Multiple bridge battle defeat

[desdichado]

Been a while since I've posted but I've recently started playing M2TW. Played a bit of RTW and hated it but still consider original MTW best game I’ve ever played. Hundreds of hours I spent with that game.

My current problem relates to bridge battles and it has caused me to quit my current interesting Byz campaign in disgust. Playing Vanilla Mod on Hard/Hard, I was besieging Venice, the last Venetian city and twice I lost a bridge battle with horrific losses.

I use a HA heavy army but also a good mix of spearmen & heavy infantry + 4 units of treb archers. My troops all had very good experience with weapon & armour upgrades.

What happened is I put my infantry on to the bridge to block the enemy and provide a tempting target for all my archers. The entire Venetian army surged across the bridge and simply pushed all my troops off the bridge and then spilled out causing a big ugly melee which was never going to go my way against their heavier armour.

What I suspect is that Cav has been overpowered in their ability to push back enemy formations even once they have effectively stopped their charge. I’d seen the same effect in sieges against the Mongols but put that down to their insane experience. Coming from MTW bridge battles never went down like this.

I’m not wanting bridge battles that are a massacre for the AI like in MTW but having 5 units of heavy infantry unable to hold a bridge for even a minute against a surging congolmerate of infantry/cav is just ridiculous. Theres no way in reality that many troops could even fit in such a small area let alone fight effectively.

I’ve done some searching but everybody seems to find bridge battles are still effective vs the AI so perhaps I’m doing something wrong.

I was annoyed as I had just come back from a 30,000 florin deficit and lost my only two remaining full stacks chick full of all my experienced troops – troops I was relying on to retake Asia Minor from the Mongols. I hadn’t realized I could block land bridges from Asia Minor with fleets so I lost a lot of soldiers earlier on fighting off seemingly endless Jihad armies from the Islamic nations but in all it was an interesting campaign.

Any help or advice is much appreciated. Funnily enough I never liked the Byz in MTW but found them quite interesting in M2TW.

[Akka]

What I suspect is that Cav has been overpowered in their ability to push back enemy formations even once they have effectively stopped their charge.

No.
Actually, MTW2 is notable in that cav is especially BAD at pushing units. You would think that horses could push men much more effectively than what is shown in the game.

What happened is not cav, but simply pressure. When there is lots of men on both sides of a mélée, the larger group tends to push the smaller. The situation you describe seems to be relatively few men - your "bait" infantry - against large numbers - the Venetians.
When the whole Venetian army charge, what happens feels somehow logical : their large number and mass push your lines.

Additionnally, I tend to notice that, under some somehow undefined circumstances (usually when there is lots of troops moving at the same time in the same place), movement seems to quicken a lot, with units running far faster than usual. I'm not sure how it happens (perhaps some mechanics to prevent unit for stockpiling one on top of another) but the added speed may add to their pushing power.

[_Tristan_]

Bridge battles should mostly be fought if you're defending...

If you are on the offensive like it seems here, they are much harder as you have to either lure the enemy to your side or cross and bring the fight to their side.

The best way to defend in a bridge battle is to create a "pocket" where the AI can disgorge its troops but cannot deploy effectively.

This is done by placing your infantry (spears or swords) in a U-shape around the base of the bridge on your side.
Placing your archers on both sides of that U so that they can shoot on the massed enemy on the bridge.

Keeping your cav at the back to reinforce any breach in the U

[Vladimir]

True. The pocket formation is the most effective for bridge battles. Try to arrange your troops where you can sneak a small unit behind the enemy once the bulk of their forces leave the bridge. Flanking is still an important part of bridge battles.

[desdichado]

Thanks for the replies guys - I was actually on the defensive when the besiged force sallied forth.

Akka - you are correct. I started a new campaign and in a few siege battles I threw all my men into the breach. Was interesting as I could actually watch the ebb and flow as the enemies initial charge was slowed, stopped and then reversed as I brought more men into the fray.

I think your point about the extra movement is also valid as the cav on both sides seem to be moving quite oddly in these big all in brawls. Still not sure what to make of them as they are hardly tactically interesting but actually quite fun to watch now I know to throw everybody into the mix. Although I did have time to pull some men from one flank to the other to shore up a hole that was forming which was a pleasing result.

Coming from MTW I held my troops in reserve and used them to plug gaps when the line got thinned. That’s what was getting me killed in M2TW.

