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Thread: Go forth and multiply

  1. #1
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Go forth and multiply

    (Note: This is a thread seeking advice on whether to have children. You'll probably want to skip it unless that interests you.)

    My wife and I both turned 31 within the last few weeks. We've been together since we were 21 and we've been married since we were 26. We have talked about having children many times over the years. Our conclusions have always been the same: we're pretty sure we want a single child (just one) eventually, but we know we don't want it now. Something about 31 has made this conversation warp a bit this time around. My wife has numerous medical concerns, both for the baby and herself, that make her believe that she should not have a baby after age 35. I do not disagree with this, but 31 is a lot closer to 35 than 26 was. Uncomfortably closer, for both of us.

    The problem is that our opinions haven't changed. Neither of us want a child right now, we know that for sure. We are both lawyers, we both work full-time, and we are simply having a lot of fun in life right now. With two incomes, we have a very decent lifestyle and are both upwardly mobile within our own careers as well. We enjoy our freedom, both physically and financially, and we are totally content with each others' company.

    A child seems very threatening to our lifestyle. We will lose our freedom almost completely for several years, and it will be reduced from its current level even after the child is no longer an infant. We will certainly be able to afford the child, but there's no question it will result in a significant impact on our finances. We simply won't be able to spend like we do now, take the types of vacations we want, and do other frivolous things whenever we feel like it. In addition, we will rarely ever be alone again. We are best friends in addition to spouses, and we enjoy spending a lot of time alone.

    Thus, we are both very concerned that a child will damage a lot of the aspects about our lives that we value very highly. At the same time, there are many reasons to have a child. I have a great relationship with my parents and I would love to be able to share that kind of life with a child of my own. Both my wife and I find the prospect of teaching a child about the world and watching them grow up to be somewhat thrilling. We think that raising a child together and seeing him/her grow into a successful adult would add another layer of bonding to our already close connection. We both want to share things that we enjoyed as children with a child of our own: holidays, camping, bedtime stories, etc. Society as a whole also seems to proclaim that having children is a great and rewarding thing and that it brings with it joy that we’d have to be fools to miss out on.

    My wife has her own particular concerns about children. She does not think her parents have ever been happy since she was born, and while she knows they love her, she's not sure they love each other. She is very much afraid of losing her identity; she is a smart, capable and ambitious attorney with a strong career and hobbies that she enjoys. She definitely does not want to give that up to raise a child, but she constantly sees women around her changing from being 'Emily' or 'Susan' into 'Mom' or 'Mother.' She told me that a great number of her female work colleagues are consumed by maternal guilt and feel horrible if they do anything for themselves or put the baby down for even a minute to do something as innocuous as take a shower. She is also greatly concerned about the physical changes it will have on her body. She spent a lot of her life feeling unattractive and uncomfortable with her body. That is no longer the case. She is, to be blunt, thin, attractive, in great shape, and fashion-conscious. Feeling good about her appearance has done wonders for her self-esteem. The prospect of having a lot of that permanently altered by the physical process of pregnancy and childbirth is understandably frightening to her.

    In addition, both of us have observed alarming changes in some of our friends when they have children. Honestly, most of them become boring and annoying and cannot talk about anything in life other than their kids. We have drifted away from several couples we used to be friends with because after they had a child, spending time with them became uncomfortable because the only thing they could talk about was something we can’t relate to. While if we had a child, our childfree friends would surely think the same of us, we don’t want to be that way all of the time. We have some friends that we would like to continue seeing, even if we have kids and they don’t, or if our kids are different ages.

    So, what this all comes down to is that we don't know whether we want to have children or not. The clock is ticking away on us, and there simply isn’t enough time left to fit in all the things we want to do in life before age 35. Thus, we are now faced with deciding whether to choose a child over our own lives. We are very happy with our lives at the moment and we are afraid of losing that. We hear and read a great deal that indicates that having a child can be extremely rewarding, but we also read things that say that most people are less happy after they have children. We are attracted by the idea of creating a new person and introducing them to this world, but we don’t want to lose our freedom, our traveling, our lifestyles, and especially ourselves.

    I would appreciate advice and perspective from anyone who has gone through this process themselves; whether you chose to have children or chose not to. What decision did you make, why, and how happy are you now in comparison to how you were before? Also if you chose to have children, how old were you?
    Last edited by TinCow; 08-31-2009 at 20:34.


