primary sites, disturbed primary sites, and secondary sites. The theory was the primary grave sites were sites where Muslim victims had been buried immediately following their executions in July 1995. Some of these graves had been undisturbed while others displayed signs that bodies had been removed and relocated. The secondary sites were suspected as the burial sites containing bodies that were moved from the disturbed primary grave sites in the fall of 1995 (Haverford, 2006).

    Even in the large graves with fewer bodies, forensic investigations found significant evidence suggesting that most of the victims were not killed during combat. Hundreds of blindfolds and ligatures were found in the graves and many of the remains displayed evidence of execution-style deaths.

    Also, prosthetic limbs, canes, and crutches found in the graves suggested that many of the victims were severely handicapped and would not have been able to fight in combat (Haverford, 2006).

    Although it seemed as though there was plenty of proof that the Bosnian Serbs were responsible for the atrocious massacre, investigators still needed forensic evidence to the primary grave sites to the secondary sites. Such evidence would prove that the primary grave sites were originally mass graves resulting from a massacre and reveal the organized efforts the Bosnian Serbs took to conceal the evidence.

    Exhuming the Evidence: Proof Grounded in Soil and Pollen

    A team from the UN International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia used pollen and soil to help bring justice to the victims of the Srebrenica massacre and their families. From 1997 through 2000, as part of what is believed to be the first war crimes investigation using environmental profiling techniques, the forensic team performed exhumations of primary and secondary mass grave sites to collect and analyze pollen and soil sediments. By analyzing samples from each grave site, investigators were hoping to find conclusive evidence that would link secondary grave sites to primary grave sites.

    Over 24 different sites were examined with over 240 samples collected and analyzed (Brown, in press).

    Each of the five primary grave sites examined contained distinctive soil, vegetation, and minerals. The investigations were aimed to find traces of soil, pollen, and minerals at each of the 19 secondary grave sites that matched the primary grave sites, proving that soil and pollen sediments were transferred to the secondary grave sites with the bodies (Brown, 2006). If the BosnianSerbs were telling the truth, all of the geological substances found within a secondary grave would have come from the area around... [article continues in link]
    Anything unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
    Texan by birth, woodpecker by the grace of God
    I would be the voice of your conscience if you had one - Brenus
    Bt why woulf we uy lsn'y Staraft - Fragony
    Not everything
    blue and underlined is a link


  24. #54
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    9,748

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    There is truth in that.
    You rang, sir?

    Whilst you are valiantly defending the truth, I am valiantly consuming your courgettes and drinking your rosé. Yes, I am on my yearly European pilgrimage; Germany will be honoured in late August, the UK in the fall. For the time being I am slumbering in the "douceur Angévine". Allow me to recommend the Chateau Brissac, produced at the chateau of the once mighty Duc de Brissé, great Leaguist and marshall of France. Six euro a bottle for such goodness - l`Anjou vaut bien une messe. I have also bought a shipload of new history books: biographies of LaFayette, Louis XIV, Robespierre, Richelieu..

    So, um, keep it up and à la prochaine.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  25. #55
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Posts
    4,315

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Ah. I see.

    As I neither speak Serbian, nor care much for debates about semantics and the exact line between genocide and mass murder, I must rest the subject.
    The point is exactly that it is not a matter of semantics. The words "war crime" and "genocide" are not interchangeable. War crime is something that happens often in Iraq, in Afghanistan and in every war that has been fought to this day. Genocide is systematic and organized killing of a nation (or ethnic or religious group) with the point of eradicating it. The word genocide is used too casually nowadays, and not just when it comes to Yugoslavia conflict.

