Well, yeah, the doctrine of "Absolute Depravity" is absolutely depraved.
Well, yeah, the doctrine of "Absolute Depravity" is absolutely depraved.
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
No, have another look at what I wrote. In its original form it was purely an acknowledgement of human fallability and our entirely subjective and individual viewpoints. That is a doctrine entirely compatable and agreeable to traditional catholic belief. HOWEVER, the way it was propogated led to its perversion.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
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Well, I'm of course referring to its calvinist incarnation.
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
I don't mean to present that as an argument, it was just a response to those asking how I could be so confident in what I believe.
Each of these groups of Christians believes that their own beliefs are right. I believe that what I believe is rooted firmly in the scripture. Catholics believe the Pope is infallible. The Orthodox believe they are the only true continuation of the early church.
Just because we have doctrinal differences doesn't mean we don't believe each other to be Christians, although it does become an issue with the more major differences. But yeah, obviously we each have our own understanding of things which we belive to be correct. Just like Muslims, Buddhists, and atheists do. The only difference is that some systems are more exclusive than others, however I dont' think this is a fair justification for dismissing them.
To argue that God does not reveal any sort of truth to anyone is intolerant. To argue that there is no absolute truth which any person can claim to know is intolerant.
Everyone is intolerant, if intolerant means not accepting other people's beliefs as right. I would say I'm tolerant since I let people go about their business with their other beliefs, but that doesn't mean I should have to accept them as being right. There's a difference between tolerance and acceptance.
I don't think that this is true given the pretty black-and-white view Calvin had on the nature of man. While most people today generally think of good and evil as being sort of opposite forces, with a neutral bit in the middle; Calvin argues that sin is anything short of perfect righteousness, as the scripture appears to do so as well. And so to fall short of the glory of God, is to be sin.
As for our redeeming features which he mentions, I remember one passage where he argues how even "the Turks" have certain good attributes amongst their people, noting that some of their rulers were generous, others were great conquerors etc. However, he goes on to argue that these are in no way an integral part of their nature, but instead gifts given to them from God. He then goes on to say how God will hold his blessings against them in the day of judgement. In this respect, he seems to be echoing Jesus sentiments of how those towns which are blessed with hearing the gospel and do not repent will have it held against them at judgement day, and he says it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gamorrah than it will for them.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
There is a fundamental difference between being less than perfect, and being utterly wretched. Calvin argued more for the former than the latter. His invective is what clouds the issue, and it was irrelevant to his point.
Also, to Sin, and "to be Sin" are completely different. One is to offend against God by turning away from him; the other is to be the turning away oneself, to be inherently evil. Since all proceeds by the consent of the Father man could only be inherently evil if that was the Will of God.
That would mean that God had actively willed something to be evil; which would make him evil. This, I expect, Iis the crux of rvg's comment. If God is evil he is not God, he is the Devil.
This assumes that "their true nature" is not a gift from God. I refer you to the Creed:As for our redeeming features which he mentions, I remember one passage where he argues how even "the Turks" have certain good attributes amongst their people, noting that some of their rulers were generous, others were great conquerors etc. However, he goes on to argue that these are in no way an integral part of their nature, but instead gifts given to them from God. He then goes on to say how God will hold his blessings against them in the day of judgement. In this respect, he seems to be echoing Jesus sentiments of how those towns which are blessed with hearing the gospel and do not repent will have it held against them at judgement day, and he says it will be more tolerable for Sodom and Gamorrah than it will for them.
I Believe in one God,If man's inherent nature were evil then he would not be a child of God, unless God's children are inherently evil.
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
"If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."
[IMG]https://img197.imageshack.us/img197/4917/logoromans23pd.jpg[/IMG]
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Speaking most likely as the only person living in the same county as this hoax the consensus today in the Pub were I had my few beers was incredulity.
This fellow is charging 60 euro a pop apparently to tell you things you want to hear as some kind of fortune teller. The majority of the people are turning up to this vision lark are coming for the craic to be honest.
Here is the local papers take on it
They slew him with poison afaid to meet him with the steel
a gallant son of eireann was Owen Roe o'Neill.
Internet is a bad place for info Gaelic Cowboy
There is a difference between a sin and being sin, hence why some people say hate the sin and not the sinner. But Calvin clearly argues that we are sin. I'm too run down right now to look it up, but he argues with one passage where Paul calls various iniquities that he lists as being the "fruits of sin".
God made Adam with free will, and it was only after he chose sin we arrive at where we are now. Everyone that sins is a slave to sin etc. So God's actual creation can't be said to be evil.
The only real difference between Calvinism and Arminianism etc is that in Calvinism, we are able to use our own free will to lose our free will.
Last edited by Rhyfelwyr; 11-04-2009 at 23:07.
At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.
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