  2. #2
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    (Note: This is a thread seeking advice on whether to have children. You'll probably want to skip it unless that interests you.)
    Your post is very rational and sensible. Forget all about it. Because both of you want a kid, right? So just have the kid and deal with all the rest later on. Sure, it may 'cramp' your lifestyle, but not having it will cramp the rest of your life.

    Life is cup, should not remain undrunk.
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  3. #3
    Chieftain of the Pudding Race Member Evil_Maniac From Mars's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Your future can be controlled by your children, or by someone else's children. Your choice.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    As a person who hadn’t children of his own (as far as I know as I speak to a lawyer) but now I have a parental duty as my wife’s daughter being a teenage pregnant…

    I have to say it wasn’t a choice at first, not to have children. I got divorced then I did a lot of things. No child means I went to a lot of countries, did some dangerous jobs, risked my life few times and almost lost the gamble…
    It was great: the wind of Bosnia, Sarajevo when sun rises, the dolphins in the Red sea, the mud and the rain in Zaire, the snow in Russia and others things. That is for the no-child option.
    I was free, enjoyed it.

    Now, when I put my grand-daughter to bed, when I dry her tears, when a little mouth is quietly sucking her dummy, I know why I did all what I did.
    When her little arms are around my neck, when her small breath calm down and she goes to sleep, sure to be protected, sure that nobody will come to arm her, I find the reasons why I joined the Army long time ago.
    I can’t describe the feeling to have her, to see her moving, thinking, being a human in motion. Her cheekiness, the fact she know she is ruling over me, and the love I have for her…

    So, when walking from work, from a usual job, not a job where I save the victims of cataclysms (human made or nature made) I wonder when I was happy.
    Well, in both.
    When I had the adrenalin rush, when I saved lives, when I run under shells and bullets I was.
    When I cover her small body with her blanket, when I give her the good night kiss, I am happy.

    It is not or.. or..
    It is instead. There is no unique answer.
    Our future is in (mostly) in our hands. We can be happy with or without children…

    Don’t be scared. It is just another life where priorities are different, where entertainment is different, where all is different.
    Now, I heard a lot of colleagues who refer to the life before kids as the Golden Age, ignoring the fact that they didn’t do a lot of things at that time.
    They idealised these moments so spoil the moment they live now.
    I remember one of my friends driving me to the airport for an overseas mission. He envied me. But the night before, when I saw him with his young baby I was crying of jealousy.

    For me, to have kids or not was never a choice. Life did it.
    So, you want a kid, just do it. Yes, it will change your life but nobody can tell you if it will be for the best or the worst.

    In life there are no if no but. What if I have chosen the Foreign Legion? What if I didn’t divorce? What if…
    Whatever the choice you will do, you will never be able to be sure it was the right one.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Well, I don't have any experience with having children. But I think all your concerns are very valid, and it seems like the health concern with age thing is what's putting the pressure on. How viable a choice is adoption instead of having your own child? You could decide to adopt if you ever reach the point where you really want kids.

  6. #6
    Involuntary Gaesatae Member The Celtic Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Personally, I have decided not to have a kid. I understand the appeal that they can give, and I like kids, but babies are a pain in the ass, they cost too much and I want to live my life wholly for myself. You will forever be giving up the life you live now if you have a baby; it will change dramatically, and I would argue for the worse. Mostly because you will likely join the child-worshipping zombies you speak of.

    (As an added bonus for not having a baby, it's better for the environment.)

    If you are not 100% sure that you do want a baby, I would strongly advice against having one, because having a baby is not something you should take lightly; they don't call it a lifetime job for nothing. If you do pass the age of 36 and then decide you want one, you can adopt a kid instead, but I want to stress how important it is for you to be sure about it first; both for your own sake, and for the baby's. Anything else would be irresponsible.

  7. #7
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    I have also decided against children. I'm a fairly selfish person with my time, I understand what sacrifices are necessary to raise a child properly, and I don't think I am willing to do it. Better to not have any kids than to raise them half-*****. But that's just me.

    Your take on what happens to people with kids is pretty accurate. As I've gotten older, and friends have given in to their reproductive urges, I've seen how they change, and while I understand the need, it's not good. Babies have a way of turning fully functioning adults into babbling fools. Groups of friends will quickly split into the child-laden vs the childless.