    Utter the word genocide and the first thing that comes to mind is the holocaust. Before Srebrenica, there was a concentration camp picture. PR companies were aware of that and were pursuing that direction to make it look like the WW2 and to present Serbs as the nazis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    Thank you for your translation effort!
    One more remark struck me: that 'Srebrenica has been abused to present the entire conflict in a black and white manner'.
    There is truth in that. Although I would not say abused. Nor 'black and white presentation of the conflict'.
    I would say 'featured prominently in Western public opinion'.
    This is more like semantics. I'm willing to accept that your phrase is more appropriate. My English is decent, but not quite the level of yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    If you seek to understand the NATO bombings of 1999, I think here you have one major element. Srebrenica was a disgrace, and a public relations disaster for Serbia. 'No more Srebrenica's', more than any particular sympathy for the Kosovar crooks, or geo-political goals, was the reason behind the NATO bombings.
    This is very, very true. In fact, the entire war in Bosnia in Croatia is one huge PR disaster for Serbia. Not only there was not any active propaganda, there was intense dislike for any journalists. They often weren't allowed access to crimes committed against the Serbs. Media and PR as tools were totally ignored. We learned our lesson by 1999, fortunately. I'd dare say that one of the most important reason that 1999 bombing and what happened afterward in Kosovo is seen differently than Bosnia and Croatia in the West is because of that.

    Of course, it is a bit worrying, because it appears that most important things in war today isn't who's right but who has better PR. The first thing that Russia did in the conflict with Georgia is to hire a PR firm in the US. There's Georgian military in South Ossetia? Ok, first hire a PR firm in America and then give the orders to the army to respond.


    Quote Originally Posted by Louis VI the Fat View Post
    One more link! The Srebrenica genocide:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The Malicious Massacre of Men

    The executions that followed on July 13-16, 1995, took place in various locations and had various numbers of victims, including men from both the group that was separated from the women and children and the refugees from the column who had been captured (Wikipedia, 2006). A few " men from each site managed to survive and provide details of the horrific events they bore witness to (Haverford, 2006). Their accounts, as well as accounts from some of the soldiers who carried out the horrific acts, provide a glimpse into the events of this tragedy.

    In what was a well-planned succession of events, the victims were transported from building to building and held for long periods of time without food or water before they were finally executed. The VRS troops, out of what can only be understood as boredom and brutality, would often barbarically torture individuals items such as crowbars, knives, and axes before killing them during trips from one holding site to another or during the nights (Danner, 1998b). Those not physically tormented were nonetheless emotionally tortured as they heard the agonizing wails of others and desperately prayed that their own deaths would be quick and painless.

    Throughout the entire elaborate plan "cleansing" the Muslims, the VRS did they could to keep their prisoners in the dark about what was really happening, repeatedly promising the Muslims . that they were working out negotiations with the UN and that they would all soon be free. The Bosnia Serbs wanted to keep Muslim hopes up m keep them from revolting, something that would have put a damper on their plan (Danner, 1998b). However, the of many of the VRS troops the horrific events the Muslims witnessed while in the hands of the VRS left many of them with little hope.

    Some men were killed indiVidually or in small groups, but the majority of the murders took place in mass numbers. The soldiers performed executions by taking the men into fields, lining them up, and shooting them to death. Most of the time the victims were blindfolded and had their hands bound in order to minimize their attempts to resist. Often the soldiers gave the victims a slow and painful death, dragging out their misery for as long as possible before finally taking their lives.

    In one of the mass murders, between 1,000 and 1,500 men were crammed into a pitch-black warehouse. Soldiers began throwing grenades into the warehouse and shooting their machine guns into the building. Any men who tried to escape from the building were immediately gunned down by the soldiers (Wikepedia, 2006).

    Other gruesome killing sprees took place at schools. On one occasion, the Muslim men were packed into a school gym so tightly that they could not even sit down without being on top of each other. After sustaining these miserable conditions for 2 nights without any food or water, soldiers began taking smaller groups of men out to a farm and shooting them in their backs, often beating and torturing them before finally executing them (Wikipedia, 2006).

    What many consider to be the worst of the massacre took place at a soccer field near Nova Kasaba. While at some sites there was grave digging machinery, at the soccer field selected men were forced to dig graves and watch others be shot into those Eventually, these men and were shot into their own graves. When a bulldozer finally did arrive, around 400 men were thrown into a grave and buried alive (Danner, 1998b; GW, 2002).

    After all was said and done, between the days of July 11-16, 1995, over 8,000 Muslim men were killed in Bosnia.

    The Serbian cover-up:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Following the massacre, a handful of survivors from various massacre sites came forward and offered their testimonies, describing the brutal and horrific murders they witnessed.

