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  1. #1
    Member Member PBI's Avatar
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    Default M.A.D. and me

    Or: Should I learn to stop worrying and love the bomb?



    I received an intriguing careers suggestion the other day. As some of you may know, I am currently coming towards the end of my PhD in theoretical physics. Having decided for various reasons not to pursue a career in my current field, I am thus in the process of looking for ideas for what to do once I graduate. In the course of this, it was mentioned to me that one possibility might be working for the nuclear arms establishment.

    Of course, I should make very clear that this is all idle speculation at this point. I have not made any concrete steps toward researching or seeking a career in nuclear weapons, nor would I be likely to start advertising it openly on the internet if I did. For all I know I may have thoroughly ruled myself out of contention simply by starting this thread. There are of course a whole slew of other more mundane considerations in pursuing such a career besides the ethics, such as whether I have the right physics background, the associated security risk to myself and my family, the pay, alternative employment prospects and so on, but I would prefer these specifics not to be the subject of discussion here. I am more interested in the more general ethical issues around nuclear arms, since I feel there is no point in even considering such a career in the first place until I have made up my mind on exactly how I feel about nuclear weapons.

    So, that is the question I am asking: Are nuclear weapons a good thing? Is it desirable for the UK to maintain a nuclear deterrent, or should we be pursuing nuclear disarmament? Is the MAD doctrine ultimately sound, or is it dangerously naive about the risk of nuclear holocaust? Do nuclear weapons, in short, make the world a safer, or more dangerous, place?

    My current position is, I think, to be cautiously positive about nuclear weapons. Being deeply skeptical of the idea that one can make the world a better place through aggressive warfare, I rather like the idea of a weapon that turns any war into a very obvious and inglorious lose-lose situation for all concerned. But perhaps I am overstating the role of nuclear arms in making war unpalatable for developed countries, or possibly underestimating the likelihood of a government coming to power who would be stupid enough to use them. I would very much like to hear other Orgahs' views on the matter.

  2. #2
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    There is a lot to say for having nukes, I suggest digging up some of Kenneth Waltz's theory's.

    edit: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/waltz1.htm
    Last edited by Fragony; 07-29-2009 at 17:32.

  3. #3
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    So, that is the question I am asking:

    You are asking many questions.

    Are nuclear weapons a good thing?

    How so? What do you mean by good? You'll find someone who can successfully argue both sides of the coin.

    Is it desirable for the UK to maintain a nuclear deterrent,

    Hell yea! A nuclear deterrent increases your security. Nuclear belligerence (i.e. North Korea) is not.

    or should we be pursuing nuclear disarmament?

    No. It's like the firearms debate in the US. Why should the UK (one of the good guys, IMO) reduce its natural security by disarming?

    Is the MAD doctrine ultimately sound, or is it dangerously naive about the risk of nuclear holocaust?

    I don't believe the MAD doctrine is still in existence and was scrapped in the 1990's

    Do nuclear weapons, in short, make the world a safer, or more dangerous, place?

    Yes.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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  4. #4
    Awaiting the Rapture Member rotorgun's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    Speaking as one who lived through my entire youth, and a good part of my adult years under the doctrine of M.A.D., I would say that the concept was a nessecary evil perpetuated by the very nature of the weapons themselves. There were times when I felt that all was hopeless because surely our leaders were hell-bent on destroying the earth. There were a few times that it almost became a reality, in which case we would not be here discussing this in all likelyhood. I had then, and still do today, believe that it is a policy of desperation that leaves no way out once the missles and bombs begin to fly. I was inwardly glad each time a new S.A.L.T. treaty was signed, threby reducing the threat.

    I think that the nuclear powers should set the example and limit their stockpiles to what is only absolutely required for defense, which of course would require the ability to retaliate to an attack. I also think that continued efforts must be made to see that all countries agree to sign the nuclear proliferation treaties, and place severe sanctions on those countries which won't abide. Transparency, candidness, and diplomacy are the keys to reducing the threat of nuclear war.

    Perhaps the spectre of such a disaster will one day be permanently eliminated once we can ever get over our tribalistic desire to murder each other in the name of virtue.
    Rotorgun
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    Do nuclear weapons, in short, make the world a safer, or more dangerous, place?

    Yes.
    No.
    Last edited by Husar; 07-29-2009 at 20:04.


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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    No.
    So they don't make the world a more dangerous place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    First of all; if you do pursue a career that involves nuclear weapons then the security services will read this post.
    It doesn't matter if you mostly post from work, or if you mostly use a proxy to post here; if an IP address has EVER been used by you that links here then this site will be part of a background check.
    And if they do that then you can guarantee a context sensitive search for words that include; nuclear, politics, weapons, violence, revolution, muslim, bomb, depression, will all be searched, and will instantly find this thread.
    You forgot the part about black helicopters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    lol.
    Agreed. I think Viking is one of them.
    Last edited by Vladimir; 07-30-2009 at 14:14.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  7. #7
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    So they don't make the world a more dangerous place?
    I can obviously only answer that once you explained what you meant with 'yes' since given the way the question was formulated that was completely unclear, thus my response.
    This might have been your intention of course.
    Last edited by Husar; 07-30-2009 at 15:08.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I can obviously only answer that once you explained what you meant with 'yes' since given the way the question was formulated that was completely unclear, thus my response.
    This might have been your intention of course.
    It was a compound question and I couldn't resist. The question also assumes that the two are mutually exclusive, which they aren't. Yes a nuclear deterrent works; Yes, weapons that can irradiate the planet for thousands of years and possibly destroy civilization are more dangerous than conventional arms.

    I'm less worried about nuclear weapons, which have such clear long-term consequences, than whatever replaces them. Something like an anti-matter bomb that can rip off the atmosphere but leave no harmful radiation.

    So, you answered the question just to be contrarian?
    Last edited by Vladimir; 07-30-2009 at 21:20.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



  9. #9
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    Quote Originally Posted by PBI View Post
    Or: Should I learn to stop worrying and love the bomb?

    I received an intriguing careers suggestion the other day. As some of you may know, I am currently coming towards the end of my PhD in theoretical physics. Having decided for various reasons not to pursue a career in my current field, I am thus in the process of looking for ideas for what to do once I graduate. In the course of this, it was mentioned to me that one possibility might be working for the nuclear arms establishment.
    I heard Black Mesa is hiring.

    Last edited by Ice; 07-29-2009 at 17:51.



  10. #10
    Guest Aemilius Paulus's Avatar
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    Wink Re: M.A.D. and me

    Quote Originally Posted by Ice View Post
    I heard Black Mesa is hiring.

    I believe the position has already been filled by some Eastern European emigre

    Weak Reference...
    Last edited by Aemilius Paulus; 07-29-2009 at 17:53.

  11. #11
    Oni Member Samurai Waki's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    So, that is the question I am asking: Are nuclear weapons a good thing? Is it desirable for the UK to maintain a nuclear deterrent, or should we be pursuing nuclear disarmament? Is the MAD doctrine ultimately sound, or is it dangerously naive about the risk of nuclear holocaust? Do nuclear weapons, in short, make the world a safer, or more dangerous, place?

    Are nuclear weapons a good thing? No, any weapon that has the power to kill millions of innocent people in one go, should never be considered a "good" thing. However, they have been a credit to keeping some heads cool.

    Is it desirable for the UK to maintain a nuclear deterrent, or should we be pursuing nuclear disarmament? As a stable, Democratic Regime that has been at the forefront of World Politics since time immemoriable, the UK should be allowed to maintain an Arsenal. Countries like Iran, North Korea, or Saudi Arabia, should not.

    Is the MAD doctrine ultimately sound, or is it dangerously naive about the risk of nuclear holocaust? When was the last time we had a full on nuclear war? Even when MAD was in place, few countries, including the more unstable ones (Pakistan, India, and arguably Israel at some points) have been close to unleashing their Nuclear capability, but cool headed diplomacy on both sides of the fence have deterred their use... for the time being. We won't know how much of a deterrent they really are, until either we wipe each other off the face of the planet, or the idea of War becomes outdated.

    Do nuclear weapons, in short, make the world a safer, or more dangerous, place? If you're asking for moral clarity on this, it is really up to you to decide. In some ways, I suppose Nuclear Weapons have made the world a more peaceful place, and in other ways a much, much, much more dangerous place.

  12. #12
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    Quote Originally Posted by PBI View Post
    For all I know I may have thoroughly ruled myself out of contention simply by starting this thread. There are of course a whole slew of other more mundane considerations in pursuing such a career such as the associated security risk to myself and my family, the more general ethical issues around nuclear arms, since I feel there is no point in even considering such a career in the first place until I have made up my mind on exactly how I feel about nuclear weapons.

    So, that is the question I am asking: Are nuclear weapons a good thing? Is it desirable for the UK to maintain a nuclear deterrent, or should we be pursuing nuclear disarmament? Is the MAD doctrine ultimately sound, or is it dangerously naive about the risk of nuclear holocaust? Do nuclear weapons, in short, make the world a safer, or more dangerous, place?
    First of all; if you do pursue a career that involves nuclear weapons then the security services will read this post.
    It doesn't matter if you mostly post from work, or if you mostly use a proxy to post here; if an IP address has EVER been used by you that links here then this site will be part of a background check.
    And if they do that then you can guarantee a context sensitive search for words that include; nuclear, politics, weapons, violence, revolution, muslim, bomb, depression, will all be searched, and will instantly find this thread.
    That is not necessarily a problem, it is not wrong to question and seek support for decisions of moral consequence, they will however make a judgment on how separate your personal life is from your virtual life, such as:
    1) is the email registered at this site used for all other purposes, and does it reveal who you are.
    2) are the other elements of your online existence similarly fire-walled.
    3) do you have lots of questionable contacts in your IM clients or email, i.e. people who you cannot vouch for the character of via long standing relationships.
    4) do you exhibit persistent moral uncertainty or personal vulnerability in ANY part of your online life.
    5) do you seek out emotional attachment online that would indicate psychological problems in real life.
    6) do you exhibit questionable moral character in you search patterns or download registry.
    7) are there unexplained portions of your online life that would indicate a criminal evasion.
    And the above completely ignores the numerous other elements of your personal life they will investigate, but provided they feel thy can answer satisfactorily the questions above then no, your question here may not be deemed a bar to this line of work.

    As to my own feelings on nuclear weapons from my biased british pov:
    In a world where nuclear arms exist it is a good thing for britain to maintain a nuclear deterrent, it has political value as well as the obvious military value.
    It is a good thing that we ARE pursuing disarmament, a world without nukes is a better world, but that does not mean that our actions shouldn't be graduated in response to the actions of other nations.
    MAD doctrine is essentially lunatic, but we hope that other nations beholden to representative government will confine their actions to the clinically sane, and we work to ensure that governments unbound by such restrictions cannot possess a viable second strike.
    We don't know if nuclear weapons make the world a more dangerous place in reality, because we have no idea how devastating conventional warfare might have been in an alternate universe, but in the world we do exist within it is best for britain to maintain a nuclear within the framework of global disarmament.

    i hope that helps.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 07-29-2009 at 23:47.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    In any case, it would be best for your job prospects in the said area not to divulge whether or not you are actually taking employment in this area.
    BLARGH!

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    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    While i wish nuclear weapons had never been invented. i say they are neutral in nature.

    First, the bomb itself isnt evil or good, the person who uses it is.

    As a deterrent they are the one thing that kept russia and america out of war.

    Disarmament is a stupid idealistic crusade that can never happen. Because evil dictators will either lie or pursue programs in secrecy. just my two cents.

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    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    Quote Originally Posted by Centurion1 View Post
    Disarmament is a stupid idealistic crusade that can never happen. Because evil dictators will either lie or pursue programs in secrecy. just my two cents.
    Disarmament can happen in a context where a nuclear country doesn't have more than, say 3 nukes. While 3 nukes could theorically kill millions, imagining both sides had three nukes and both of them used against each other, we would have "limited" casualties, and largely restricted effects to both sides of the war. Now comparing this 6 nukes scenario with UK, USA, Russia, etc. Engaged in a World War where each country has dozens/hundreds of nukes, one could notice the difference of nuclear disarmament.
    BLARGH!

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    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    This is where the whole MAD theory comes into play. If a country is restricted to 3 weapons, what's to say they won't squirrel away 5 more in secret, making an exchange theoretically "winnable". With 1K+ on both sides, there is really no fooling anyone about "winning", so the temptation is removed. It's an all or nothing affair, without the ability to annihilate your opponent, you remove the whole point of the deterrent. This is also why ABM/SDI programs were frowned upon.

    With great power comes great responsibility however. A nuclear power needs to act like a grown up, maintain secure and frank communication with it's adversaries, maintain access and control security within the command structure, and maintain security of the weapons from external threats. This is way more important than the size of the arsenal, in my opinion.
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    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    First of all; if you do pursue a career that involves nuclear weapons then the security services will read this post.
    It doesn't matter if you mostly post from work, or if you mostly use a proxy to post here; if an IP address has EVER been used by you that links here then this site will be part of a background check.
    And if they do that then you can guarantee a context sensitive search for words that include; nuclear, politics, weapons, violence, revolution, muslim, bomb, depression, will allbe searched, and will instantly find this thread.
    The Backroom is inaccessible for anyone but Org members who have been granted access. Hence it should be considered pretty unlikely that they would ever be able read this post?
    Last edited by Viking; 07-29-2009 at 22:19.
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    The Backroom is inaccessible for anyone but Org members who have been granted access. Hence it should be considered pretty unlikely that they would ever be able read this post?
    lol.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  19. #19
    is not a senior Member Meneldil's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    Honestly, if the British state bother more about knowing its citizens ideas through what they wrote on some obscure internet forum rather than offering them a decent education and healthcare system, it's about time to start a revolution and behead all the current leaders.

    For some reason, though I understand the whole 'terrorist threat' western governements have been advocating to further reduce our freedom, I just can't find a reason why the secret service should bother about this topic, or any other one for that matter (in any country other than China and North Korea). People are entitled to have their own opinion, whether they're handworkers or working at the top levels in the military.
    Last edited by Meneldil; 07-30-2009 at 08:42.

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: M.A.D. and me

    well the wouldn't, except if the OP decides to work for Aldermaston on nuclear weapons physics, in which case they will be very interested in all aspects of his life, especially the personal opinions he espouses on public forums.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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