I still think bridge battles are a bit silly but again I think I am better off to let the enemy spill out off the bridge and trap them as per suggestions above – this should negate their “push” effect I hope.

Thanks for the advice - I've started a new campaign but I may go back to an earlier save in the previous campaign to try a what if scenario.

Cheers

[gardibolt]

With the passive AI, attacking on a bridge is pretty simple. You just put crossbowmen in the middle of the bridge and annihilate the AI's troops on the far end, as they sit there and take it. Eventually you cut them down small enough that by the time you run out of arrows and bolts, even a small infantry or cavalry can rout them.

[FactionHeir]

What the other posters said. In a bridge battle in RTW/M2TW, never just place your units right at the bridge exit as that will get them killed within seconds, regardless if against infantry or cavalry.

Let the enemy spill out a bit, in fact, creating a large and wide pocket rather than a narrow one around the bridge exit is an even better idea as the enemy exhausts very quickly in a large mass all running like headless chicken towards you. This also lets you plug holes more effectively and give you the advantage of using your archers to a greater effect without causing too many FF casualties. In fact, letting the enemy spill out lets you double flank them with your cavalry to devastating effect on enemy morale.

As usual, don't forget flaming arrows.

Just as an aside, back when I played MTW I noticed that if you have a unit somewhere, it cannot be pushed away at all without being annihilated. This has since been changed with RTW and thus M2TW (which builds on RTW's engine) in that pushing is very much possible but will have a detrimental effect on your individual unit cohesion and stamina. Also, units at the front end of the push will often die even without attack anims simply due to the huge mass of it all - think of suffocating.

[Ashen]

Don't forget that Cavalry get an initial charge bonus. After that, if they're stuck in stand up combat, they're not likely to move forwards in any sense unless they're up against peasants or (some) archers. Personally I like getting a few cheap hard hitting but expandable units accross first - Pilgrims for example, as Sicily I managed to get a crusade declared against Venice - to soften them up first, put their formation out a bit, then come in behind with swords/dismounted knights for the final push.

Seige weapons would also be your friend here I think.

[FactionHeir]

Yeah, ballistae and ribaults work wonders in bridge battles.

[cambovenzi]

i have to remember that U shaped deal, and siege weapons.
my bridge battles are generally sloppy, as i like open field battles better.(and am more used to them)

[Monsieur Alphonse]

The combination of your army deployed in an U shape and of a catapult deployed behind your units is very deadly. Fire ammo from the catapult will kill a lot of enemies and will cause an instant route of the rest of them.

[FactionHeir]

Disagree on catapult. Its so unpredictable in its firing that you will likely incinerate a good portion of your own army

Treb is even a bit more accurate in that regard.

[Monsieur Alphonse]

If you place the catapult directly behind your army so it can fire the length of the bridge, you will see mayhem. Your own units are save and since the ammo is flying lower then that of a trebuchet the massacre is bigger. Aim at the bridge and have fun.

[Prussian to the Iron]

As others have said, the best thing you can do is make a 'U-shaped' formation of your infantry at your end of the bridge. I reccomend having any axe-men on the flanks of the formation, spearmen on the curves, and any swordsmen in the middle of it. Any Archers and non-skirmisher units should be positioned level with the bridge on the flanks, so that they can fire on the enemy as they come in. Ballistae and catapults can annhilate an enemy like this, but remember that trebuchets will not work very well against a bridge.

If you are attacking a bridge, I think the best way is to use the same formation, only use a skirmisher unit or cavalry as bait. Bring a skirmisher unit up to the enemy, pepper them a bit, then retreat when they give chase. They'll go right int your little trap, and Ballistae firing forward onto a bridge covered with enemies? slaughter.

[Sebastian Seth]

I tested this with 4 papal guards and holy cross versus 5 spearman and 15 peasants. Altought I had tight line on the bridge end and peasants whre going down and panicing. They still pushed my units back a lot. I looked ver closely and saw my troops actually backing up step by step.

Another thing was that the units arent keeping thight line as they used to but spreading wide when brawling starts.

[kazzan]

Yeah, the shear mass of the peasants and the spearmen drow your units back... Its quite realistic really, once you think about it. Hundreds of peasants charging at a spear wall will eventually push it back... I usually have archers at the flanks and then heavy infantry at the bridge, the archers will mow down much of the enemy while my infantry will slay the others, in kingdom, Halbruder works wonders...