    After hearing their stories, and based on satellite photos taken of a Serb-held area of Bosnia, on August 10, 1995, the United States made public charges against BosnianSerb forces. One set Of photos displayed a soccer field crowded with prisoners; a second photo taken days later displayed an empty field with disturbed earth (Rohde, 1995).

    The Bosnian Serbs maintained that the graves were filled with Muslim soldiers killed during combat and denied the accusations that a massacre took place. However, on October 29, 1995, reporters from the Christian Science Monitor, during an unauthorized visit, discovered a heap of clothing, shoes, and eyeglasses next to what appeared to be a freshly dug grave in the city of Sahanici. There were no signs that a battle took place, and a few canes as well as a crutch were also discovered--evidence that countered the Bosnian Serbs' that the graves contained Muslim combat casualties (Rohde, 1995).

    For as long as they could manage, Milosevic, YNA, and Bosnian-Serb forces would not allow war crime investigators access to any of the mass graves. Without being able to freely investigate the land, U.S. spy planes were able to identify additional possible mass grave sites near Srebrenica. Amongst these sites, reporters from the Christian Science Monitor discovered "human remains, documents from Srebrenica, Muslim identity cards, personal photos with Muslim names on them, [and] civilian clothing" (Rohde, 1995).

    Finally, almost a year after the massacre, in July of 1996, forensic experts performed exhumations of some of the mass grave sites without the permission of Serb authorities (CNN, 1996a, 1996b). Over the next few months, more graves, and consequently human remains, were discovered in areas surrounding Srebrenica. However, much to the surprise of UN investigators, by November of 1996, they had found less than 10% of the Muslim men who were missing. Each grave contained far fewer bodies than expected. With Milosevic successfully denying access to the grave sites for almost a year, it was suspected that the Bosnian Serbs had taken the necessary actions to cover up the massacre (Swain, 1996).

    As time drew on, more grave sites were discovered and extamed, and and more bodies were accounted for, Investigators found many bodies in smaller graves in areas farther from Srebrenica. The Bosnian Serb's cover-up was slowly being revealed one grave at a time. The bodies were easily linked to Srebrenica, as several licenses and photographs of Muslims who had been in Srebrenica were found in the graves (Haverford, 2006). The Bosnian-Serb war criminals were suspected of trying to hide the massacre by digging up the primary burial sites and relocating the bodies in many smaller graves to make it seem as though the graves contained only the victims of small battles (Wood, 2004).

    Their findings led investigators to suspect that three types of graves existed: undisturbed primary sites, disturbed primary sites, and secondary sites. The theory was the primary grave sites were sites where Muslim victims had been buried immediately following their executions in July 1995. Some of these graves had been undisturbed while others displayed signs that bodies had been removed and relocated. The secondary sites were suspected as the burial sites containing bodies that were moved from the disturbed primary grave sites in the fall of 1995 (Haverford, 2006).

    Even in the large graves with fewer bodies, forensic investigations found significant evidence suggesting that most of the victims were not killed during combat. Hundreds of blindfolds and ligatures were found in the graves and many of the remains displayed evidence of execution-style deaths.

    Also, prosthetic limbs, canes, and crutches found in the graves suggested that many of the victims were severely handicapped and would not have been able to fight in combat (Haverford, 2006).

    Although it seemed as though there was plenty of proof that the Bosnian Serbs were responsible for the atrocious massacre, investigators still needed forensic evidence to the primary grave sites to the secondary sites. Such evidence would prove that the primary grave sites were originally mass graves resulting from a massacre and reveal the organized efforts the Bosnian Serbs took to conceal the evidence.

    Exhuming the Evidence: Proof Grounded in Soil and Pollen

    A team from the UN International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia used pollen and soil to help bring justice to the victims of the Srebrenica massacre and their families. From 1997 through 2000, as part of what is believed to be the first war crimes investigation using environmental profiling techniques, the forensic team performed exhumations of primary and secondary mass grave sites to collect and analyze pollen and soil sediments. By analyzing samples from each grave site, investigators were hoping to find conclusive evidence that would link secondary grave sites to primary grave sites.

    Over 24 different sites were examined with over 240 samples collected and analyzed (Brown, in press).

