Conseil du Royaume

**Ramses II CP** · 09-26-2009, 01:03

I second edict 1.1 by the way.

**GeneralHankerchief** · 09-26-2009, 01:09

An Aquitanian clerk rises, reading off a scrap of paper.

My lords, Raynaud de Xaintrailles seconds Edicts E1.0 and E1.1 in absentia.

**Cultured Drizzt fan** · 09-26-2009, 01:38

I also second Edict E1.0

**deguerra** · 09-26-2009, 02:10

My Lords, despite the apparent utter uselessness of talking to a bunch of rabid dogs about vegetables, I would have history record my words on this occasion.

To begin yet another war at this junction is akin to madness.

To disguise it in the veil of a most holy Crusade is blasphemy.

To feign interest in the well-being of peasants rather than admitting to the ceaseless, dangerous and insane grabs for land that is implied and encouraged by your words, actions and edicts is insulting to even my intelligence.

To brush aside even the most basic and simple of suggestions and calls for temperance unveils your ignorance.

To think that this war can be easily and speedily won, even won at all, hints towards stupidity.

Mark my words, nobles of France, from the highest to the lowest of you. You will not heed them now, but perhaps you shall remember them one day.

We will be judged by our actions, and one day will surely judge ourselves, in this life or the next.

We will be praised for our good deeds, violent or peaceful, deliberate or unintended, cautious or rash.

We will be punished for our trespasses, our failings, our ignorance and putting our politics before our Lord's wish, or worse, using a twisted warp of His wish to further political aims.

Our high stations in life shall not prevent this. All our arms and armour and men shall not save us. All our lands and peasants and goods shall not keep that judgment at bay.

We will burn for this.

Now if you will excuse me, I shall return to Dijon, so that I may be excused from being witness to any more.

**Cultured Drizzt fan** · 09-26-2009, 03:37

A bit dramatic, but he has a point buried somewhere in there. If we choose to use our good grace with the pope to further such a petty land grab we may find some.... problems facing us in the future. No reason to risk it in my opinion, just declare a normal little war and grab what we want. All much more simple then dragging Our Lord into this.

Yvon nods his head slowly

yes, let us save the crusading for that which deserves it, and keep our own politics out of it.

**ULC** · 09-26-2009, 05:54

I agree - leave the crusade for when it is truly needed. A Crusade is a representation of the struggle for our faith, and should not be sullied by the reclamations of the Royaume, none of which has anything to do with God, and everything to do with imaginary borders we draw upon the land that the Lord has granted us.

God judges us upon what each of us has done in life - our actions, our thoughts, our intentions. Veil it in whatever you wish, God knows what is in your heart, and he knows what is in mine. I will not, nay, I refuse to join a crusade upon the English - I will not slay an Englishman falsely in the name of God.

I second Edicts E1.0 and E1.1!

I also ask my Duc, Prince Louis, if he would allow me a single company of men to march either upon Angers or Pamplona, to prove my worth as a commander of men and soldier of the Royaume, and to prove my Oath has meaning.

**AussieGiant** · 09-26-2009, 08:08

Alain smiles quickly and nods at the recent statements.

**Ituralde** · 09-26-2009, 08:51

I strongly oppose Edicts E1.1 and 1.2. I don't see how you can criticize the opportunism of this venture while at the same time passing legislation that makes this clear for all to see. Is this Emergency Session about how best to rid the English of their land or is this Emergency Session about how to dispose of their heretic ruler?

It seems to be the former is the case and if that is truly your intention then I will have no part of it. God and the Pope have given us an opportunity to show our faith to the whole of Christendom and you slander it for personal gains. How can you even propose reconquering a settlement like Valencia that was just traded to the English one season ago. What picture will this give the world about the word of a Frenchman? That they will give you one thing now and take it back by force immediately thereafter? This is shameful!

I second E1.3 as it's the only one that deals with the issues we must face during this Session. I furthermore propose

Edict E1.4:
No land will be taken from the English unless it is needed to defeat King William. (i.e. conquering London to get him to fight). Any settlement taken in this manner will be offered in trade during the following peace negotiations.

**OverKnight** · 09-26-2009, 08:51

Reeves posts a list of the Legislation.

Please be aware my lords that the numbering on the Edicts has been standardized, with Edicts starting at one not zero.