    Don't wait too long if you are sure you want a child though. You don't want to fight off your teenage daughter's suitors or try to control your hooligan son when you are pushing towards 60.
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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    I love kids, I want to have tons of them but really not at the moment. Being single makes the decision easier. Maybe when I am 40.

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    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by drone View Post
    Babies have a way of turning fully functioning adults into babbling fools.
    Those people are mostly fools to begin with. Give them a cat or a dog and they will drool over that.

    'Oh look, Fifi wants you to get up so she can sit in her favourite chair. Yes, she knows we're talking about her. Don't you, Fifi?'



    Most of my friends had children before me, some started only recently. I'd say one in five suffered from the babbling syndrome and was quickly ostracised, the others are still as close as ever.
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    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    I think it comes down to the fundamental question of whether you want to make the necessary changes to your lifestyles in order to experience all that comes with raising a child. I'm not even going to attempt to give you advice, as you're a successful, worldly 31-year-old lawyer and I'm a 19-year-old college student who is currently attempting to scrounge up enough money to buy a cheeseburger. However, I do have an anecdote:

    This summer, I worked two jobs. One of them was the night shift in a tollbooth. Eight hours a day, five days a week. Not too bad, but not the ideal way someone my age wants to spend a summer. But for three weeks, I doubled up, returning to a 5-hour-a-day camp for three weeks. This meant I was working thirteen hours a day, and I very quickly realized that I would need to empty my reserves in order to survive the three weeks.

    It was tough. The weather was hot, the kids were as bratty as usual, and for those three weeks I had absolutely no free time. But at the same time, it was rewarding. I befriended a kid who was far from in the best physical shape, but always tried hard whenever we would get an athletic event together. I gave him a nickname, "Terminator", which he enjoyed. We talked about things together, and near the last day of camp, we put together a contraption designed to keep an egg from breaking as it was dropped from progressively higher distances.

    On the last day of camp, I was looking forward to a celebratory meal, followed by sleeping for the entire weekend. But right before I left, the kid came up and gave me something. It was a piece of paper, the tough, pretty kind, with two pictures attached to it and a bit of artwork. They were of our contraption and the unspoiled egg. It said "Patrick and GH, 1st place, egg drop."

    Was it taxing? Yes. But was it worth it? Absolutely.
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  11. #11
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    I wouldn't worry about the babbling syndrome, if you're both lawyers you are probably cold, harsh, bloodsuckers anyway.

    And listen to Adrian, do not become one of those couples that raise pets as if they are children, gah!
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    Tree Killer Senior Member Beirut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    If you do not want a child do not have a child.

    Keep your freedom, enjoy it and the time you and your woman have free to yourselves. I've got two kids and all I know is that there is life before kids, and there is life after kids, and one has no relation to the other. Don't get me wrong, I love my kids, I'm just saying that taking care of them year after year really is a big deal and it absolutely changes your entire life. So if you ain't ready for it, don't do it.

    "Adopt" a couple of kids in the Foster parents Plan, help out local kids charities. If you've got some cash there are millions of kids who are already alive and desperately need help. You and your wife could be saints and help those kids out. That's no small thing.
    Unto each good man a good dog

  13. #13
    The Usual Member Ice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian II View Post
    Those people are mostly fools to begin with. Give them a cat or a dog and they will drool over that.

    'Oh look, Fifi wants you to get up so she can sit in her favourite chair. Yes, she knows we're talking about her. Don't you, Fifi?'
    .


    I have a friend just like this.



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    Member Centurion1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    You said you wanted a kid eventually right. your wife said she was worried about health riskas which are valid starting around 35. now i don't mean to be rude but i assume you are taking measures to not have children (contraceptives), so why not stop using prevention and just see what happened. Maybe you will have kid right away and maybe you won't. Just because you may want a child doesn't mean yo have to go all out trying. The truth is that while you may think you don't want a child right now, if it is born you will love it just as much as if he or she was planned out.

    Don't wait too long if you are sure you want a child though. You don't want to fight off your teenage daughter's suitors or try to control your hooligan son when you are pushing towards 60.
    My dad is around 60 and he can kick the lving &%^# out of me......
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    Last edited by Centurion1; 09-01-2009 at 01:09.

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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Cool Re: Go forth and multiply

    I'm 36 in October. Have a 4 year old. So similar age to yourself when the main event kicked off. Life doesn't stop, it does get more draining and demanding but the ROI is often massive.