    Each of the five primary grave sites examined contained distinctive soil, vegetation, and minerals. The investigations were aimed to find traces of soil, pollen, and minerals at each of the 19 secondary grave sites that matched the primary grave sites, proving that soil and pollen sediments were transferred to the secondary grave sites with the bodies (Brown, 2006). If the BosnianSerbs were telling the truth, all of the geological substances found within a secondary grave would have come from the area around... [article continues in link]
    Oh yeah, we're up to our ears in witnesses. The lack of witnesses for what happened in Yugoslavia was never a problem. The lack of credible witnesses was. Take a look at this video. You don't have to look the entire video, just look the part between 6:01 and 6:10. You'll see a guy talking about crimes committed by Serbs, one of 5 or 6 guys. They are all presented in a slideshow style, with saying only a few sentences each, to give the viewer the impression there are countless witnesses. Now, take a look at this video, not the whole one again just from 5:15 to 6:54. It shows the exact same guy but it show app. a minute and a half of his testimony instead of just one line.

    That's the power of the media. Show just one part and not the whole picture and the person viewing it will get a totally different picture that has little in common with reality.

    I think you're beating a dead horse with Srebrenica here. I'm in complete agreement with you about Srebrenica, but you're projecting Srebrenica on everything that has happened from 1991 to 1999, possibly even 2008 (recognition of Kosovo independence).

  26. #56
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wokingham
    Posts
    3,523

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Through the use of DNA identity testing, the International Commission on Missing Persons (ICMP) has revealed the identity of 6,186 persons missing from the July 1995 fall of Srebrenica, by analyzing DNA profiles extracted from bone samples of exhumed mortal remains and matching them to the DNA profiles obtained from blood samples donated by relatives of the missing. The overall high matching rate between DNA extracted from these bone and blood samples leads ICMP to support an estimate of close to 8,100 individuals missing from the fall of Srebrenica.”

    Louis, they didn’t.
    There was an estimation of 8 100 missing. This was including the few thousands who escape to Serbia then to Tuzla…

    I do remember the Satellite pictures. Never shown. Why?
    The principle in this case is easy to understand.
    There are 8 000 innocent people genocided and if we don’t find the bodies it is because the Serbs are good in hiding the bodies… Right…
    In hills and mountains, with forest path, in Bosnia, you are stuck immediately after few lorries.
    The logistic included in this scenario (and until know not proved at all) is simply very difficult to maintain, especially under satellite surveillance which are able to count the number of golf balls lost on a field…

    You can murder a man. Rape teenage girls with your mates. Laughing” You can do worst. I could tell you, but I won’t, because just thinking about it, even know, is very hard…

    21st century satellite images”: You mean, the same one that didn’t see the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade? Joking…

    The problem is the satellite pictures showed nothing… And the forensic didn’t find the bodies.

    Louis, the claim that you unburied bodies in secret, without the Serbian Authorities from Pale knowing it is just pure propaganda (I am polite)… When I was there, I was under constant surveillance, by neighbours, agents and kind of people…

    6,200 identifications of Srebrenica victims”: I think that include all the victims for the duration of the war, including the Serbian victims… The ones killed of Naser Oric, the ones who don’t count.

    Truth is being exhumed” Nope. Not before long, because nobody dare to question the myth. Do you know how I know when the exhume bodies are Serbs: Big announce then silence…

    The Serbian cover-up”: Nope. What a journalist wrote…
    The Serbian did killed prisoners in a probably planned mass murder. That is without doubts. The doubts are about the numbers and the term genocide employed in this case.

    In focusing only on Srebrenica you did a good job because it put me in position to defend something I never defended.
    Because even if Srebrenica was never demilitarised, even if the Bosnians decided not to defend the place, even if as Gal Morillon said the Serbs felt in the trap, they did slaughter prisoners… They did it.

    You answer to no questions about the rest:
    What about the fight in Velika Vladusa?
    What about Mostar?
    What about the ethnic cleansing of Serbs in Croatia?

    I am so fed-up about all this. I am telling that the Serbs were not all guilty, I give example (massive desertion) and I end to have to defend Srebrenica…
    It is not what I said.

    You can refuse to see the Serbian victims. You can refuse to acknowledge the others crimes. I've got the habits of this. Good conscience in one side: Serbs got what they deserved.