**ULC** · 09-26-2009, 09:05

So de Montpierre, this is not about reclaiming lost lands of the Royaume? Do I have it on record that you said we would use London as leverage after the death of Duke William? Why on earth, if you are out on the redemption of the poor English people, looking for leverage in bargaining? What are you thinking of gaining good monsieur?

I would accept this idea of a "Crusade" to London, if - no Englishman who was not a heretic is killed, and London is left to the English to reclaim once William is dead.

**OverKnight** · 09-26-2009, 09:34

Hugues reenters the Conseil.

So it seems some of our motives are now laid clear. There are some who wish to take up a Crusade to remove a King who has offended the Church, and there are some who wish to make war upon a vulnerable foe.

An immediate war will endanger the Nobles of Bretagne who remain in England. As Seneschal I ask for a delay in the war until they have safely returned to our lands, two seasons.

I second Edicts 1.3 and 1.4. I do not fully agree with 1.4, but it deserves a vote.

I also propose:

Edict E1.5: Since the entire Kingdom will bear the burden of this war and the German one, no House will recieve more than one province from any lands taken from the English.

The entire Kingdom, whether on the campaign or not, will contribute to this new war. Whether by taking up the Cross, by conquering the English, by holding off the Germans, or by contributing florins or men. As a collective effort, no one House should benefit too much from the sacrifices of all of them.

I already have a war to fight. Many of the nobles in the Conseil will not be able to fight against the English due to our continuing war against the Germans. Now, the Prince and the King have the luxury of engaging the Germans in a battle or two and then withdrawing to new pursuits, but for many of us, the war with the Empire is at our gates. If we take the Cross or fight in the west, our homes will be lost, and the Kingdom laid bare to the Germans.

It is now a war of neccessity rather than a war of choice, no matter how it began. I cannot help but remember the clarion calls of honor, God, conquest and glory that rang out when the King chose to war on the Germans. Now, as our King abandons that fight to move to another, the same calls ring out again. Some of the Nobles who swore to fight the Germans now move on as well to England. A familiar pattern, one I hope does not repeat again.

Wars of aggression, no matter the righteousness of their origin, start when we want them to, but rarely end in such a fashion. Remember that my King, my Dauphin and my fellow Nobles.

**Ituralde** · 09-26-2009, 10:49

I apologize if the content of my Edict is not completely clear. But like our Seneshal points out to end wars can be far more difficult than to start wars. That's why my Edict already contains a passage where we would give the English back their capital in return for peace during the following peace negotiations. The only leverage I desire is to convince the English that peace is in their best interest.
I hope this makes the intentions of my Edict clear. I am no lawyer so I don't know how to put it better, but I'm open to suggestions.

**econ21** · 09-26-2009, 10:56

My Lords, this display of collective hand wringing ventures on the absurd.

It is the settled will of all of us that we reclaim our lands from the English, is it not? Some of us have endeavoured to secure this by peaceful means, even going so far as proposing an alliance to achieve that. But, no, offering friendship with the English was going too far. The possibility of using war to reclaim what was rightfully ours was always there and never rejected by any one of you.

It is the settled will of all of us that we ally with Scotland, but now that that nation is being overrun by the English and the English have been excommunicated by the Pope, that sympathy is forgotten. We are members of a Catholic church. That church has rules. To wantonly kill fellow Christians in an war of aggression is a crime against God. The English were warned. They knew the consequences, but they persevered. If Scotland falls, where next will they turn? It takes little imagination to fathom. Obeying the will of the Holy Father is not a war of aggression - it is obedience, duty, piety.

In the east, we were attacked. We defended ourselves vigorously. A little too vigorously for the Pope and so now we must halt there. We will not abandon that frontier, nor lose homes if we turn against the outcast. The skill of our generals, the fortitude of our men have been proven season after season. Our King has demonstrated how much he can achieve with so little. As has our Dauphin and indeed our Seneschal. I am firm in my conviction that we can join a crusade while defending the east. Indeed, those opposing the English crusade seem of like mind, since they instead propose a crusade on the Moors.

It is simple. The Pope has excommunicated the English for their aggression against the Scots. If we do not march on them, our brother Catholics will. Do we abandon our duty and our lost lands? Our goal is clear and the King has stated it with no equivocation. We must petition the Pope for a crusade on England. All that remains is implementation and I humbly suggest that we trust our Seneschal with that responsibility, by passing Edict 1.3.

[i]Hermant bows before the Conseil and respectfully leaves the chamber. OOC: not a walkout, just got stuff to do.]

**AussieGiant** · 09-26-2009, 14:56

There is a cracking sound, Alain speaks.

"Ze Pope 'as called for no Crusade.

'e 'as simply excommunicated ze English, zere is a difference my lords!!

We could 'ave asked for a crusade against ze Muslims at any time in ze last decade or two but we did not, likewise no ozer Cazolic kingdom or ze Pope 'imself 'as either.

If ze Pope 'imself wishes to take ze matter fuzer zen we should let 'im decide if zere is to be a crusade against ze English.

So I say again, if we are to be vaguely honourable and chivalrous we should make simple war against ze English for our lands on the continent. We should not parley ze Pope's displeasure for our own secular aims. If a crusade is to be called zen let ze Pope decide, if at all."

**Cultured Drizzt fan** · 09-26-2009, 15:11

Originally Posted by Ituralde

I strongly oppose Edicts E1.1 and 1.2. I don't see how you can criticize the opportunism of this venture while at the same time passing legislation that makes this clear for all to see. Is this Emergency Session about how best to rid the English of their land or is this Emergency Session about how to dispose of their heretic ruler?

It seems to be the former is the case and if that is truly your intention then I will have no part of it. God and the Pope have given us an opportunity to show our faith to the whole of Christendom and you slander it for personal gains. How can you even propose reconquering a settlement like Valencia that was just traded to the English one season ago. What picture will this give the world about the word of a Frenchman? That they will give you one thing now and take it back by force immediately thereafter? This is shameful!

I second E1.3 as it's the only one that deals with the issues we must face during this Session. I furthermore propose

Edict E1.4:
No land will be taken from the English unless it is needed to defeat King William. (i.e. conquering London to get him to fight). Any settlement taken in this manner will be offered in trade during the following peace negotiations.

We are not criticizing the opportunism of this venture. We are criticizing the fact you all seem to think this is some glorious holy war to set the english free. And if you believe that you are total FOOL!
Yvon gets extremely angry as he says this, rage evident on his face

Opportunism is exactly what this is! Do not slander the Lords name by assuming that this is what he wants us to do. This is what WE want to do! We can not call a holy crusade on a nation that has simply lost the popes favor, that is not a holy war! That is hypocrisy plain and simple! Need I remind you all how we gained the popes favor? WE BOUGHT IT! If you can buy a mans favor then you can never assume his will and Gods are as one!

This war is to take back what belongs to us. That is what it is, and to claim differently is idiocy. Need I remind you that the trade of Valencia is something many were against?

What this is is not a holy war, it is a fleeting chance to take back everything we had given up to these English dogs. If you want no part of that fine, take no part in it. But I doubt the English are going to see the difference between "freeing" them of there heathen king, and taking there land by force.

**Ramses II CP** · 09-26-2009, 15:12

Edict 1.5 is a direct challenge to the authority of the King to distribute lands as he sees fit. It is extremely distasteful for anyone to propose such nonsense.

In addition, as Edict 1.3 has not been altered I must amend my own edict to counter the nonsense:

Edict 1.1a War shall be declared upon the Kingdom of England immediately. All provinces conquered in this war shall be considered ratified at the time of conquest.

Provision 6a (The Hermant Provision) Where this edict contradicts others that are passed, this edict takes precedence, especially over other edicts that claim they take precendence.

Now, let's stop acting like a bunch of bloody ninnies concentrated on our own vapid political machinations. I will join Gaetan de Rethel in refusing to take up the cross for merely territorial reasons, and I will also point out that no one has asked for a Moorish crusade in this emergency session! You embarass yourselves dragging out that old cow from decades ago. Yes, it is a future ambition to aid our allies in Iberia, but it is not on the table today as far as I am aware.

Furthermore it is not petty to reclaim our stolen lands from my father's former, traitorous vassal, William. Bordeaux is ours! Valencia was ours, conquered at great cost by my men, and paid for with no small quantity of my own blood! Pamplona certainly cannot be left to the English, although quite honestly I think the Spanish might need it more than we do.

Have any of you idiots actually spoken to the men from Caernarvon? I've sent Sir de Rochefort, the nominal commander there, a message and am awaiting a reply. Until we hear from him let's stop acting hysterical about the danger they're in. I think we can be fairly confident he'd laugh at you girls throwing your hands up and delaying our whole nation's plans on his account.

Now, Valencia currently stands with no garrison. We will be going to war with England, do any doubt it? If we delay the English will garrison Valencia and good Frenchmen will die to retake it.

Bordeaux currently stands with only one company of men inside. Bordeaux is a part of FRANCE! If we delay more men will be trained, and more Frenchmen will die to take it.

Anger, also a part of France, is lightly garrisoned as well, and could be taken in short order. If we delay.... well, you know the bloody story.

I am sometimes acclaimed the greatest general in France. This is my strategic advice: Declare war instantly, drive the English out of France, and go on crusade whenever you wish subsequently, then let the King distribute the lands afterward as is his right. If you're worried about my House getting too powerful man up and admit it, then petition the King openly for lands that Aquitaine will conquer without trying to tie the King's hands. Or you could stop being a pansy about it and just go out and conquer your own bloody lands. Trying to politic this war into some mad kind of fair, sweet, even handed affair is purely crazy.

French lands stand under occupation! Let's free our people FIRST, and punish the Pope's enemy SECOND, and go grasping after each other's hard won lands THIRD. Or perhaps not at all that last, hey?

The look of disgust on Louis' face is palpable.

**KnightnDay** · 09-26-2009, 15:28

Crusade or no, Angers and Bordeaux should be set free and now is the time. I do not, as one put it, feign interest in the well being of peasants. Their suffering under English rule is true, and their excommunication only furthers their anguish. If any man here questions my integrity on the matter, let him accuse me directly, and I will have satisfaction. On my honor, I believe we have every reason to free our brothers and sisters under the English yoke in Angers and Bordeaux.

**ULC** · 09-26-2009, 19:51

Although I do care for those laboring under English rule, Thomas, a point in which I will have to disagree with you, I do agree that the Royuame should be liberated first. I think this Council is laboring under some false perception of what is going on in English lands, but, since you are all educated men, this cannot be, can it?

Surely you would all know that excommunication is simply a proclamation? Giving voice to what has already happened? And that the intent with any excommunication is to force the offender to repent? That it is a medicinal penalty, not a vindictive one? That those excommunicated are still christian?

Surely you all realize that the Pope excommunicated William and his generals - not the English as a whole, not all of Albion? That to excommunicate the English people, it requires an Interdict? And that even under an Interdict, it is medicinal, a way to have those ousted from the sacrament to repent? That those under the Interdict are still christian?

But, obviously those asking for a Crusade must know of this, since they have such boundless knowledge of God and the Pope's will. They must know that when they kill the English in London or upon the field, that they kill fellow christian men in the name of God.

Surely I cannot be mistaken, and those calling for a crusade are ignorant of both the actions taken by the Pope, and the circumstances in lands under English rule, can I?

**woad&fangs** · 09-26-2009, 20:28

Bertin enters the Conseil. He is visibly shaken by some recent event.

I second edict 1.4.

After taking several long gulps of wine to calm his nerves Bertin rises again.

I second edict 1.5..

**Ituralde** · 09-26-2009, 21:13

It seems the Nobles of France have spoken. This is nothing but an opportunity to take English land without fear of the Pope interfering. It saddens me to hear this, I only hope that the voted legislation will show a different picture.

To the righteousness of a Crusade against the English, this would be entirely up to the Pope, who despite different opinions voiced here is the direct representative of God on earth! So I am not concerned about legal word-trading. If God wills it the Pope will let us know, if not then there is still time for William to repent while you ravish his lands.

**Cultured Drizzt fan** · 09-26-2009, 21:58

Yvon breaths deeply his face taking on a bored expression once again

Yes, yes, In Nomine Dei Patri. Good luck with that.

I am finding it more and more difficult to take part in this. Many of you seem so full of self-righteousness you can not see the course you are taking. May god save you all.

Yvon turns and leaves the council chamber

**OverKnight** · 09-27-2009, 02:53

Hugues turns to the King.

Your Majesty, Nobles of the Realm. Prince Louis is in violation of Edict 2.8. The punishment is the immediate disbanding of the offending army.

Since the Prince has already violated the truce and will most likely, judging by his words, declare his own private war whatever the decision of the Conseil, I have little choice but to enforce the Edict.

**GeneralHankerchief** · 09-27-2009, 02:57

An Aquitanian clerk rises immediately.

Seneschal, has the disbandment already taken place?

**AussieGiant** · 09-27-2009, 03:55

Leaning forward Alain mouths.

on a shovel, 'ow about zat!!"

**Cecil XIX** · 09-27-2009, 04:05

Having been sitting passively observing up to this point, Duc Raymond suddenly grabs parchment and quill and starts scribbling furiously.

**GeneralHankerchief** · 09-27-2009, 04:13

The Aquitanian clerk is handed a piece of paper. After skimming over it, he rises again to speak.

I have been informed that the Dauphin's army is currently intact, unless the Seneschal has decided to do so without providing the updated maps to us all. In light of new developments, as well as the very originator of the Edict that the Duc of Lorraine seems so determined to uphold no matter what openly discussing possible outcomes of a war with England, I believe that this is one of the times in which we can set aside an Edict in the name of common sense.

However, since the Seneschal is clearly not one of these people and will not wait for the will of the Conseil and its opinion on war with England, we are faced with one of our most potent armies disappearing overnight. Luckily, however, we do have the very same Seneschal to thank for allowing us to rectify this situation by calling for an Emergency Session. Therefore, in the name of Raynaud de Xaintrailles, I propose the following:

Edict E1.6: Should war be declared with England in this session, Edict 2.8 is hereby considered null and void and Prince Louis's army near Bordeaux is not to be disbanded in violation of the aforementioned Edict.

**ULC** · 09-27-2009, 04:52

I second Edict E1.6!

**Cultured Drizzt fan** · 09-27-2009, 12:30

A messanger from Marseilles Rises,

And I on the behalf of my lord, second Edict E1.6

**Marcus Agrippa** · 09-27-2009, 19:16

I feel I should be the voice of chivalry for this counsel.
I believe we can wage a war with consience if we do it with the right objectives.

1. We only fight to weaken England and make France whole.
2. We create a stable alliance with Scotland by liberating Edinburgh so the Engilsh won't conquest against us as they have two rivals.
3. No unarmed civilians are killed only soldiers.
4. We Take london to have a prise worth selling for peace as they won't accept anything else.

I propose the following Edict E1.7: Upon hostilities with England turning to war this session the following cities become our objective: Bordaeux, Angers, London for negotiation for peace will England and Edinburgh to form an alliance with Scotland and weaken England. All should be occupied with out sacking or harm to the locals towns people.

If the senechal were to provid some forces to the coast Myself and de Rochfort could take london if no-one else was better able or willing as we are returning south of london.
I have no wish for glory my lords, but I believe a war would otherwise be abused, long and drain France. As the German campaign continues to.

**Ramses II CP** · 09-27-2009, 19:45

Louis laughs,

Truly this is what we have come to, this band of brothers, this nobility of France. Bickering foolishly over legalities and lands not yet captured while we should be united in reclaiming our nation, making whole our people once more. It disgusts me.

Seneschal de Champagne you gave me your solemn word that you would support me in exchange for giving you my support in your campaign for Seneschal. That support has been absent, as Mon Roi warned me it likely would. This is certainly not support. If you attempt to disband my army in the face of our enemies, and I ask again if any doubt that we will be at war with England, then I cannot help but take that as a declaration of war against my House for it would leave us utterly defenseless and surrounded by English territory.

You cannot reasonably declare that you do this on account of the King's edict when the King himself does not wish it enforced. You are afraid of something. Afraid of your future King's own House? Afraid of war with England? I know not which, but if you act rashly to weaken France in the face of her enemies there will be a reckoning.

So stop cowering. Declare your true intent now and have done with it. We can settle it personally without placing France herself at risk by destroying one of her armies. If you so despise me, or so fear England, then let us duel until you are satisfied and relent.

What say you? I insist that you answer before the Emergency session ends or matters will grow worse.

(OOC: A couple of things to consider/discuss in the OOC thread perhaps:

1. What happens if the Seneschal is killed during the emergency session?

2. What happens if a civil war begins during the emergency session, in particular with respect to the disbandment edict?

3. Can the King declare himself Seneschal during an emergency session?)

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