    Now he could pronounce Games Workshop since age 2, and has been helping me basecoat minatures since 3 and a half. I like teaching him not to be so rigid in his thinking and to understand alternatives can be fun. At the same time he can be exhausting and getting time to watch movies with my wife or have a quiet coffee together is interesting from a logistics point of view. I am now an expert in running kids ragged until they fall down in a comatose sleep so I can have a quad-shot cappucino and talk with the wife.

    Learning is Life, Life is Learning. Teaching is a great way to Learn. One thing I have found is that I have a much better relationship with my parents and appreciate what they did for me (and I didn't leave home till I was 26).

    The only real bit of advice that I can give you if you intend on having kids is.
    1) Get fit, they really can drain you and being unfit will just highlight this and be a poor example to them.
    2) Enjoy your sleep now. There is nothing like a 1m tall organic alarm clock that gets into bed in the morning, puts its cold feet on the small of your back and tells you to get out of bed and go to work so they can snuggle up to mum.
    Last edited by Papewaio; 09-01-2009 at 07:05. Reason: Spelling...
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    the G-Diffuser Senior Member pevergreen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by Papewaio View Post
    Now he could same Games Workshop since age 2, and has been helping me basecoat minatures since 3 and a half.
    I wish I was babywaio.

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  17. #17
    Friend of Lady Luck Member Mooks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by Beirut View Post
    If you do not want a child do not have a child.

    Keep your freedom, enjoy it and the time you and your woman have free to yourselves. I've got two kids and all I know is that there is life before kids, and there is life after kids, and one has no relation to the other. Don't get me wrong, I love my kids, I'm just saying that taking care of them year after year really is a big deal and it absolutely changes your entire life. So if you ain't ready for it, don't do it.

    "Adopt" a couple of kids in the Foster parents Plan, help out local kids charities. If you've got some cash there are millions of kids who are already alive and desperately need help. You and your wife could be saints and help those kids out. That's no small thing.
    I agree with this. Plus the adopted kid doesnt have to be a little baby, could be as old as 7, probaly alot easier then a baby.

    My advice though is to not have a baby. Seems like your life is already pretty happy.
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  18. #18
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    My advice? Start "experimenting" with the contraception.

    Play "condom russian roulette", where you have 6 condoms, one that you've punctured with a needle. Thrown them on the floor, then pick a random one. Similar method with birth control pills.

    If a pregnancy occurs, then it occurs. If not, then it doesn't. Stop planning, let nature decide.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 09-01-2009 at 09:00.
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  19. #19
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by Beirut View Post
    "Adopt" a couple of kids in the Foster parents Plan, help out local kids charities. If you've got some cash there are millions of kids who are already alive and desperately need help. You and your wife could be saints and help those kids out. That's no small thing.
    Ya I got a few. Well two. I also have two Moldavian grannies of which one turned out to be dead for quite some time. Ahhh charity organisations.
    Last edited by Fragony; 09-01-2009 at 09:15.

  20. #20
    Clan Clan InsaneApache's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Prepare to be tired out for the first two years. Also be prepared to be skint for another sixteen on top of that. I won't mention all the mess, vomit, and piss. Oh go on then I will!

    On a serious note, don't stop at one. An only child is tantamount to child abuse in my book.
    Last edited by Banquo's Ghost; 09-01-2009 at 18:36. Reason: Language
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  21. #21
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Ya I got a few. Well two. I also have two Moldavian grannies of which one turned out to be dead for quite some time. Ahhh charity organisations.
    I pictured you sitting in your nice Amersfoort apartment writing checks to a dead Moldavian granny. And fell off my chair laughing. Fragony finally decides to do something for mankind: he draws his wallet. And fires a blank.

    :rolfcopter:
    Last edited by Adrian II; 09-01-2009 at 15:26.
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  22. #22
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    TC, if you don't have children, this is what you'll be contributing to.


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  23. #23
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    "Go forth and multiply". I'm glad you named your thread with that title, because it points up your (our) dilemma: going forth and multiplying was unavoidable until 50 years ago, unless you decided to live alone as a hermit in the woods. It was a "command" driven by biology, and a duty incurred by merely breathing/existing.

    But not anymore. Now we can choose. Therefore, we must choose; a situation not encountered by our great-grandfathers.