    Few years ago, I interviewed an old Serbian refugee in Croatia: She fled her village because, well, the liberators were coming. The entire village was on the road… They were stop by the Croatian Army. All the cars, lorries and tractors had to be abandoned and the men and women were put in the nearby bushes and trees. She stayed on the tractor… She was too tired. So a young Croatian soldier arrived and asked:
    Hey baba, why are still there?
    I am too tired she said, I couldn’t go by my own.
    I will help you said the young and nice soldier.
    He took her hand, and shot two bullets in her heart.
    She survived. The UN forces founded her and the Croatian surgeons in Zagreb saved her life.
    And during all the interview she was smiling. But the blue eyes were dead.
    I sent this witness account with all details to The Hague. Guess what? We were never interviewed…

    The Croatian General Gotovina can rest assured. As the Bosnian commander Naser Oric, like the Kosovar Asim Thaci, he will be free of all charges. Killing Serbs is authorised.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  27. #57
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Posts
    4,315

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Just something for my friend Louis. Yesterday a video was leaked of Bosnian general, commander of the 5th Corps, Atif Dudakovic ordering killing of two prisoners. When he was informed that there are two prisoners, he responds with: "Shoot them on the spot". There's a cut in the video and then two guys return saying they're glad "the swines are dead". Dudakovic then congratulates them and presents them as stars of the film and himself as the director.

    Prosecution in BiH refused to comment on the video. Police in the Serb Republic said they've sent so far 30 DVDs worth of material just on Dudakovic and the 5th Corps with evidence of him ordering looting, arson, killing and torturing. Although Dudakovic has been under investigation from time to time, neither he or anyone of his close associates were ever prosecuted, let alone sentenced. Dudakovic is also famous for his actions against other Bosnian Muslims, namely those who didn't support Alija Izetbegovic. It appears that those two prisoners whose killing he ordered were in fact Muslims.

    And yet, prosecution in Bosnia isn't interested, international organizations aren't interested, Hague isn't interested, media aren't interested. Still we have the official story how 4100 something Serbian civilians in Sarajevo were killed by Serbian forces and how all Muslim were killed by either Serbs or Croats. Just wondering, when Srebrenica stops being an excuse and justification for all other crimes.... The video's from 1994, btw.

  28. #58
    Jillian & Allison's Daddy Senior Member Don Corleone's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Athens, GA
    Posts
    7,588

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Aye.

    Those who think there is no such thing as an innocent civilian shouldn't complain about 9/11 and the logic behind it.

    I suppose eight years of Bushism have taken their toll on some of the better backroom minds.
    Few are the days we agree old friend, but this would be one of them.


    To the main topic... didn't we bomb the new Chinese embassy in that campaign? While granted, they were none too happy about it, I think they were willing to accept our hapless shrug & explanation that for all our wealth and resources, we can at times be woefully incompetent. Surely the bombing of the Serbian media building was more an indictment of America's ability to parse actionable intelligence than it is evidence of a secret war on Serbian journalism?

    Else, old Hu Jintao better get on the stick with some payback...
    "A man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man."
    Don Vito Corleone: The Godfather, Part 1.

    "Then wait for them and swear to God in heaven that if they spew that bull to you or your family again you will cave there heads in with a sledgehammer"
    Strike for the South

  29. #59
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Novi Sad, Serbia
    Posts
    4,315

    Default Re: Ah, Those Journalists

    Yep, with 3 missiles, but that was (at least officially) a mistake. The embassy was mistaken for a building that had something to do with Serbian military. That explanation makes sense, why would NATO want to bomb Chinese embassy, that would serve no purpose except to make Chinese angry. China, although officially opposed to the bombing, was mostly indifferent. Giving them personal reason to be against it would be really an idiotic move. Even with all that, it involved a bit of apologizing and bottom-kissing. The TV station, on the other hand, was targeted deliberately. It was considered a legitimate target. And after that - nothing, no apologizes, no indictments, no compensation, no admitting mistake...

    Part of the reason why only Serbia and Serbs are forced to take the blame is because NATO (especially USA) wants to wash its hands. By emphasizing atrocities committed by Serbs and minimizing theirs and those committed by other side, NATO is trying to show how all of that was justified because it was done for "greater good". TV is just one example...

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO