Are wiccans a bunch of dillusionnal people?

[Meneldil]

Now, I'm not going to quote any article or nothing.

I just happen to be faced by someone (my girlfriend) who is pretty found of the whole wiccan thingy. So bad that she plans to go to Ireland to find the 'roots' of this so-called religion.

Now, honestly, I'm tempted to tell her she's stupid sometimes, but honestly, what can I say? She keeps spouting the usual wiccan mumbo-jumbo (Wicca is the first religion on earth, it was practiced 4000 years ago. See, it's all written on these stones that nobody - but us - can read). I keep pointing her to historians who proved and prove all this is nothing short of crazy, she won't even try to rethink about it.

What's deeply saddening is that she's also bringing in the conversation things about Islam, Christianity while she obviously has no clue about it, and that I think I know more about Wicca after reading 2 articles on internet than she does after reading countless books on the topic.

Is there anyway I could definitely prove her wrong, or am I doomed to facepalm and roll my head over the keyboard each time she talks about it?

[Ronin]

to quote the comedian Ron White..

'ya can´t fix stupid'

either put up with it or get a new girlfriend...someone so far off the deep end that she is actually planning a trip around fairy tales isn´t gonna be dissuaded by logic arguments.

[Samurai Waki]

Actually Wicca isn't that old at all, roughly going into it's mid fifties. It was popularized by Gerald Gardner, as a counterpoint in Esoteric Practice such as the bit older Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, and it's mean older brother Aleister Crowley's Ordo Templi Orientis. True the roots of the religion are ancient, but esotericism is also at the roots of Judaism, and therefore at the roots of Christianity. Wiccans, unlike the other Esoteric focused "religions" (a term which should be used loosely), focus primarily on influencing earth bound forces, which isn't any more dillusional than Christianity's belief in absolute love of Jesus Christ, and sacrifice of self in order to make the world a better place, and attain eternal bliss in the afterlife. The whole credo of Wicca is "an it harm none, do what ye will".

There isn't any official right way, or wrong way to believe in the basic tenets of Wicca, the foundation of the mythology isn't really that much different, than the triple aspect of god in Christianity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) vs. Wicca's (Maiden, Mother, Crone) really just a reverse in "sexes". Then of course there is the "Horned God" that represents the male aspect of the religion, much like "Satan" represents the Female Aspect of Christianity. The exception of course, is that the Horned God isn't necessarily evil in nature, but represents the dangers of losing self in the fragile state of human mortality.

As far as the "magick" shpiel is concerned, and seems to be a major focus for Wicca fanboys/girls. From an atheist, or agnostic perspective it's definitely weird, or downright dillusional. However, it's not that much different than mass, congregation, blessing, and the strangely dillusional exorcisms that Christians, and particularly Catholics seem so fond of. The entire basis of Magick is forcing one's will upon another, to change certain events, obviously, everybody does this, whether they know it or not, through your will (human action and interaction) you can change the course of any number of string of events. The practice of magick is quite simply, and dissapointingly enough to any fanboy, a ritualized version of this. Of course, Wiccans believe that through the ritual, they may have a stronger influence on the events, but from an agnostic's perspective, it's really just intuitive foresight.

As far as dealing with Wiccans, or people on the cusp of believing Wicca. Most people grow out of it, but those that don't, you just have to take it, or leave it. I'm sorry Melendil, but fact and religion rarely agree with one another, especially in the mythology department. But you would be better served by letting her find out the answer for herself.

[drone]

Is this the same girl from Canada? Might be time to bail on this one.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Buy a druid outfit and drive her around Bretagne.


You and her will be sure to enjoy it. Then near the end of the trip, she can ask you why you are not happy, and then she can manipulate you into submission again.


But seriously. Reason can not outlogic religion. It doesn't work, never. You'll just have to live with it.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I'm not very à la mode with Web 2.0, but I wouldn't call Wiccans delusional - it's just not a very accurate encyclopedia. And she doesn't need to come to Ireland to edit it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Adrian II]

Is there anyway I could definitely prove her wrong, or am I doomed to facepalm and roll my head over the keyboard each time she talks about it?

I'm not going to tell you to dump her or not, that is entirely your business. But I would say that she is compensating for something. Find out what that is and try to address it. That's my two cents, in all modesty, because who are we to judge your personal issues.

[Meneldil]

Wow, I've been writing a 5 pages long paper in which I quote various historians, sociologists, and even wiccans who reject the whole 'Wicca has been here forever' theory. I've even included a part about the Mithraic Mysteries (I hardly remember why now).

It was exhausting, but interesting. If she doesn't change her mind with that (and she won't), then I don't know what to do.
I'm now tempted to buy a book on this topic just to make sure I'm even more right than I think I am.

As for dumping her, I don't think dumping your relationship whenever you disagree on a certain topic is the best idea ever, 'cause I'm never going to find someone with whom I'll agree all the time.

I'm not going to tell you to dump her or not, that is entirely your business. But I would say that she is compensating for something. Find out what that is and try to address it. That's my two cents, in all modesty, because who are we to judge your personal issues.