    So, you started out with 2 jobs: son, and human. Human is always gonna be there. "Son" takes up less time now than it did 20 years ago. You took up "Husband" 10 years ago, and "Lawyer" pretty soon afterwards. Both volunteer jobs. And apparently mastered well enough that you now have enough free time that you're thinking about another volunteer job: "Father" (and good on ya that you understand your Husband job entails thinking about your spose's prospects as "Mother", too.).

    Will the "dad" job interfere with your other jobs? Sure, but you'll get the hang of it, just like you did with Lawyer and Husband. After the initial shock of just how much time and treasure is involved, you'll slide into the role just fine, cuz... well, we're designed for it. And you're a mindful kinda guy, as evidenced by your OP thoughts, so I'm not in the least worried that you'd be neglectful or abusive, or anything but a fine Father.

    So, my advice? I see nothing holding you back.

    Here's a tip from an old guy: the real payoff on the Dad gig is grandkids. After 2 decades of commitment to your kids, and maybe a little gratitude along the way, being a respected, trusted, relied-upon grandfather to your grandson, pays double for all the misery, toil, and drudgery of fatherhood.

    All that said: I know you'll make the right decision for the missus and you, and back up whatever you decide 100%. Best of luck, whichever way you go.

    And I'm intrigued by HoreTore's idea of condom russian roulette. :)

    -edit-
    You asked for perspective and backround. I chose to have kids at age 22 (spouse 20). Am the bio-Dad of 2 girls, from that decision. Have been the step-dad of 4 others, after the divorce of that original marriage. Now the grumpa of 2 7-year old boys, one from the bio-daughter, 1 from a step-son.
    Last edited by KukriKhan; 09-01-2009 at 14:38.
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  24. #24
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    I think you sum up the factors in making a decision about having children well. But you have to decide.

    If you decide to have children - the decisions start to come thick and fast - with everyone and no-one having all the answers
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  25. #25
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow View Post
    (Note: This is a thread seeking advice on whether to have children. You'll probably want to skip it unless that interests you.)
    I sympathise.

    I am early thirties, my better half is the same age, and we are as yet childless. I too have a great life without children, I enjoy my us-time, my pub time, my mountain bike time, my computer time, my reading time, and my just want to be alone time, and i definitely see this as being wrecked by child time.

    My better half has shall we say; a greater enthusiasm for parent-hood and a similar sense of time running out, however there are no deadlines or demands on her part.

    I also get distinctly bored by typical conversation and lack of options with people with kids (tho maybe not a representative sample IRL), and certainly don't want me and the better half to end up the same way.

    I have nothing in principle against the idea of being a dad, but no enthusiasm either, and certainly the answer is always "not now" whenever the question has been considered.

    In short, matters are unresolved, and while they remain unresolved we continue to have a good life, can you see where this is going*?









    * rapid separation is one possibility :p
    Last edited by Furunculus; 09-01-2009 at 21:32.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  26. #26
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    So overall it seems that the more selfish you are the less likely you are to want children. I wonder if this is the foundation for those who try to live vicariously through their children.

    I'm trying to avoid a rant here but I can't say I'm impressed.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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  27. #27
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Life changes when you have children. You see things differently.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  28. #28
    A very, very Senior Member Adrian II's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    Life changes when you have children. You see things differently.
    Yeah, with green baby doodoo on your spectacles and two inch bags under your eyes for lack of sleep, you see things very, but very differently. Don't worry, you'll come out a stronger and better man.
    Last edited by Adrian II; 09-01-2009 at 20:46.
    The bloody trouble is we are only alive when we’re half dead trying to get a paragraph right. - Paul Scott

  29. #29
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Many thanks for the replies, it's good to know our feelings are not unusual. My wife and I are not sure what we'll do yet, and we likely won't know the answer for several years yet, but just talking about it in detail is cathartic.

    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneApache View Post
    On a serious note, don't stop at one. An only child is tantamount to child abuse in my book.
    That's very amusing, because my wife and I are both only children. We love being only children a great deal, and that's one of the main reasons we would only want one child at the most.


  30. #30
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Go forth and multiply

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir View Post
    So overall it seems that the more selfish you are the less likely you are to want children. I wonder if this is the foundation for those who try to live vicariously through their children.

    I'm trying to avoid a rant here but I can't say I'm impressed.
    not impressed with whom?
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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