The education debate

[Tribesman]

There is a reason why American universites are the best in the world.

You mean one individual American university regularly tops the table, and another individual American university jockeys with two foriegn universities for second place evary year.

Money, money, money, money, MONAY

If it was money money money Yale wouldn't struggle in the competition for second place would it.

[Strike For The South]

You mean one individual American university regularly tops the table, and another individual American university jockeys with two foriegn universities for second place evary year.

If it was money money money Yale wouldn't struggle in the competition for second place would it.

Can a man not try and rationalize his debt?

[Crazed Rabbit]

You mean one individual American university regularly tops the table, and another individual American university jockeys with two foriegn universities for second place evary year.

If it was money money money Yale wouldn't struggle in the competition for second place would it.

Well if we go by the averaged result of several tables they have at wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rankings.PNG

It would seem 15 out of the top 20 universities in the world are in the US.

I'm not opposed to the idea of paying more. I don't know what it is in the UK now, but a reasonable cost per year does discourage people from taking college frivolously. I am opposed to arbitrary targets regarding how many go from high school to college.

CR

[Beskar]

The student loan system in Britain is a very good idea. It allows you to get your degree and you start paying back when you are earning at no added interest. Since you got a degree and was actually sensible with it by getting one that leads to a career, the debt is nothing much in the long run. No parents actually pay for it or anything.

Actually, I would like to see more "Learn-to-Work" style system inplace, where employers/etc, pay towards the costs in return for you working for them in the future, thus, providing those wanting to go into certain careers not getting the debt in the first place, amongst other things.

Universities are getting more and more like a business, unfortunately and less of an education system or place of Acamedic merit. This also goes against the student, as for some reason, Universities think that 6-8 hours a week contact time in a full-time degree is acceptable.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well if we go by the averaged result of several tables they have at wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rankings.PNG

It would seem 15 out of the top 20 universities in the world are in the US.

I'm not opposed to the idea of paying more. I don't know what it is in the UK now, but a reasonable cost per year does discourage people from taking college frivolously. I am opposed to arbitrary targets regarding how many go from high school to college.

CR

It costs £30,000 a year, which is what? $50,000.

[Tribesman]

Well if we go by the averaged result of several tables they have at wikipedia:

And what do you get for a reliable average if you have two sources whose methodolgy in obtaining the results are questionable and a third source who can only be described as self promoting for their own business which uses its own interpretation of those two sources for another amalgamated result?
So is that an average of two questionable studies or an average of two questionable studies and a skewed boost?

[HoreTore]

All education, from kindergarden to university, should be completely free. In fact, the government should finance the students too.

Why? Because let's face it, a rich man doesn't produce brighter offspring than a poor man. Why would I want a rich mans idiot son to operate me, instead of the poor mans brilliant son?

Also, there's the benefit to democracy from having more educated citizens, the economy will profit from having more educated workers AND consumers, etc etc.

In fact, there's not a single thing in the world that doesn't improve with more education. So it's quite obvious that it should be available to everyone. Yes, that includes the son of a prostitute and the single mom.

[jabarto]

All education, from kindergarden to university, should be completely free. In fact, the government should finance the students too.

I agree, and I think this is most salient with physicians. One of the arguments against UHC is that doctors would be paid less, and the government could offset that by subsidizing their education so that prospective doctors aren't faced with gut-wrenching debt once they finish grad school.

Regrettably this will never happen, at least not here in America. The government doesn't want people to become educated enough to realize how badly they've been shafted for the last thirty years.

[Megas Methuselah]

All education, from kindergarden to university, should be completely free. In fact, the government should finance the students too.

Why? Because let's face it, a rich man doesn't produce brighter offspring than a poor man. Why would I want a rich mans idiot son to operate me, instead of the poor mans brilliant son?

Also, there's the benefit to democracy from having more educated citizens, the economy will profit from having more educated workers AND consumers, etc etc.

In fact, there's not a single thing in the world that doesn't improve with more education. So it's quite obvious that it should be available to everyone. Yes, that includes the son of a prostitute and the single mom.

Yes. (though I do not like the wording of that last sentence. Making it sound as if a single mom is a hooker. Bad, mane, bad)

[Meneldil]

Paying thousands of euros/dollars to get into an university is silly as hell.

[Crazed Rabbit]

All education, from kindergarden to university, should be completely free. In fact, the government should finance the students too.

Ridiculous; you'll have many kids treating college as something of no value. All students should have to pay something. Otherwise you waste the resources of the college on people who don't really care about it. You can get rid of those people by requiring them to give up something to go to college.

CR

[drone]

Why am I reminded of this?

[HoreTore]

Ridiculous; you'll have many kids treating college as something of no value. All students should have to pay something. Otherwise you waste the resources of the college on people who don't really care about it. You can get rid of those people by requiring them to give up something to go to college.

CR

Uhm.....

The average student gives up 750.000 NOK in lost income from the job they would otherwise have for a 3-year bachelor degree. I'll be giving up 1 million for my 4-year teacher education.

I think that's enough.

Also, "waste the resources of the college"? Hah, no problem, just throw another bag of oil money at them. Btw, the private schools here are inferior to the state-owned free ones...

[Meneldil]

Ridiculous; you'll have many kids treating college as something of no value. All students should have to pay something. Otherwise you waste the resources of the college on people who don't really care about it. You can get rid of those people by requiring them to give up something to go to college.

CR

Asking them to pay a fee is okay. Asking them to pay 10k or more a year is not. People shouldn't have to work a full time job to pay for the university, the rent and all the other thing a student has to do.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Ridiculous; you'll have many kids treating college as something of no value. All students should have to pay something. Otherwise you waste the resources of the college on people who don't really care about it. You can get rid of those people by requiring them to give up something to go to college.