[Adrian II]

I'm now tempted to buy a book on this topic just to make sure I'm even more right than I think I am.

Please don't. Forget the book and everything you have read. Try to figure out what she's saying to you and others when she speaks of this wicca thingy. Not the words, the emotional message.

I know this sounds all touchy-feely like, but it has helped me understand people more than once when they acted as if they were off their rocker.

[Askthepizzaguy]

What makes Wicca any different than other religions?

[Centurion1]

^ it is fairy tales and they steal influences from like celts, greeks, romans.

[Askthepizzaguy]

^ it is fairy tales and they steal influences from like celts, greeks, romans.

What makes Wicca any different than other religions?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Everyone who believes in something flaky has their reasons. It satisfies them in some way.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The question is, what makes one belief flaky, and another not? I'm genuinely curious.

People know what I think, but I would like to know... among those with belief, what beliefs are taboo and why?

[LittleGrizzly]

All the Wiccans I know do it to be a bit different (usually eager to let people know as well) and somehow intellectual (they both thought they were smarter than they were) they also both played the victim card (I pointed out the 'witches' that were burned were nessecarily anything to do with Wiccer)

I don't want to stereotype Wiccans (too much) but those two were a little harmless and delusional... they both could easily resist logical arguments against Wiccer, just brush them off...

[lars573]

I've always though of Wicca as a modern reconstruction of WASP/celtic paganism. You know the pagans who didn't write crap down like the germanic/greek/latin/near brown pagans. That is a BIG over compensation.

As to your specific problem. If it really bothers you, bail. Right the hell now. If however the booty is good and you can deal with it. Stay. But I'd advise you to call it (Wicca) like you see it (steaming pile of equine excrement) when ever she brings it up.

[Hosakawa Tito]

One of my female colleagues at work is a Wiccan. She doesn't seem any more weird than the rest of us. You just have to accept people the way they are. witches is peoples too

[Centurion1]

The question is, what makes one belief flaky, and another not? I'm genuinely curious.

People know what I think, but I would like to know... among those with belief, what beliefs are taboo and why?

I just think it is a rather stupid and unbelievable religion. They of course have the right to practice it if they witch it just seems rather childish like they are playing at pseudo-celts.

[Adrian II]

You just have to accept people the way they are.

You're half joking as usual and I'm already half laughing at your next joke, but..

But Meneldil has a real problem in that someone every close to him is at the same time in a very remote place, to put it nicely. He can't shrug it of and say 'Oh well, to each his own'. In the privacy of their own homes people can do whatever they want, religiously speaking, but when that home is also yours it becomes a different story.

Mi prisión es su prisión, eh?

[Hosakawa Tito]

I'm just saying it is what it is. Trying to change people that don't want to change is an exercise in futility. If the relationship is not meant to be then it won't be.

[drone]

Does she weigh the same as a duck?

[LittleGrizzly]

You could always take up your own crappy new age religion and be a little crazy about it as a parody...

[Mooks]

Must be great to have such a crazy girlfriend.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Well, I had a very close female friend (but not GF) who believed in the Wicca myth. What can I say? Much of the stuff Christians believe makes no sense either, but Christianity also tends to facilitate intolerance, ignorance, and bigotry quite a bit of times, whereas Wiccans seem pretty harmless, at least for now.

I would suppose most grow out of Wicca, just as (most of us) grew out of Pokemon .

[Whacker]

My politically incorrect views:

Wicca is a made-up 'religion' of which 90% of it's adherents are middle and high school aged kids, mostly girls, who are rebelling against their parents and christian upbringings. The other 10% are people who've made it past high school and still for some reason believe in it. It's a very 'fashionable' 'religion' for younger kids in that age bracket.

As Adrian said, she's compensating. I'd posit a slightly different angle, and that is she's rebelling. All kids generally do this to various degrees in that age period as they find their own identities.

ATPG, there IS no difference between it and other religions.

Meneldil. Best thing I can say is just don't feed the beast. She's probably going to be hard and heavy into this for a year or so, that's about how long it lasted for my friends in high school. I don't think anyone made it past freshman year caring about it, because usually by that time we'd discovered new freedoms, and with them gods to worship (drugs, alcohol, cars, partying, etc). If you want to stay with her, you'll probably end up walking a fine line between not giving a rat's ass, yet indicating to her that you understand it's important to her, but you don't share her views or agree. Or something like that. Or just dump her and go date one of the hot cheerleaders.

Ahhh... high school. So long ago.

[Aemilius Paulus]

My politically incorrect views:

Wicca is a made-up 'religion' of which 90% of it's adherents are middle and high school aged kids, mostly girls, who are rebelling against their parents and christian upbringings. The other 10% are people who've made it past high school and still for some reason believe in it. It's a very 'fashionable' 'religion' for younger kids in that age bracket.

Could not be put better than that. Every part is very much true. fashionable, rebellion, growing up, girls - yes those are the defining characteristics.

Oh, and of course, one more thing to add: Wicca is "green", nature religion and thus even more "fashionable"

[Samurai Waki]

My politically incorrect views:

Wicca is a made-up 'religion' of which 90% of it's adherents are middle and high school aged kids, mostly girls, who are rebelling against their parents and christian upbringings. The other 10% are people who've made it past high school and still for some reason believe in it. It's a very 'fashionable' 'religion' for younger kids in that age bracket.

Its a pity you know so little about the subject. While you do raise a point that a large percentage of "Wiccans" seem to be rebellious teenagers, this could not actually be further from the truth. The fact of the matter is, is that unless raised by parents who also happen to be Wiccan, one cannot be a Wiccan unless fully emancipated from their parents, and are free and able to join a Coven. The idea that someone can go out, draw a Pentagram on the ground, light a few candles, say a few chants, throw some Pig's blood over their shoulders, and draw upon manna is foolish, actually it's downright ridiculous. Some people think they can just go down and buy a book, and then *poof* Magic! Doesn't work like that. Although it does help sell their books.
The Coven works much in the same way as Buddhists, or as a matter of fact, Christians become monks. They go off and learn discipline and the virtues of the faith in their temples, or monasteries. One does not declare themselves to be a witch, and it is so, it requires years of study, patience, meditation, and an understanding of Science. The idea of using "magick" is really in the same sense that Buddhist monks attempt to gain enlightenment through meditation, the exception being is that through this practice they believe that they can not only influence themselves but others around them. I reiterate, not any more delusional than other religions.
On the matter of Wiccan, and Esoteric tenets of faith, its only been less than a century ago since this wasn't considered a "science". Most, if not all Scientists during the Renaissance practiced Occultism, namely Alchemy; it was considered fundamental. And contrary to the popular theory, did not disagree with mainstream religion as a whole. The likes of Sir Isaac Newton, and Gottfried Leibniz were quite active in the Occult, Sir Isaac Newton actually attributed Gravity to Alchemy, which was considered an affront to the church because they believed Gravitational Forces could not be attributed over vast distances, unless by the will of god. It was only up until the Later stages of the Age of Enlightenment that Alchemy took to the underground, but never really went away. The likes of Albert Einstein if not a practicing Alchemist himself, was deeply intrigued by it. There is still a very high likelihood that some of the worlds most intelligent people are Occult members, they just don't like to talk about it. It isn't any your business what they believe in anyways.

An article on Wikipedia is only just scratching the surface of Wiccan beliefs, and quite frankly, wrong in some places. If you want to really get to the heart of the matter, I suggest The Book of Lies, and the Book of Law by Aleister Crowley. It gives you good insight into what Wicca/Occultism is, and what it isn't, and it's very concise in it's assessment. The founder of mainstream Wicca practiced today, Gerald Gardner, actually confessed that he created the idea to get laid by young girls, and he was very successful in that. It was only until later in his life, that the incorporation of Celtic Deism was introduced, and so it's a quite young religion. However, as far as I can tell, there was a certain prophet of a very large mainstream religion practiced all over the world today, who was himself, quite fond of young females.

So before bombarding Wicca as idiotic, or delusional, give a fair hand in judgment to any other religion. They're all totally nuts, but some people like to stay with whats safe, I for one salute this girl, for exploring her options, instead of hiding under a false security blanket.

[Adrian II]

I'm just saying it is what it is. Trying to change people that don't want to change is an exercise in futility. If the relationship is not meant to be then it won't be.

I think you don't do justice to the power of love. We are oh so reverential when it comes to te positive force of love; it's the subject of every second popsong. But love can also be an alienating, even a destructive force.

Have you never been deeply in love with someone who was 'into' something that was totally alien to you? How many people feel they have to 'share' their partner with some third party like a church, a political party, a sportsclub (or in my case, a newspaper)?

Have you never been torn apart by the awareness that you love your kid even though he or she does something truly horrible? Would you love and support your kid if they turned out a criminal? Yes, you would. You may want to deny it, but you would.

Haven't you faced the fact that if your partner in life or your kid would ever incur a debilitating sickness or suffer a debilitating accident, you would care for them for the rest of your life, even if it meant you wouldn't have a life in any real sense anymore? Or would you? Most people would.

Can you imagine that maybe Meneldil loves this girl so much that he wants this issue out of the way, not the girl herself? That maybe he feels that this relationship is meant to be? If that is the case, then there is no easy way out. Maybe no way out at all.

And people can change, for worse, also for better. I've seen it happen.

Cripes. Maybe I should be come a priest after all?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Well, beliefs in wicca are certainly delusional. There are many things without factual basis. Now, on the one hand you will find that most people have some delusional beliefs. Some people eat raw vegan food, some people believe their sports team will certainly be victorious this year, some people believe their political party is all good, etc. The human mind is prone towards deluding itself in many ways. Not all delusions are equal to others though. Maybe her belief is no big deal, maybe not, I don't know. But her personality as a whole is what you should consider, not her belief in wicca which is just one facet.

The issue I see, is whether you are going to be unable to respect her if she continues with this belief. I think a relationship requires respect.

[Idaho]

Wicca is as made up as any other religion. And like any other religion it starts of as being popular and attractive to certain demographics.

It's also as nutty and flaky as any other religion - but a bit more tolerant and nice.