CR

Make it free depending on your grades in college?

[Crazed Rabbit]

It costs £30,000 a year, which is what? $50,000.

Ah. Here it's $10-$15k/year for public schools in my state. Private schools can go up to $50k a year easily, but scholarships ease that for middle class students, and smart students. Smart middle class students can get $40k a year taken off.

And what do you get for a blah blah blah

Whatever tribes. Do you have a list you would recommend?

CR

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

You mean one individual American university regularly tops the table, and another individual American university jockeys with two foriegn universities for second place evary year.

When thirty-eight of the universities in a top one hundred list are American, and eleven of these in the top fifteen, they must be pretty good.

Frankly, students should pay more for education. There is concern in many countries, such as Canada, about too many students going to university. You can't make the entry tests/requirements harder, or universities will lose a lot of money and require [more] government subsidy. You can raise the cost it takes to get in - the smarter students will get scholarships so it won't have an effect upon their costs of education, and the bottom of the pack will drop off. It would still lose the university money, but probably not as much.

[Tribesman]

When thirty-eight of the universities in a top one hundred list are American

If they were the best in the world as was claimed then then there would be a hell of a lot more than just 38 in 100.
Or if you want to look at it in proportion how many American universities are there ? What proportion of those universities are not one of the 38.
Or even funnier, if you want to look at the rankings of just US universities how well do the top ones from newsweeks perception criteria fare against the lower universities when it comes to ratings from actual academic measures?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

When thirty-eight of the universities in a top one hundred list are American, and eleven of these in the top fifteen, they must be pretty good.

Frankly, students should pay more for education. There is concern in many countries, such as Canada, about too many students going to university. You can't make the entry tests/requirements harder, or universities will lose a lot of money and require [more] government subsidy. You can raise the cost it takes to get in - the smarter students will get scholarships so it won't have an effect upon their costs of education, and the bottom of the pack will drop off. It would still lose the university money, but probably not as much.

In the UK you can get into Uni on 2 D's. You can raise the requirement to B and two C's minimum, and close every university that offers courses lower than that. Pricing people out of the system is the definition of Bad Practice.

Also, you can just lower the cap on students; my university takes more every year.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

In the UK you can get into Uni on 2 D's. You can raise the requirement to B and two C's minimum, and close every university that offers courses lower than that. Pricing people out of the system is the definition of Bad Practice.

You're only pricing out the people who are barely good enough to get into university but not quite good enough to get scholarships, and you're doing it without spending a lot of tax money.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You're only pricing out the people who are barely good enough to get into university but not quite good enough to get scholarships, and you're doing it without spending a lot of tax money.

Except, that's not how it works here. I'm, frankly, quite tallented; I got nothing this year for my Master's degree.

So, learn about how much we already have to pay before you tell us how who would and wouldn't be priced out of education.

[HoreTore]

Except, that's not how it works here. I'm, frankly, quite tallented; I got nothing this year for my Master's degree.

So, learn about how much we already have to pay before you tell us how who would and wouldn't be priced out of education.

Also, this isn't just about "the best".

This is also about what society you want. Do you want one where those who already have money gets the best education, or do you want the smartest one, the most qualified one?

In my mind, it's obvious that the ones with the highest grades should get to pick first. Why do you(EMFM++) want those with money but no brains to pick first?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Except, that's not how it works here. I'm, frankly, quite tallented; I got nothing this year for my Master's degree.

So, learn about how much we already have to pay before you tell us how who would and wouldn't be priced out of education.

You think that I haven't paid for education?

This is also about what society you want. Do you want one where those who already have money gets the best education, or do you want the smartest one, the most qualified one?

That is exactly what we want, we just have a different method of assuring it. And we don't believe that everyone should be going to university.

In my mind, it's obvious that the ones with the highest grades should get to pick first. Why do you(EMFM++) want those with money but no brains to pick first?

Not what we said, was it?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You think that I haven't paid for education?



That is exactly what we want, we just have a different method of assuring it. And we don't believe that everyone should be going to university.



Not what we said, was it?

Little Catrin spent a year in Germany, she told me two things.

1. Her German was better than the natives, and

2. You guys don't get out of university until the late 20's

I'm 22, I graduate with my Masters in January. I'm already taking one year out for my PhD, but I'd like to start work before I'm 30, thatnks.

[HoreTore]

That is exactly what we want, we just have a different method of assuring it. And we don't believe that everyone should be going to university.

So why require people to have money instead of brains in order to take higher education?

[Beskar]

In the UK you can get into Uni on 2 D's.

ROFL, what degree is that? It is from something like Thames Valley university on some left-over spot filler course no one wants. You can't compared such examples to real universities.

As for degrees themselves ontop, a person with 2D's could not possibly even aim to achieve above a 3rd class degree (the educational equalivant of turning up to an exam, possibly sober) so they would be leave University with a just a debt.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

ROFL, what degree is that? It is from something like Thames Valley university on some left-over spot filler course no one wants. You can't compared such examples to real universities.

As for degrees themselves ontop, a person with 2D's could not possibly even aim to achieve above a 3rd class degree (the educational equalivant of turning up to an exam, possibly sober) so they would be leave University with a just a debt.

That would be agricultural college, which is funded like a small university.

[Beskar]

Agricultural College could be diploma's and foundation degrees, right?

If I am honest, if they are able to perform well enough to get the qualitications, I have no problems with it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Agricultural College could be diploma's and foundation degrees, right?

If I am honest, if they are able to perform well enough to get the qualitications, I have no problems with it.

Nope, BSc, my sister decided to go to Bristol instead. She got 2 A's and a B, we're very proud.